I do plenty of preaching. Some of the folks on here want nothing to do with the Grace Gospel that I preach. You'd be one of them Nangster.
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I do plenty of preaching. Some of the folks on here want nothing to do with the Grace Gospel that I preach. You'd be one of them Nangster.
Hey, Nangster, has LA ever made one of her infamous "Death Predictions" about you?
I was the recipient of one of those infamous predictions. A beheading no less.
LA is our "Resident Nostradamus."
I rest my case.
heir
TOL Subscriber
My final authority is the pure words of the Lord in the King James Bible (Psalms 12:6-7 KJV). It’s not my words or regurgitated made up terms in some church statement of faith or commentary written by men, but the word of God that is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (Hebrews 4:12 KJV). Why would you want me to put forth anything, but the word of God? Good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple (Romans 16:18 KJV). People are enticed with words of man’s wisdom (1 Corinthians 2:4 KJV, 1 Timothy 4:1 KJV, 2 Timothy 4:3-4 KJV). I’ve seen a number of faithful teachers fall prey. I’m not about to be spoiled by entertaining such talk (Colossians 2:8 KJV). I’ll stick with my KJB and particularly that which applies directly to me in the form of sound words that I have heard of Paul in Romans through Philemon (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:2 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:7 KJV, 2 Timothy 4:2 KJV, 2 Timothy 4:5 KJV).
Paul writes that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV) and that is that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day. Paul declares it in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV as the gospel by which we are saved. Our salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV). You wouldn’t be the first and you won’t be the last to oppose it. For your sake, I hope you have trusted the Lord after hearing and believing it (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV).
I don’t know what you are talking about as I believe one must first be saved in order to serve the Lord. One cannot serve to be saved. Most of the threads I involve myself in are those that would put forth the preaching of the cross as God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4 KJV) and of sound doctrine as I believe our reward is directly related to such (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV, 2 Timothy 4:7-8 KJV).
They testify the gospel of the grace of God, are set in defence of the gospel and are making all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery. Who are your “allies”? To answer your last question, I do not believe hate plays a role in the word of reconciliation although I can see where the apostle Paul used choice words to get his point across at the gospel perverters (Acts 13:10 KJV, Galatians 1:8-9 KJV) as warnings, but this was out of sorrow not hate (Romans 9:1-3 KJV, Romans 12:9 KJV, Philippians 3:18-19 KJV).
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Do you think it correct to base your faith in antimony or fact? What good is presuppostional hermenuetics that are founded on admitted paradox and the unexplainable?
Wrong. Clark champions logic and dispels reverting to antimony, ever.
Hardly. Clark stood for Logos versus paradox, in the face of losing his office and standing in the OPC.
Yes, which it always is . . .
Why would he alter his doctrine, upon the grounds of doctrine presuppostionally grounded in paradox and antinomy? No . . Clark stood his ground on the presupposition that Godly Truth is revealed to man, according to that same Truth. No mystery. All light. All reasonable truths of God, given to men in the form that is intellectually understood by them by the powers of enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.
How many Clarkian works have you read?
That is the M.O. of the neo-Calvininists, such as R.C. Sproul and company.
You spout your own erroneous presuppositions, and attempt, but cannot succeed, to pass them off as being the beliefs and fault of all Calvinists, in any way, shape, or form.
You can keep accusing Reformers of this, but many of us (Clarkians) know better, and can defend ourselves from your false claims.
You are really just wasting your time, trying to sell your Open Theology views, and put down Reformers, who hold to a higher standard of reasonable thought, even higher than your own.
EXCELLENT POST Sister.
Heir is one of the few Posters on TOL who speaks the truth of the Grace Gospel. (Paul's Gospel) I appreciate everything about her. She has dignity, wisdom, knowledge from on high and Spiritual discernment. I admire her Testimony.
.....and a denier of the Deity of Christ.
Yep!
To the extent that Till does that, it isn't valid. The rational cannot be predicated on the contradictory.
His presuppositional argument for the existence of God is not predicated on the Calvinist version of God but merely on the existence of God and the nature of logic.
It isn't wrong...
According to Gordon Clark, the issue of biblical paradox is totally subjective. What may be paradoxical to one may not be to another (The Atonement, 32). He says that a Biblical paradox is nothing more than “a charley-horse between the ears that can be eliminated by rational massage.” (The Philosophy of Gordon Clark, edited by Ronald Nash, 78).
I have a whole collection of articles about and by Gordon Clark and have quoted him extensively on this forum for several years. I know what he teaches because I've actually read many of his writings. I am not wrong.
I didn't suggest otherwise. In fact, I said as much and give him credit for being the most intellectually consistent Calvinist that the world has ever produced. But if you think that because he stated a belief that there are no paradoxes in the bible that he rejected all the paradoxes in his theology, you'd be flatly wrong. He did not do that. He simply conceded that there was something we humans didn't understand, about that aspect of God. That there was missing information, not a contradiction. And that's where he and a lot of otherwise well meaning Christians go astray. They are willing to accept doctrine with or within reason. If the doctrine is rational that's great but if it isn't they'll rationalize in some fashion to make it work. Gordon held that Clavinism is true and that logic works. Were those two truths collided, he held to the doctrine and proclaimed that there was no real contradiction and that the deficit was not in scripture but in our understanding of it, yet without the willingness to alter his understanding.
That's a fine thing to say but Calvinists use it as a broad sword that they swing at anything that contradicts their doctrine, not the plain reading of scripture! It is to their doctrine that Calvinists are true, not the scripture.
Clark was not the presupositionalist, Van Til was. Gordon wanted things to be rational but did not consistently allow the rational conclusions to sway his doctrinal beliefs.
It was lip service, Nang! But admittedly not to the degree that is true of average Calvinists like yourself. Clark I think actually tried to find rational arguments but when none could be found he did not alter his doctrine, he simply wrote it off as unexplainable due to a lack of information or intelligence or whatever.
I have a whole collection of various article and have read lots of those. I've read his textbook on logic and I've read portions of The Philosophy of Gordon Clark which is not a book by him but rather a book that includes essays that he gave. So, there's more of what he wrote that I haven't read than what I have but I've read enough to be familiar with what he taught and how he thought. Practically the whole of Calvinism's establishment types bent over backward to get the guy discredited and removed from his professorship because they were afraid of his adherence to rational thought and so its sort of a dangerous thing for you to even be citing him. He was barely a Calvinist and wouldn't have been one at all had he been just 1% more corragious than he was and allowed his keen mind to persuadge him that a just God cannot predestine people to Hell.
Every single Calvinist does it. You do it, AMR does it. Dr. Lamerson does it, Clark did it, Van Til did it, R.C Sproul does it, every Baptist minister I've ever met does it. They all do it. They have to or else their doctrine cannot work.
Sovereign, for example, does not mean meticulous control of everything that happens. Sovereign simply means "highest authority". There isn't a Calvinist anywhere that would accept that definition even though it's completely accurate and true.
Any exception would only serve to prove the rule, Nang.
And my position on God giving us a choice is not a presupposition its just the plain reading of Scripture. The bible explicitly states that God sets before us life and death and pleads with us to choose life. It's not a presupposition when the bible explicitly states it. I am presupposing that the bible means it when it says it, is that what you meant? You, on the other hand, presuppose that we have no ability to choose and understand that the passage means the opposite of what it says. That when God says to choose life, it means that we don't have a choice because we've been predestined to heaven or hell, life or death and that it had nothing to do with anything we did or didn't do. God predestined it because He wanted to and for no other reason. And so Deuteronomy 30:19 is either meaningless or an antinomy or both or Calvinism is false. You are, in fact, that trapped by one single bible verse.
But you never ever do. :think:
Go ahead and do it, if you can, Nang!
Make the argument that shows how a belief that a just God can predestine someone to Hell before He ever created them and for no reason at all that had anything to do with the person's actions.
“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)
“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
Show me the argument, Nang! How can such a God be just?
The only way you can do it is to redefine the word "just", which is exactly what Calvinists have done for 400 years.
Right, the standard you've got is...
"Truth cannot be understood or made any sense of by us mere humans. It's not for us to understand everything but to accept what we are taught by faith. To accept Calvinism is to accept Christianity and to reject one is to reject the other. Calvinism is the Christian faith, everything else is a lie which, if you accept it, its because God predestined you to Hell fire and you couldn't have believed Calvinism if you had wanted to."
Resting in Him,
Clete
Nang
TOL Subscriber
How can you, as a professing Christian, even ask the question? All those gifted with faith to believe in God and His Word, confess He is just. There is no reason for me to argue that truth with you, if you are His child, is there?
All that God is, and all that God has revealed about His Person and His intents and His promises, are accepted by regenerated souls, through the witness of His Holy Spirit who indwells us and enlightens us to the divine truths provided in the Holy Scriptures.
Van Til says such divine truth is different than what the mortal can comprehend, but Scripture promises believers the Holy Spirit will lead them into all truth. John 16:13-14.
Now, all through my discussions with you, I have attempted to discern what your gripe is regarding my biblical beliefs, and I come up with only two possibilities:
1. You believe that salvation is and should be presented as universal.
2. You deny the attributes of God, and desire to bring Him down to a lower and human level.
Either motivation, is sorry and blasphemous.
And I do not care to be drug down into your lower levels of understanding and suffer your hatefulness exhibited towards my own beliefs.
I felt that way from the first post I read from you, and am sorry to say you still show no love or respect for those who do not hold to your heresy.
So be it . . .
Gordon Clark never changed his views because of opposition from others, and neither will I. So give it up, as far as I am concerned. You will never convince me to turn away from the Holy Scriptures or the Reformed Confessions of Faith.
The Gospel given to Paul, By Jesus by revelation of the GospelGiven in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
I want to take this opportunity to tell you that I've been very suspicious of you for sometime now, in fact, I'd even go so far as to say that you're a fraud.
Let me give these reasons for that statement:
You're very undefined when it comes to stating what it means to be a Christian, i.e. a follower of Christ. While you use many verses from Scripture, from what I've seen, you never use your own words.
(Did I mention that heir never uses her own words when it comes to stating what it means to be a Christian?). I take back my earlier fraud statement, respectfully, I think you have mental issues.
Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarriorFrom what I've seen you believe that "faith" in Jesus Christ alone makes one a Christian. What exactly does that mean, i.e faith that He died on the cross and rose from the dead, ascending into Heaven?
Let me get this straight: believing that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day automatically makes one a Christian, i.e. a follower of Christ?
Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Two other things that raises warning flags for me about you are the following:
From what I've seen you give no credence to the good works that Christians are to do; why is that?
Are you aware that it is because Christians aren't politically active that we as a society have become morally depraved? Abortion, homosexuality, pornography, etc. etc.. Are you not concerned about those things or is your purpose here on earth solely to prepare for the afterlife?
Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
The other warning flag is the people that are your allies:
Nick M., Grosnick Marowbe, Patrick jane to name just three. Of all of the TOL'ers that I've run across, I can say without hesitation that those 3 are the biggest haters on TOL. Is hate a Christian virtue in your mind?
When Nick M. isn't "testifying, he's calling me a "faggot" and a "dyke" (poor Nick, he doesn't even know that men can't be lesbians) for telling the truth about a godless Presidential candidate. Gronick Marowbe continuously calls me a hater for standing up for God's Word and decency. Patrick Jane seems to think that Jesus embraces loving homosexual unions and accuses others who stand up for God's Word of being "a perv". Are you not bothered by the actions of your friends or are you so removed from reality that you don't care?
True followers of Christ, not people who spend day and night reciting Scripture.
Seriously, seek help.
I want to take this opportunity to tell you that I've been very suspicious of you for sometime now, in fact, I'd even go so far as to say that you're a fraud.
Let me give these reasons for that statement:
You're very undefined when it comes to stating what it means to be a Christian, i.e. a follower of Christ. While you use many verses from Scripture, from what I've seen, you never use your own words.
(Did I mention that heir never uses her own words when it comes to stating what it means to be a Christian?). I take back my earlier fraud statement, respectfully, I think you have mental issues.
Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarriorFrom what I've seen you believe that "faith" in Jesus Christ alone makes one a Christian. What exactly does that mean, i.e faith that He died on the cross and rose from the dead, ascending into Heaven?
Let me get this straight: believing that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day automatically makes one a Christian, i.e. a follower of Christ?
Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Two other things that raises warning flags for me about you are the following:
From what I've seen you give no credence to the good works that Christians are to do; why is that?
Are you aware that it is because Christians aren't politically active that we as a society have become morally depraved? Abortion, homosexuality, pornography, etc. etc.. Are you not concerned about those things or is your purpose here on earth solely to prepare for the afterlife?
Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
The other warning flag is the people that are your allies:
Nick M., Grosnick Marowbe, Patrick jane to name just three. Of all of the TOL'ers that I've run across, I can say without hesitation that those 3 are the biggest haters on TOL. Is hate a Christian virtue in your mind?
When Nick M. isn't "testifying, he's calling me a "faggot" and a "dyke" (poor Nick, he doesn't even know that men can't be lesbians) for telling the truth about a godless Presidential candidate. Gronick Marowbe continuously calls me a hater for standing up for God's Word and decency. Patrick Jane seems to think that Jesus embraces loving homosexual unions and accuses others who stand up for God's Word of being "a perv". Are you not bothered by the actions of your friends or are you so removed from reality that you don't care?
True followers of Christ, not people who spend day and night reciting Scripture.
Seriously, seek help.
:baby:
That ACW sure is a BIG baby. Have another glass of "WHINE" ACW. You're such a "Man-Child." :loser:
The Apostle Paul's Body "politic..."
Philippians 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
That was it; no running for office; no encouraging others to do so; no attempt to change one of the most depraved governments and societies in the history of civilization (rampant, out in the open homosexuality; rampant, out in the open pedophilia; rampant human trafficking; murder for sport...).
Instead, we read more of the above...
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
Culture Warrior, hunh?
Get a clue...
Philippians 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
That was it; no running for office; no encouraging others to do so; no attempt to change one of the most depraved governments and societies in the history of civilization (rampant, out in the open homosexuality; rampant, out in the open pedophilia; rampant human trafficking; murder for sport...).
Instead, we read more of the above...
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
Culture Warrior, hunh?
Get a clue...
Only by the estimation of one who has no regard for the words of Jesus.
Trying to defame another because you disagree with the teachings of the bible is a plain old satanic tactic, easily identifiable by those who know and walk with the Lord.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Not that I care much for the likes of you and your religious friends who do nothing but spit on people.
LA
It just proves that Christ is not in them.
They have their religion to protect lest they be found out.
LA