The Yahweh Name

TrevorL

Well-known member
The Yahweh Name Part 1 – Initial Promise and Fulfilment
The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The Name of God was revealed to Moses in the following terms:
Exodus 3:14-15 (KJV): 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

The word “ehyeh” is in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity.

This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this future work in delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
The Yahweh Name Part 2 – The Fulfilment in our Lord Jesus Christ
The initial fulfillment was not the ultimate completion of the Yahweh Name. God’s purpose with the earth was not complete with the salvation of Israel out of Egypt. God’s purpose was declared in the following, but sadly this was spoken at a time when the very generation that had been born through God’s deliverance failed.
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

The above raises the question of how and when will the earth be filled with the glory of God. One indication is found when the Psalmist uses the same words as Moses’ Song to speak of another deliverance:
Psalm 118:14-25 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

The above is quoted at length to show that there was to be a greater salvation in fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. It is evident from the context that this salvation is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the man of God’s right hand, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The greater deliverance is revealed even in the conception and birth of the child:
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The meaning of the name Jesus is revealed: “for he shall save his people from their sins”. Was Jesus to be an independent Saviour? No, the name Jesus incorporates the Yahweh Name, Je-sous, Jo-shua, or Yah-oshea. He was to be Yahweh’s Salvation. Here then is the extension or fulfillment of the Yahweh Name, Yahweh was to be, to become. He was to “become salvation” Exodus 15:2, in and through Jesus, the Son of God. Yahweh is the Saviour, Jesus is the Saviour. In other words Yahweh, God the Father is the Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yahweh has become salvation.

Salvation is now offered in the Name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 4:10-12 (KJV): 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

keypurr

Well-known member
The Yahweh Name Part 2 – The Fulfilment in our Lord Jesus Christ
The initial fulfillment was not the ultimate completion of the Yahweh Name. God’s purpose with the earth was not complete with the salvation of Israel out of Egypt. God’s purpose was declared in the following, but sadly this was spoken at a time when the very generation that had been born through God’s deliverance failed.
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

The above raises the question of how and when will the earth be filled with the glory of God. One indication is found when the Psalmist uses the same words as Moses’ Song to speak of another deliverance:
Psalm 118:14-25 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

The above is quoted at length to show that there was to be a greater salvation in fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. It is evident from the context that this salvation is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the man of God’s right hand, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The greater deliverance is revealed even in the conception and birth of the child:
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The meaning of the name Jesus is revealed: “for he shall save his people from their sins”. Was Jesus to be an independent Saviour? No, the name Jesus incorporates the Yahweh Name, Je-sous, Jo-shua, or Yah-oshea. He was to be Yahweh’s Salvation. Here then is the extension or fulfillment of the Yahweh Name, Yahweh was to be, to become. He was to “become salvation” Exodus 15:2, in and through Jesus, the Son of God. Yahweh is the Saviour, Jesus is the Saviour. In other words Yahweh, God the Father is the Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yahweh has become salvation.

Salvation is now offered in the Name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 4:10-12 (KJV): 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor you have been set apart, your full of wisdom, God has blessed you friend. Only a few will understand your words. Keep your guard up for Satan has a lot of workers. The blind will not see the light.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
The Yahweh Name Part 1 – Initial Promise and Fulfilment
The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The Name of God was revealed to Moses in the following terms:
Exodus 3:14-15 (KJV): 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

The word “ehyeh” is in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity.

This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this future work in delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

It is Rishon, Ziv 28, Yom, Boker, Omer 43.

יהוה

Yod Hey Vav Hey
Yod Hei Vav Hei
Yud Hei Vav Hei
YHVH

Yahveh
 

CatholicCrusader

BANNED
Banned
II. GOD REVEALS HIS NAME

203 God revealed himself to his people Israel by making his name known to them. A name expresses a person's essence and identity and the meaning of this person's life. God has a name; he is not an anonymous force. To disclose one's name is to make oneself known to others; in a way it is to hand oneself over by becoming accessible, capable of being known more intimately and addressed personally.

204 God revealed himself progressively and under different names to his people, but the revelation that proved to be the fundamental one for both the Old and the New Covenants was the revelation of the divine name to Moses in the theophany of the burning bush, on the threshold of the Exodus and of the covenant on Sinai.

The living God

205 God calls Moses from the midst of a bush that burns without being consumed: "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." 9 God is the God of the fathers, the One who had called and guided the patriarchs in their wanderings. He is the faithful and compassionate God who remembers them and his promises; he comes to free their descendants from slavery. He is the God who, from beyond space and time, can do this and wills to do it, the God who will put his almighty power to work for this plan.

"I Am who I Am"

Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you', and they ask me, 'What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you'. . . this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations." 10

206 In revealing his mysterious name, YHWH ("I AM HE WHO IS", "I AM WHO AM" or "I AM WHO I AM"), God says who he is and by what name he is to be called. This divine name is mysterious just as God is mystery. It is at once a name revealed and something like the refusal of a name, and hence it better expresses God as what he is - infinitely above everything that we can understand or say: he is the "hidden God", his name is ineffable, and he is the God who makes himself close to men. 11

207 By revealing his name God at the same time reveals his faithfulness which is from everlasting to everlasting, valid for the past ("I am the God of your father"), as for the future ("I will be with you"). 12 God, who reveals his name as "I AM", reveals himself as the God who is always there, present to his people in order to save them.

208 Faced with God's fascinating and mysterious presence, man discovers his own insignificance. Before the burning bush, Moses takes off his sandals and veils his face in the presence of God's holiness. 13 Before the glory of the thrice-holy God, Isaiah cries out: "Woe is me! I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips." 14 Before the divine signs wrought by Jesus, Peter exclaims: "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord." 15 But because God is holy, he can forgive the man who realizes that he is a sinner before him: "I will not execute my fierce anger. . . for I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst." 16 The apostle John says likewise: "We shall. . . reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything." 17

209 Out of respect for the holiness of God, the people of Israel do not pronounce his name. In the reading of Sacred Scripture, the revealed name (YHWH) is replaced by the divine title "LORD" (in Hebrew Adonai, in Greek Kyrios). It is under this title that the divinity of Jesus will be acclaimed: "Jesus is LORD."

9 Ex 3:6.
10 Ex 3:13-15.
11 Cf. Isa 45:15; Judg 13:18.
12 Ex 3:6,12.
13 Cf. Ex 3:5-6.
14 Isa 6:5.
15 Lk 5:8.
16 Hos 11:9.
17 1 Jn 3:19-20.


>> http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p1.htm
 

Apple7

New member
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor




The TRINITY delivered the people out of Egypt (OT/NT):

• Yahweh Elohim (Exo 6.7, 20.2)
• Yahweh (Exo 3.4, 6.6, 3.7-8, 13, 26, 7.5, 12.17, 42, 51, 13.8, 9, 14, 16, ; Deut 1.27, 4.20, 5.6, 15, 6.12, 8.14, 9.7, Judges 2.12, 6.8, 13, 10.11; Joshua 24.6, 17; 1 Sam 8.8, 10.18, 12.6-8; 2 Sam 7.5 – 6; 1 Kings 8.9 – 16, 21, 9.9; 2 Kings 17.7, 36; Jer 2.6, 7.22, 11.4- 7, 16.14, 23.7, 31.31-32, 34.13, Psalm 81.10, 2 Chron 6.5, 7.22, Amos 2.10, 3.1, 9.7; Zech 10.10, Micah 6.4, Isa 52.12)
• Arm of Yahweh SON (Exo 6.6, 15.16, Deut 5.15, 2 Kings 17.37, Jer 32.21, Acts 13.17)
• Haelohim (all the Gods) (Exo 3.1; 1 Chron 17.21)
• Power of Yahweh SPIRIT (Deut 4.37, 2 Kings 17.37)
• Presence (Deut 4.37,
• My Hand SPIRIT (Exo 7.4-5, 13.3,9, 14, 16, Deut 5.15, 6.21, 9.26, Eze 20.6, Jer 32.21, Dan 9.15, Acts 7.35)
• Adonay Yahweh (1 Kings 8.53)
• Adoney Elohim (Dan 9.15)
• God (Acts 7.35)
• Lord (Heb 8.9)
• Debar Yahweh, The Word of God SON (Deut 5.5 – 6)
• The Word (Haggai 2.5)
• Spirit (Haggai 2.5)
• Malek Yahweh SON (Exo 3.4, Judges 2.1, Acts 7.35,)
• Jesus SON (Jude 1.5)
• I AM (Exo 3.14)
• Elohe SON (Exo 3.6, Isa 52.12)
• Father (Deut 32.6)
• Pillar SPIRIT (Exo 13.21 – 22, 14.19-24, 24.15 – 18,24; Num 9.15 – 16)
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Apple7,
The TRINITY delivered the people out of Egypt (OT/NT):
Yahweh, God the Father delivered Israel of Egypt, as He had promised when He revealed His Name. Your long list of verses prove that the OT reveals that there is only One God, Yahweh, the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Psalm 110:1 clearly distinguishes between Yahweh God the Father and Jesus, David's Lord, the Son of God who is now seated at the right hand of God.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings CatholicCrusader and Greetings again Apple7,
206 In revealing his mysterious name, YHWH ("I AM HE WHO IS", "I AM WHO AM" or "I AM WHO I AM"), God says who he is and by what name he is to be called. This divine name is mysterious just as God is mystery. It is at once a name revealed and something like the refusal of a name, and hence it better expresses God as what he is - infinitely above everything that we can understand or say: he is the "hidden God", his name is ineffable, and he is the God who makes himself close to men.
I AM (Exo 3.14)
I disagree with the above translations. I also disagree with the above description because it is very confusing and obscure and in my opinion incorrect. I believe that the Name of God, Yahweh can best be translated as "He will be or become", as described in the OP. In the rest of the OP and the second Post I have given an explanation of how this future tense is fulfilled in the deliverance from Egypt and the salvation that is available in and through Jesus, the Son of God. Part of the support for this rendition is in Exodus 3:12 and Exodus 6:1-8 - please consider these.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Apple7

New member
Greetings again Apple7, Yahweh, God the Father delivered Israel of Egypt, as He had promised when He revealed His Name.

God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit delivered His people out of Egypt.

Simple enough fact for any serious student of scripture...



Your long list of verses prove that the OT reveals that there is only One God, Yahweh, the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Psalm 110:1 clearly distinguishes between Yahweh God the Father and Jesus, David's Lord, the Son of God who is now seated at the right hand of God.

Kind regards
Trevor


You were already well-schooled in your Psalm 110 polemic, and were left wanting...

Do you have any fresh polemics, from your cult, or just the same Baker's dozen that you slavishly recycle, ad nausea...?
 

Lon

Well-known member
Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.



Kind regards
Trevor
Greetings again Lon,

The scholars who I have read state that "Ehyeh" in Exodus 3:14 is best represented by "I will be" the same as Exodus 3:12 and also necessitated by what is stated in Exodus 6:1-8, rather than speculating the full range of tenses and ideas relating to the state of being/existence. The fact that Yahweh, that is "He will be", and the fact that He was speaking to Moses, necessitates that Yahweh exists. Moses knew that Yahweh existed as he had already witnessed the Angel in the bush and heard the declaration concerning God by the Angel. So my understanding of the context weighs heavily in my conclusion. The whole theme of the forum article that I mentioned was to support the future tense of the Yahweh Name, "I will be", "He will be", mainly against those who wanted only the present tense "I Am". If and when you address Exodus 3:12 and Exodus 6:1-8 I will consider your objection.



I have confidence in the scholars that I have relied upon on this subject, some Christadelphians, some Trinitarians.

Nevertheless as a result I assess my position as "Central" with respect to Christadelphian teachings.

Kind regards
Trevor
🤔
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
The Yahweh Name (cont’d)
The previous two Posts established that Yahweh is the One God who acted to deliver Israel out of Egypt. There are many passages after these events where the Yahweh Name appears and perhaps one of the most important of these is mentioned below, and this is extensively quoted and expounded by Jesus and the Apostles.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD (Yahweh) said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
The above speaks of two distinct individuals, one called “LORD” and the other “Lord”, and as suggested above “LORD” is the Hebrew word “Yahweh”, while “Lord” is the normal word representing Lord, Master, Ruler. The KJV usually represents Yahweh by LORD in capitals, and only in a few places by the incorrect rendition Jehovah. Occasionally the KJV also uses GOD to represent Yahweh, and these are when YHWH has the vowel points of Elohim instead of the more frequent Adonai.

Our Lord Jesus Christ quotes and expounds Psalm 110:1 in the following:
Matthew 22:41–46 (KJV): 41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
This identifies Yahweh as the One God, the Father and David’s Lord is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is now seated at the right hand of God, His Father, in God the Father’s Throne.

Peter also quotes and expounds Psalm 110:1 after the death and resurrection of Jesus:
Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Jesus has been raised from the dead and exalted by God to sit at the right hand of God the Father. This again confirms that the One God is Yahweh, God the Father, and David’s Lord is our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Lon

Well-known member
Trevor you have been set apart, your full of wisdom, God has blessed you friend. Only a few will understand your words. Keep your guard up for Satan has a lot of workers. The blind will not see the light.
You've said a number of provably incorrect things here. Are you honest enough, and man enough to take the corrections? Ones I can prove? 🤔
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Lon,
You've said a number of provably incorrect things here. Are you honest enough, and man enough to take the corrections? Ones I can prove? 🤔
I am not sure whether you are speaking to keypurr or me. I do not endorse what keypurr has stated as I have been mainly stating what I have learnt in my environment and mainly my specific fellowship, nothing very outstanding, but bread and butter in my fellowship.

But only in the last few weeks I read an interesting explanation concerning Exodus 3:14 by a well known Hebrew scholar who translates Exodus 3:14 as "I will be" and he suggests that the Name Yahweh is thus not about existence but activity. If you further respond in this thread then I will quote what he has to say and you may like to "correct" this too. If you are speaking about my latest post, or the earlier posts, I would be interested in what you have to say. Your earlier post did not comment, but has the same 🤔. Does this second usage indicate that you have finished giving this some thought and have now reached a conclusion, "provably incorrect things"?

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Lon

Well-known member
Greetings again Lon,

I am not sure whether you are speaking to keypurr or me. I do not endorse what keypurr has stated as I have been mainly stating what I have learnt in my environment and mainly my specific fellowship, nothing very outstanding, but bread and butter in my fellowship.

But only in the last few weeks I read an interesting explanation concerning Exodus 3:14 by a well known Hebrew scholar who translates Exodus 3:14 as "I will be" and he suggests that the Name Yahweh is thus not about existence but activity. If you further respond in this thread then I will quote what he has to say and you may like to "correct" this too. If you are speaking about my latest post, or the earlier posts, I would be interested in what you have to say. Your earlier post did not comment, but has the same 🤔. Does this second usage indicate that you have finished giving this some thought and have now reached a conclusion, "provably incorrect things"?

Kind regards
Trevor
Er, it had "Keypurr's" name on it. He does say some things about you that are incorrect, however it was a post to him. He loves to hear his own opinions and give attaboys to those who 'think' somewhat akin to how he thinks himself. He is a confused man and dishonest enough to ignore the above challenge.

As to 'existence' vs. 'activity?' Sorry, no. Hebrew or not, grammar is made up of rules that apply across board: "When they ask,'What is His name?' what shall I reply?" Exodus 3:14

Trevor: are you really going to spend the rest of your life hunting and pecking for support for YOUR theology rather than just trying to discover HIS!?? Is that how precious YOUR ideas and church are over God very God's being and thoughts???? 🤔
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Lon,
As to 'existence' vs. 'activity?' Sorry, no. Hebrew or not, grammar is made up of rules that apply across board: "When they ask,'What is His name?' what shall I reply?" Exodus 3:14
As mentioned in my last post, the following is from AB Davidson, a prominent Hebrew scholar. In my first post I mentioned that the margin of the Revised Version has "I will be" for Exodus 3:14, and one of the supporters of this rendition could have been AB Davidson as he was one of the Hebrew scholars engaged in the production of the RV. Please note that I do not endorse all of his theology, as he was most probably a Trinitarian and also had other wrong ideas, but his Hebrew abilities have been respected and some of his Hebrew books were published in new editions until recently.

The article by AB Davidson is in the Hastings Bible Dictionary Volume 2 page 199:
"The name is connected with the Hebrew hayah, ‘to be’, in the imperfect. Now with regard to this verb, first, it does not mean ‘to be’ essentially or ontologically, but phenomenally; and secondly the imperfect has not the sense of a present (‘am’) but of a future (‘will be’). In Exodus 3:10ff, when Moses demurred to go to Egypt, God assured him saying, ‘I will be with thee’. When he asked how he should name the God of their fathers to the people, he was told Ehyeh asher Ehyeh. Again he was bidden say , ‘Ehyeh hath sent me unto you’. From all this it seems evident that in the view of the writer Ehyeh and Yahweh are the same: that God is Ehyeh, ‘I will be’, when speaking of Himself and Ýahweh’, ‘he will be’, when spoken of by others. What He will be is left unexpressed - He will be with them, helper, strengthener, deliverer."

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Lon

Well-known member
Greetings again Lon,

As mentioned in my last post, the following is from AB Davidson, a prominent Hebrew scholar. In my first post I mentioned that the margin of the Revised Version has "I will be" for Exodus 3:14, and one of the supporters of this rendition could have been AB Davidson as he was one of the Hebrew scholars engaged in the production of the RV. Please note that I do not endorse all of his theology, as he was most probably a Trinitarian and also had other wrong ideas, but his Hebrew abilities have been respected and some of his Hebrew books were published in new editions until recently.

The article by AB Davidson is in the Hastings Bible Dictionary Volume 2 page 199:
"The name is connected with the Hebrew hayah, ‘to be’, in the imperfect. Now with regard to this verb, first, it does not mean ‘to be’ essentially or ontologically, but phenomenally; and secondly the imperfect has not the sense of a present (‘am’) but of a future (‘will be’). In Exodus 3:10ff, when Moses demurred to go to Egypt, God assured him saying, ‘I will be with thee’. When he asked how he should name the God of their fathers to the people, he was told Ehyeh asher Ehyeh. Again he was bidden say , ‘Ehyeh hath sent me unto you’. From all this it seems evident that in the view of the writer Ehyeh and Yahweh are the same: that God is Ehyeh, ‘I will be’, when speaking of Himself and Ýahweh’, ‘he will be’, when spoken of by others. What He will be is left unexpressed - He will be with them, helper, strengthener, deliverer."

Kind regards
Trevor
Which is what I said, that you, run to obscure ideas you have to hunt and peck for, to support YOUR theology. I'm not sure as a layman, you have much else for tools, but it isn't the best avenue for building a strong and rigorous theology.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Lon,
Which is what I said, that you, run to obscure ideas you have to hunt and peck for, to support YOUR theology. I'm not sure as a layman, you have much else for tools, but it isn't the best avenue for building a strong and rigorous theology.
I disagree with your assessment. Actually it would have been interesting to have been on the committee that overruled Tyndales' translation of "I wilbe" and insisted on the "I AM" of the KJV, and also the committee that possibly rejected AB Davidson's transaltion "I will be", but allowed this to be added to the margin of the RV. I suggest that they were most probably ardent Trinitarians and that they claimed Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 are closely linked. Speaking about obscure ideas, such a connection is far from valid.

My understanding is not new and obscure, especially in my fellowship. Our major pioneer in our fellowship spoke on this subject in 1857 when he was invited by two Jewish converts to Trinitarianism, as they were having trouble convincing their fellow Jews to accept the Trinity. Rather than supporting the Trinity, our brother in the faith spoke on the subject of the One God, Yahweh and part of his talk was expounding Exodus 3:14 as "I will be". He was an editor of a magazine and he published a number of articles on the subject, and later these were collected into his booklet "Phanerosis", "An Exposition of the Doctrine of the Old and New Testaments concerning the Manifestation of the Invisible Eternal God in Human Nature". He also wrote a thorough exposition in the 1860s as part of his book on the Apocalypse.

I was introduced to this subject at a Young Peoples' Weekend in the Southern Highlands of NSW at the age of 19, and this subject has been part of my interest over the years. In recent years there was a thorough thread on another forum where the advocate of "I will be" was opposed by three Trinitarians and the result was that in the end two of the Trinitarians agreed, while the third disengaged earlier when he could not support his own claims.

I moved away from Sydney NSW, but the meeting where I attended is having a study on Peter's confession that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God. Following on from what AB Davidson states, this expositor connects the "I will be" of Exodus 3:14 with the promise by the One God, Yahweh to David when He says "I will be his father, and he shall be my son" as a development of the Yahweh Name.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Lon

Well-known member
Greetings again Lon,

I disagree with your assessment.
It doesn't matter if you disagree. It matters 'why' and we all know 'why,' don't we, Trevor? The 'why' is because you are committed to an idea, no matter how obscure, REGARDLESS of what scripture actually may mean otherwise, right? Isn't that true, Trevor? I've shown you the verse. Rather it is demonstrably true that Moses asked "WHO" should I say, not "What do you do?" You are literally chasing down an idea to shore up YOUR doctrine. Hypothesis can be good, in that it helps us to question our own doctrine and bring it before God and the Body, but if we don't listen, go after our own pet interpretation, without giving a whit or care about context discussion, we've stepped over a line. While the majority isn't always right, in this case, the answer is "Who" not 'What' and it is exactly that clear. Even you have to see that contextually, your proposition is far from what Moses asked.

As to 'existence' vs. 'activity?' Sorry, no. Hebrew or not, grammar is made up of rules that apply across board: "When they ask,'What is His name?' what shall I reply?" Exodus 3:14


It doesn't matter about the history of the discussion, but rather the content of the discussion at hand: Moses clearly asks "Who" not 'what are you going to do or be.' While "Will be" is fine as a sense of the scope, you and your denomination have relegated it to the "only" scope of "YHWH."
It'd be really hard at this point to 1) Admit you've been indoctrinated instead of taught to truly think critically over passages of scripture and 2) to turn away from something you have taught/desire to teach. There is a certain amount of pride that would have to be overcome for meaningful discussion to even take place, but Moses said "who" not 'what.' Think of the context and who Moses was going to say "YHWH" to (Pharaoh).
Let the Bible guide your thinking first. If it agrees with your theology: well and good. If it challenges it (as I believe it does here), then follow God and not just what someone happened to say you should believe about a passage or God's nature.

Trevor: are you really going to spend the rest of your life hunting and pecking for support for YOUR theology rather than just trying to discover HIS!?? Is that how precious YOUR ideas and church are over God very God's being and thoughts????
Who's thoughts are most important here? Trevors? Christadelphians? Lon's? God's?
if God's, shouldn't we be vested in finding out what His actually are?
Okay, then, let's read Exodus 3 again: Does Moses ask 'Who' or 'what will You be doing?" 🤔 What does Moses actually ask, Trevor?

There aren't that many Christadelphians. While I do appreciate your adherence, think of it a bit like the difference between Pharisees and Sadducees: The majority were the Pharisees. Jesus, always said to listen to the Pharisees, just not do like they did (whitewashed, preached one thing, did another). The Sadducees thought there was no life after death based on a few of their grasps of scripture. If I were a Sadducee, I'd have recognized, however much I loved that denomination, that I'd been corrected and two, that I'd need to let scripture be my primary goal. I'm typically a 'Reformed Baptist' but I always entertain scripture to guide my theology, even if it challenges "Reformed Baptist" theology (so much so, that I often get questioned if I am either, or re-labelled something else and that's okay if 'biblical' and "Christ-honoring" is the goal for doing so).
 
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TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Lon,
Rather it is demonstrably true that Moses asked "WHO" should I say, not "What do you do?"
I appreciate your many words, but I hold onto "I will be" as the correct translation and meaning of God's Name. "He who will be" reveals who He is and what He was going to accomplish in delivering Israel out of Egypt and bring them into the Promised Land Exodus 3:12, 6:1-8. "He who will be" covers both existence and purpose and activity, "I am" expresses existence which Moses already knew as he had witnessed in the Burning Bush and the declaration that God stated "I am the God of Abraham".

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Lon

Well-known member
Greetings again Lon,

I appreciate your many words, but I hold onto "I will be" as the correct translation and meaning of God's Name.
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"He who will be" reveals who He is and what He was going to accomplish in delivering Israel out of Egypt and bring them into the Promised Land Exodus 3:12, 6:1-8.

You are jumping context: The IMMEDIATE context is "What name shall I say to Pharaoh." He isn't making an "I will be who you need me to be" Christadelphian meme to Pharaoh. He is telling Moses "Tell Him, I AM THE God, the Only God." "I will be" is part of that conversation but again, you are trying to push and shove one idea. Why? For only one thing: Christadelphians, regardless of what any other Christian believes. That is YOU 'trying' to do that. It is a "Trevor and the Christadelphians" commercial.
"He who will be" covers both existence and purpose and activity, "I am" expresses existence which Moses already knew as he had witnessed in the Burning Bush and the declaration that God stated "I am the God of Abraham".

Kind regards
Trevor
Poor reading, Trevor. Moses didn't ask who God was. He asked who he should tell Pharaoh, He was. TRY to stay within context for this important conversation: "What does it say?" first. THEN "What does it mean?" Not 'what do I want it to mean' THEN what can I get it to say to support that. You may not realize you are doing that, but it is exactly that: Propaganda, A Christadelphian commercial. :Z

I'm never so attached to my denomination that I turn a blind eye when someone is trying to show me exactly what scripture says, and what it might mean to my theology, but you aren't doing that. You are doing damage to context all for the desire and misplaced allegiance to men (however good or nice they might be) rather than to good grammatical rules of scripture. It'd be great if you were this open and transparent in your theology, to actually discuss where you might be wrong.

You aren't actually showing me what scripture says. You are showing me what "you want them to say, if you had your drothers" at this point.

4 When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

7 Then the Lord said, “I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters. I know their sufferings, 8 and I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of (see? Who He is and what He will do) the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 9 And now, behold, the cry of the people of Israel has come to me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them. 10 Come, I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring my people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?” 12 He said, “But I will be with you, and this shall be the sign for you, that I have sent you: when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain.”

Exodus 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.”1 And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I am has sent me to you.’ ”
(see? Doesn't the context blow your narrow idea completely out of the water?)
15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. 16 Go and gather the elders of Israel together and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me, saying, “I have observed you and what has been done to you in Egypt, 17 and I promise that I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, a land flowing with milk and honey.” ’ 18 And they will listen to your voice, and you and the elders of Israel shall go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us; and now, please let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.’ 19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless compelled by a mighty hand. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike Egypt with all the wonders that I will do in it; after that he will let you go. 21 And I will give this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and when you go, you shall not go empty, 22 but each woman shall ask of her neighbor, and any woman who lives in her house, for silver and gold jewelry, and for clothing. You shall put them on your sons and on your daughters. So you shall plunder the Egyptians.”
 
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