The Yahweh Name

Omniskeptical

Well-known member
Compared to the presumption that God is the Trinity, Nontrinitarianism is oversimplified. I was replying to Lon, who also accepts that the Trinity is God.

But you can make up something called an 'infinite spirit', and say whatever you want to about it, because that's what you did...

See?
God is an invisible and infinite spirit. If God's life is limited, we would all be bored for eternity. I don't make this stuff up.
 
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oatmeal

Well-known member
Greetings again oatmeal,

The inspired quotation of Psalm 8 in Hebrews 2 and the translation of Elohim into the Greek word Angels shows that the Hebrew word Elohim has a wider range of meaning than "God", depending on the context. Thus "Angels" is the correct translation in Psalm 8:5 and Hebrews 2:7 and this is also proved by the discussion in Hebrews 2 concerning the Angels and the relationship of Jesus to the Angels. The whole section of Hebrews 2 is discussing the Angels.

The Judges in Israel were also given the title Elohim and a simple comparison of the various translations of Exodus 22:8-9 will help to understand this range of meaning. Also Jacob did not wrestle with God, but an Angel Hosea 12:3-6. I am not sure what aspect of your theology is stopping you to accept Psalm 8:5 and its Divine interpretation in Hebrews 2:7. I agree that this is difficult for Trinitarians.

Kind regards
Trevor
Never the less, the best translation for Elohim in the phrase "little lower than Elohim" is God. With Christ in us,

Colossians 1:27, To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

we have the spiritual potential of Christ.

Being heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ, we are not spiritually lacking in any way as human beings.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

We are literally sons of God,

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I John 3:1-2
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

thus we are literally offspring of God, God did not father nor design mankind to be a bunch of numbskulls, (although it is clear, most of mankind has acted that way) but creatures designed to literally be sons of God by seed.

I Peter 1:23. Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We have the mind of Christ, the great mystery is something the angels desired to look into. thus we have potential that astounds even the angels.

I Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Not a single verse says otherwise, unless you begin with unbelief.
There is no genuine verse that when rightly divided supports the "deity" of Jesus Christ, nor the trinity The few verses that trinitarians use to "support" their errors have been shown time and time again not to do so. The idea that Jesus is God negates our redemption, and his status as a prophet like unto Moses. Jesus is never scripturally referred to as "God the Son" but as the son of God. There is a huge difference between the meanings of both phrases. "God the Son" is error, the son of God is rightly divided truth.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Jesus is the I Am. He said so. "I tell you the truth, before Abraham even was born, I Am!
The Trinity:

Matthew 28:19

King James Version

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
The Name, singular.

If God is Jesus Father, how can you say that He does not have the same essence?
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again oatmeal and Greetings Bright Raven,
Never the less, the best translation for Elohim in the phrase "little lower than Elohim" is God.
Rather than "best", I suggest that this is a poor or wrong translation. I cannot accept the translation "God" in Psalm 8:5 based upon the context, based upon the application in Hebrews 2 and based upon Genesis 1:26-27.
Jesus is the I Am. He said so. "I tell you the truth, before Abraham even was born, I Am!
I understand that the translation in John 8:58 should be "I am he", the same as John 8:24,28, and is part of the theme of whether or not Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God John 20:30-31. I accept that the translation of Exodus 3:14 should be "I will be" as given by Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins and many scholars. As such there is no direct link between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Greetings again oatmeal and Greetings Bright Raven,

Rather than "best", I suggest that this is a poor or wrong translation. I cannot accept the translation "God" in Psalm 8:5 based upon the context, based upon the application in Hebrews 2 and based upon Genesis 1:26-27.

I understand that the translation in John 8:58 should be "I am he", the same as John 8:24,28, and is part of the theme of whether or not Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God John 20:30-31. I accept that the translation of Exodus 3:14 should be "I will be" as given by Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins and many scholars. As such there is no direct link between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58.

Kind regards
Trevor
who is the "he" in your interpretation of "I am he."
 
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Right Divider

Body part
There is no genuine verse that when rightly divided supports the "deity" of Jesus Christ, nor the trinity
False.
The few verses that trinitarians use to "support" their errors have been shown time and time again not to do so.
False.
The idea that Jesus is God negates our redemption,
False.
and his status as a prophet like unto Moses.
False.
Jesus is never scripturally referred to as "God the Son" but as the son of God.
Irrelevant.
There is a huge difference between the meanings of both phrases. "God the Son" is error, the son of God is rightly divided truth.
Jesus is God... He is therefore... God the Son. It's just that simple.

Here is JESUS speaking:
Rev 21:7 KJV He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I understand that the translation in John 8:58 should be "I am he", the same as John 8:24,28, and is part of the theme of whether or not Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God John 20:30-31. I accept that the translation of Exodus 3:14 should be "I will be" as given by Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins and many scholars. As such there is no direct link between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58.

Kind regards
Trevor
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Doubling down FOR Christadelphians instead of Christ? THINK Trevor! Don't be a Christadelphian commercial all your life!

As a layman, it will be impossible for you to get away from Christadelphian propaganda but IF you are into honesty AT ALL notice there is a difference, even though you cannot actually read it:

Acts 10:21 ἐγώ εἰμί ον
John 8:58 ἐγώ εἰμί

Acts "he" John: Nope. Christadelphians made it up.
 

Lon

Well-known member

I get tired of repeating clear teaching. It BEGS the question of whether cultists are mentally deficient, with an overtly elevated delusion of a poor prowess and an ego that is unassailable by facts, or whether they are purposeful, as scripture says many cultists are, as false teachers with dubious reason for blasphemy. Arrogance, ego, and fierce independence are marks of cultists. Trevor, having grown up in a cult, is a victim as are all of those born under poor teaching. I'm bent between genuine concern to correct and a scripture directive to have nothing to do with false teaching nor casting pearls to be trampled.

John 20:28, among others, are CLEAR that Jesus is God: "Thomas said to Jesus, 'You are the Lord of me and God of me!'"

Oatmeal literally has no choice. It is this clear. He has no excuse, no fancy dance, no 'correct' division. He has none. Period. It says what it says, so much so that most cultists say 'a god' and admit it says what it clearly says: Jesus is god/God. It'd be braindead to suggest 'god' here by the way: "God of me." Cultists literally, cannot think. They have no brain but for naysaying what is obvious and truly given in scripture. It is both infuriating and exasperating to have to repeat this over and over and over and over. They surely know it is just this clear. It can't be any other way, and they surely must know it.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Bright Raven,
who is the "he" in your interpretation of "I am he."
The same "he" as in John 8:24,28 and John 4:25-26, the Christ.
John 4:25-26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
In the above Jesus is not claiming to be the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14 which is an incorrect translation and should be "I will be", but he is claiming to be the Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Bright Raven,
You need to get your theology cleared up.
I appreciate your perspective and the endorsement by a few others, but I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
Here is another verse in the theme:
John 1:20 (KJV): And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
Jesus confessed that he was the Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Lon

Well-known member
... BEGS the question of whether cultists are mentally deficient...or whether they are purposeful...scripture directive to have nothing to do with false teaching nor casting pearls to be trampled.

John 20:28, among others, are CLEAR that Jesus is God: "Thomas said to Jesus, 'You are the Lord of me and God of me!'"

Oatmeal literally has no choice. It is this clear. He has no excuse, no fancy dance, no 'correct' division. He has none. Period.
Which is why you are and remain on ignore. You are much too ensnared to even be able to discuss truth rationally. John 20:28 PROVES deity and you are left wanting with literally nothing but excusing platitudes. It says what it says. It IS this clear.
 

Omniskeptical

Well-known member
Which is why you are and remain on ignore. You are much too ensnared to even be able to discuss truth rationally. John 20:28 PROVES deity and you are left wanting with literally nothing but excusing platitudes. It says what it says. It IS this clear.
Do you know what John 20:28 looks like to me in Greek?
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Lon,
John 20:28 PROVES deity and you are left wanting with literally nothing but excusing platitudes. It says what it says. It IS this clear.
The word God and Hebrew Elohim is applied to both Angels and Judges, refer Psalm 8:5 and Psalm 82:6 and Jesus’ exposition in John 10:30-36 and thus the title “God” does not prove that Jesus is God the Son. A greater title is revealed a few verses later where Jesus is called THE Son of God. All else are Sons of God, and are thus inferior.
John 20:30-31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
This also proves that the Apostle John does not accept your theology, in the very book that is used by Trinitarians to claim their doctrine that is based upon 3rd and 4th Century Greek and Pagan philosophy.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Lon

Well-known member
Greetings again Lon,

The word God and Hebrew Elohim is applied to both Angels and Judges, refer Psalm 8:5 and Psalm 82:6
Hebrew
and Jesus’ exposition in John 10:30-36
Greek
and thus the title “God” does not prove that Jesus is God the Son.
Only if you confuse the two. It is a fancy dance that literally means nothing. Thomas literally said, to Jesus, that He was his Lord AND God. You nor ANY cultist can/could ever, erase that. It cannot be done.
A greater title is revealed a few verses later where Jesus is called THE Son of God.
AND God. Do you grasp that? Notice I didn't say "No." I said "And" Unitarians are often confused on what is actually argued. I'm not a tritheist. I'm Triune. Most of you don't really know what that means. It means: "Three-One." It is anti-intuitive so I get why Unitarians cannot grasp it.
All else are Sons of God, and are thus inferior.
There is only one, begotten.
John 20:30-31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Great! I agree! Do you grasp that?
This also proves that the Apostle John does not accept your theology,
Nope, it proves you don't know what a Trinitarian is. That is all it proves. John goes back and forth throughout the whole gospel saying what he said in the very first verse: "Was WITH God AND was God." Literally.
in the very book that is used by Trinitarians to claim their doctrine
YEP!
that is based upon 3rd and 4th Century Greek and Pagan philosophy.

Kind regards
Trevor
Nope. It literally comes from the Bible itself. Literally. Anybody actually understanding what John actually is saying, will come away with some kind of Triune understanding. There is literally no other position he/she 'could' come to barring complete ignorance.
 
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