The Wild Wild "West"!
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godrulz said:
James 2:8 Howbeit if ye fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
James 2:9 but if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors.
James 2:24 You see then that man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.
Romans 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Paul and James clearly disagree. Mid-Acts dispensation makes great sense. Godrulz, I'm not trying to start a big stink. I thought you were coming along well with dispensational teaching talking to Bob Hill? I havent looked at that thread in a long time. (or maybe I dont remember it right?)
Sozo said:
Jesus did not teach works. He said the work of God was to believe (also see John 3). James is talking about justification before men who cannot see invisible faith (justified before God). True faith is not mere mental assent like the devil has. True faith will be transforming and lead to a Christ-like life. Read the flow of James' argument, not just a verse or two.
Vaquero45 said:
Ultradispensationalism is a heresy.
Jesus did not teach works. He said the work of God was to believe (also see Jn. 3). Follow the flow of James' argument rather than taking isolated verses out of context. He talks about saving faith having practical impact in contrast to devil's head belief. The contrast is not faith vs works, but saving faith with works (fruit) and mere mental belief that does not save (like the devil has).
Sozo said:
Romans 4; 5 makes it clear that even Abraham was justified by faith without works (contrary to those here who insist much of the NT was based on faith + works).
The same Spirit inspired Romans and James. James is emphasizing the nature of saving faith and practical Christian living. Paul is emphasizing justification by faith vs works. Paul also talked about works, and James/Jesus also talked about faith.
Sozo said:
Who would that be what? The Mid-Acts guys here insist that Jesus and non-Pauline writings were faith + works (contrary to Jesus, Paul, and the others).
I think it is straightforward that James is talking about the relationship between faith and deeds (cf. Paul in Eph. 2:8-10), not salvation conditional on faith + works. The thief on the cross was non-Pauline dispensation and did not have time to do works. He was saved based on calling on the name of the Lord.
James talks about not just listening to the Word, but doing it. Paul and Jesus taught the same thing.
1:27 Looking after orphans and widows is from a heart of faith and love. I do not think all the Christian teenagers who do not do this are going to hell because they did not do these specific good works.
He goes on to say that people of faith should cloth their brother. What good is sitting on a mountain gazing at your navel just because you are saved by faith. Faith should make a difference.
2:18 practical Christian living...some boasted of having faith...James said I will show you my faith (both had saving faith, period) by what I do...He is not saying he is saved by what he does or does not do. He then reminds them that the devil believes, but that saving faith will not just be head belief...it will lead to a life lived for God and others. Faith and actions worked together, but in the end, it is faith alone in Christ and His finished work that saves.
The Bible simply does not support a works based salvation. God's message from Genesis to Revelation is that He is holy and our works amount to filthy rags. If we could save ourselves by works in any dispensation, the cross is not necessary. We could never do enough works or the right kind of works to deal with our sin problem that separates us from God. It is contrary to grace to ever have works as a CONDITION of salvation. It is not contrary to grace to have works flow out of a life of faith. Loving obedience shows everyone that we have transforming faith. No outward evidence could lead some to conclude that they do not have faith at all.
James continues on about practical Christian living by talking about the tongue, fighting, use of riches, suffering, etc. Faith is relevant to every area of our lives, not just initial salvation and eternity.
Sozo
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godrulz said:
Let's see about that...
"But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors."
James says that we are under the law.
"What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?"
Can it? Why would James ask this if his answer is yes? James explicitly says that faith without works cannot save you.
"Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."
James says that faith without works is dead. James calls "works" the determining factor of someone's faith.
"But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?"
James is still talking about salvation, not the christian life.
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected"
James claims that it is the works that are the plumline, not faith. No works, no faith.
Abraham was not justified by works when he offered up Isaac. That is false. Even if someone holds to a mid-acts view, and James is speaking to a different dispensation, he is still lying. Abraham was justified by faith alone, and not by works.
"You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
James is speaking of justification before God, not men. You are wrong. The evidence is blatantly clear. Abraham was justified when he believed God, not when he offered up Isaac.
You lost me...I agree that Abraham was justified by faith, not by works, just as Paul said. You are also saying he was not justified by faith, but by works?
Most commentators or books on alleged bible discrepancies do not have an issue with James vs Paul. Luther thought it was a straw gospel, but he was wrong (and about other things).
This thread is not about James. Its about Jimmy. Where is he?
Most commentators or books on alleged bible discrepancies do not have an issue with James vs Paul. Luther thought it was a straw gospel, but he was wrong (and about other things).
This thread is not about James. Its about Jimmy. Where is he?
Sozo said:
I did work all night and I am half asleep
If one wrongly assumes that only Pauline writings are primarily for today's Church, then one sees contradiction and filters things through this lens.
If one recognizes the validity of the NT, especially post-resurrection of Christ, as applicable, then careful exegesis does not lead to a contradiction between Paul, Jesus, and James.
Jimmy, you are on the hot box. Get back here. :shut:
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