ECT The Ultimate Condemnation of Believers Who Continue to Sin

[ZacharyB]

2 Peter 2:1-22, TLB
“… there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly tell their lies about God,
turning against even their Master who bought them; but theirs will be a swift and terrible end. Many will follow their evil teaching that there is nothing wrong with sexual sin …
But God condemned them long ago and their destruction is on the way …
false teachers are fools—no better than animals. They do whatever they feel like …
and they will be destroyed along with all the demons and powers of hell. That is the
pay these teachers will have for their sin. For they live in evil pleasures day after day.
They are a disgrace and a stain among you, deceiving you by living in foul sin on the side
… They train themselves to be greedy; and are doomed and cursed. They have gone off the
road and become lost like Balaam … These men are as useless as dried-up springs of water
… They are doomed to the eternal pits of darkness … they lure back into sin those who
have just escaped from such wicked living. ‘You aren’t saved by being good’, they say,
‘so you might as well be bad. Do what you like; be free.’ But these very teachers
who offer this ‘freedom’ from law are themselves slaves to sin and destruction.
For a man is a slave to whatever controls him (A). And when a person has escaped from
the wicked ways of the world by learning about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then
gets tangled up with sin and becomes its slave again, he is worse off than he was before (B).
It would be better if he had never known about Christ at all than to learn of him and then
afterwards turn his back on the holy commandments that were given to him. There is an old
saying that ‘A dog comes back to what he has vomited, and a pig is washed only to come back
and wallow in the mud again.’ That is the way it is with those who turn again to their sin.”

This passage condemns both false teachers and their followers to eternal hell.

Believers who choose to be slaves of sin again are the foolish rebellious believers:
(A) that Paul warns about in Romans 6
(B) that become worse off than unbelievers

 

[DAN P]

2 Peter 2:1-22, TLB
“… there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly tell their lies about God,
turning against even their Master who bought them; but theirs will be a swift and terrible end. Many will follow their evil teaching that there is nothing wrong with sexual sin …
But God condemned them long ago and their destruction is on the way …
false teachers are fools—no better than animals. They do whatever they feel like …
and they will be destroyed along with all the demons and powers of hell. That is the
pay these teachers will have for their sin. For they live in evil pleasures day after day.
They are a disgrace and a stain among you, deceiving you by living in foul sin on the side
… They train themselves to be greedy; and are doomed and cursed. They have gone off the
road and become lost like Balaam … These men are as useless as dried-up springs of water
… They are doomed to the eternal pits of darkness … they lure back into sin those who
have just escaped from such wicked living. ‘You aren’t saved by being good’, they say,
‘so you might as well be bad. Do what you like; be free.’ But these very teachers
who offer this ‘freedom’ from law are themselves slaves to sin and destruction.
For a man is a slave to whatever controls him (A). And when a person has escaped from
the wicked ways of the world by learning about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then
gets tangled up with sin and becomes its slave again, he is worse off than he was before (B).
It would be better if he had never known about Christ at all than to learn of him and then
afterwards turn his back on the holy commandments that were given to him. There is an old
saying that ‘A dog comes back to what he has vomited, and a pig is washed only to come back
and wallow in the mud again.’ That is the way it is with those who turn again to their sin.”

This passage condemns both false teachers and their followers to eternal hell.

Believers who choose to be slaves of sin again are the foolish rebellious believers:
(A) that Paul warns about in Romans 6
(B) that become worse off than unbelievers

Hi and here is your BUBBLE and is broken , because 2 Peter 2:1 is really about the Great Tribulation as the verb ' SHALL THERE BE and the verb Privily bring in /PAREISAGO , both are in the FUTURE Tense and has nothing to do with the Dispensation of the Grace of God !!

dan p

 

[ZacharyB]

Consistency sometimes is a great virtue!
But, old Dan consistently displays his spiritual ignorance.
Brothers and sisters, this is something you can always count on.

 

[nikolai_42]

Consider this just a thought on the passage and the falling away of someone who believed. Jesus delivers men from the power of darkness. He saves their souls from death. In so doing, is man left the same as he was in the sense of his nature and inclinations or has he been changed? If a man is truly born again - born of the Spirit of God - isn't he a new creature? A new creation? John says it this way :

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I John 3:9

In contrast, Peter says this :

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2 Peter 2:14

So would it not be fair to say that the believer spoken of by John is not who Peter is talking about? Wouldn't Peter, rather, be talking about those who feigned (at some level) faith in Christ? Those who were never really changed though they heard the gospel and at least outwardly professed it to be true? Jesus said that it would be easier in the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than the Israelites who lived in His day and saw and heard Him - because they were responsible for what they were given (and that, I think, is why He hid so many things from their eyes - at least in part as a form of mercy for those who would not believe). So too, these men that Peter speaks of seem to be those who benefitted from the knowledge of the gospel but not the power :

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Peter 2:20

There is liberty where the truth shines (America being a prime example of that for some time) but that does not mean all partake personally of that liberty in themselves. That is, they can be beneficiaries of a degree of truth but never have it change them internally.

So my thought goes back to the first paragraph - how a man who is fundamentally changed can be seen in this passage is something that I have great difficulty with. If God's salvation is just the extent spoken of in 2 Peter 2 (the knowledge of the Lord) instead of a total overhaul, then there is no guarantee anyone will stay in Christ. They are just as likely as they ever were to follow fleshly lusts because they remain in their sins. In the end, then, God covers sins once and then says (in effect) "you're on your own - don't sin anymore!". No...unless there is something fundamentally changed in a man, I simply can't see that he is much (or any) different than before he knew about the Lord at all. So for a truly born again man to fall away is not something I can reconcile with scripture.

 

[Truster]

The converted man can sin, but the converted man cannot enjoy or remain in that sin. He will despise himself and hate the sin. At that point he will be granted repentance and be turned, by grace, from that sin.

The hymn writer understood this from experience and so wrote,"Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far and Grace will lead me home." If you are a stranger to this and the last verses of psalm 119 then you are a stranger to Messiah Yah Shua.

 

[Clete]

2 Peter 2:1-22, TLB
“… there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly tell their lies about God,
turning against even their Master who bought them; but theirs will be a swift and terrible end. Many will follow their evil teaching that there is nothing wrong with sexual sin …
But God condemned them long ago and their destruction is on the way …
false teachers are fools—no better than animals. They do whatever they feel like …
and they will be destroyed along with all the demons and powers of hell. That is the
pay these teachers will have for their sin. For they live in evil pleasures day after day.
They are a disgrace and a stain among you, deceiving you by living in foul sin on the side
… They train themselves to be greedy; and are doomed and cursed. They have gone off the
road and become lost like Balaam … These men are as useless as dried-up springs of water
… They are doomed to the eternal pits of darkness … they lure back into sin those who
have just escaped from such wicked living. ‘You aren’t saved by being good’, they say,
‘so you might as well be bad. Do what you like; be free.’ But these very teachers
who offer this ‘freedom’ from law are themselves slaves to sin and destruction.
For a man is a slave to whatever controls him (A). And when a person has escaped from
the wicked ways of the world by learning about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then
gets tangled up with sin and becomes its slave again, he is worse off than he was before (B).
It would be better if he had never known about Christ at all than to learn of him and then
afterwards turn his back on the holy commandments that were given to him. There is an old
saying that ‘A dog comes back to what he has vomited, and a pig is washed only to come back
and wallow in the mud again.’ That is the way it is with those who turn again to their sin.”

This passage condemns both false teachers and their followers to eternal hell.

Believers who choose to be slaves of sin again are the foolish rebellious believers:
(A) that Paul warns about in Romans 6
(B) that become worse off than unbelievers

First of all, get a real translation of the bible.


While sin of any sort is destructive and harmful, you cannot outsin the seal of the Holy Spirit and you also cannot apply other people's mail as though it was written to or about you.

In the Dispensation of Grace, which was given to Paul by revelation and was taught to us through the Pauline epistles is not based on your lack of sin but on faith alone apart from works.

"To ‘hope to be better’ [hence acceptable] is to fail to see yourself in Christ only.

"To be disappointed with yourself, is to have believed in yourself.

"To be discouraged is unbelief,—as to God’s purpose and plan of blessing for you.

"To be proud, is to be blind! For we have no standing before God, in ourselves.

"The lack of Divine blessing, therefore, comes from unbelief, and not from failure of devotion…

"To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God’s order, and preach law, not grace. The Law made man’s blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so,—in proper measure."

"Have we been afraid to really believe God? Have some even been afraid to allow others to really believe Him? We must never forget that "God’s ways are not always man’s ways. To some men constant peril is the only spur to action, and many religions and psychologies are dependent on fear to keep their disciples in line. Fear, too, has a place in Christianity, but God has higher and more effective motivations than fear, and one of these is love. Often fear after a while produces only numbness, but love thrives on love. To promise a man the certainty of his destiny may seem, on the human level, like playing with fire; but this leaves God out of the picture. Those who have the deepest appreciation of grace do not continue in sin. Moreover, fear produces the obedience of slaves; love engenders the obedience of sons" - J. W. Sanderson, Jr.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”


Ephesians1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.​

You cannot outsin the grace of God. The Holy Spirit has been given to us as an ernest payment against our salvation. God would have to forfeit His own Spirit to send any one of those who have called upon Him to Hell because they sinned too much.

Your confusion comes from a failure to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Danoh]

Years ago, I had a neighor who was rather generous to his dog; a beautiful red Labrador.

A nearby building had been remodeled, and after they were done and had hauled off the dumpster, they left the resulting indent made by the heavy dumpster in the dirt.

Over the next few weeks of hot weather after a rainy night, that precious dog would come by every now and then to lie in the resulting pond of muddy water in an attempt to cool itself off.

At some point, its' owner would show up; gently call his dog; and take it home to hose it down.

As I was impressed by his patience each time, I asked him one day why it did not bother him that he'd bathe the dog, only for it to end up in that muddy water.

He replied that the dog was just trying to cool off as best it knew how.

Years later, I realized that what that man had been practicing towards his dog had been the concept of unmerited grace.

Grace is not grace when merited.

Grace that does not risk its going unappreciated, is not grace.

Because grace is unmerited.

It was grace that risked being rejected, spit on, beaten, nailed to a cross under a dry hot sun, reviled by the very creature that grace came to be grace to.

It was grace that risked such an abuse under the very sun and sky that grace freely gave one and all; on a cross made of wood from trees that grace gave all mankind; nailed on that cross by nails made out of the metal that grace gave all creation...

Why this umerited misery on behalf of such an ungrateful creation?

One answer, and one answer alone...

Romans 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

Galatians 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

What, pray tell; is it that the worker ant believer believes he or she can add to that by his fool effort - what?

Will a man rob God?

The worker ant believer sure works at doing just that, in his ignorance...

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[ZacharyB]

So for a truly born again man to fall away
is not something I can reconcile with scripture.

Thanks for your well-thought-out reply.
So, all of the many dire warnings about losing salvation,
not entering the kingdom, not entering the New Jerusalem,
not being in the Book of Life, etc.
are aimed at those in the churches who are not born-again?

 

[ZacharyB]

The converted man can sin, but the converted man cannot enjoy or remain in that sin. He will despise himself and hate the sin. At that point he will be granted repentance and be turned, by grace, from that sin.

Yes, I agree that this is the norm.
But, isn't it ridiculous to give dire warnings to "stop sinning or else" to the unconverted,
i.e. will the stopping of sinning cause the unconverted to be born-again?
NT Scriptures say the unconverted man is against God, etc. and the only
way for him is if God gives him faith which will enable him to believe.
I.E. can the unconverted man truly repent without God's intervention?

It's high time that I produce a thread with those NT Scriptures,
which teach God must give the necessary faith to believe!

 

[ZacharyB]

Your confusion comes from a failure to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

For many years, I have been using the NKJV.

What say you to such NT verses such as:
"all liars will be cast into the Lake of Fire"?

How can you believe that this does not (also) apply to born-again believers?

 

[Danoh]

For many years, I have been using the NKJV.

What say you to such NT verses such as:
"all liars will be cast into the Lake of Fire"?

How can you believe that this does not (also) apply to born-again believers?

Because spiritually born-again Israelites were just that - spiritually born again Israelites...

 

[ZacharyB]

Grace that does not risk its going unappreciated, is not grace.

IMO, grace can be refused, run away from, trashed, etc.
I.E. gifts can be refused, not appreciated, trashed, etc.

Your Ephesians verses are bogus because
Paul was only writing to the "faithful" ones there (1:1),
and ditto for the epistle to the Colossians (1:2).

 

[Truster]

Yes, I agree that this is the norm.
But, isn't it ridiculous to give dire warnings to "stop sinning or else" to the unconverted,
i.e. will the stopping of sinning cause the unconverted to be born-again?
NT Scriptures say the unconverted man is against God, etc. and the only
way for him is if God gives him faith which will enable him to believe.
I.E. can the unconverted man truly repent without God's intervention?

It's high time that I produce a thread with those NT Scriptures,
which teach God must give the necessary faith to believe!

Repentance is one of the most misunderstood and misused words in scripture. It is usually used parrot fashion with no comprehension. The abilities to trust and repent are not inherent in mankind.

The dire warnings are not understood in the context in which they are given. Verses are not stand alone commands and if taken as such are usually not understood and misapplied.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

2 Peter 2:1-22, TLB
“… there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly tell their lies about God,
turning against even their Master who bought them; but theirs will be a swift and terrible end. Many will follow their evil teaching that there is nothing wrong with sexual sin …
But God condemned them long ago and their destruction is on the way …
false teachers are fools—no better than animals. They do whatever they feel like …
and they will be destroyed along with all the demons and powers of hell. That is the
pay these teachers will have for their sin. For they live in evil pleasures day after day.
They are a disgrace and a stain among you, deceiving you by living in foul sin on the side
… They train themselves to be greedy; and are doomed and cursed. They have gone off the
road and become lost like Balaam … These men are as useless as dried-up springs of water
… They are doomed to the eternal pits of darkness … they lure back into sin those who
have just escaped from such wicked living. ‘You aren’t saved by being good’, they say,
‘so you might as well be bad. Do what you like; be free.’ But these very teachers
who offer this ‘freedom’ from law are themselves slaves to sin and destruction.
For a man is a slave to whatever controls him (A). And when a person has escaped from
the wicked ways of the world by learning about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then
gets tangled up with sin and becomes its slave again, he is worse off than he was before (B).
It would be better if he had never known about Christ at all than to learn of him and then
afterwards turn his back on the holy commandments that were given to him. There is an old
saying that ‘A dog comes back to what he has vomited, and a pig is washed only to come back
and wallow in the mud again.’ That is the way it is with those who turn again to their sin.”

This passage condemns both false teachers and their followers to eternal hell.

Believers who choose to be slaves of sin again are the foolish rebellious believers:
(A)that Paul warns about in Romans 6
(B)that become worse off than unbelievers

I agree that believing sin is profitable is a false belief and a false teaching.

There is a double edge to these verses that is missed though.

To judge humanity by Moses or to lose faith in the power of Jesus's blood to absolutely save is a falling from grace and subjection to Moses.

I tend to focus on the falling from grace.side because the condemnation band wagon is destroying the Love found in the gospel.

What happens when believers deny that they sin omissivly and comissivly is that they become liars that lose compassion for the very humanity Jesus died for.

We do not sin that grace should abound, but we also must never mix Moses with salvation.

The difference in a believer sinning and a non believer sinning is the reaction of God. God brings the boom on and corrects the sinner that backsides by allowing themselves to be captured by sin.

The non believer does not recognize where correction comes from, though it may indeed come. The believer is typically freed from enslavement to sin and they ultimately rejoice in the just correction of Jesus.

Sin destroys and erodes quality of life. This is a fact. But it is even worse for a believer to believe they are anything but a perpetually forgiven sinner in the arms of grace.

This state is the hardening of the heart to the Spirit and the invisible proclamation that Jesus never needed to die for their fleshly state.

This is indeed a double edged blade.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Repentance is one of the most misunderstood and misused words in scripture. It is usually used parrot fashion with no comprehension. The abilities to trust and repent are not inherent in mankind.

The dire warnings are not understood in the context in which they are given. Verses are not stand alone commands and if taken as such are usually not understood and misapplied.

I know you blocked me, but I agree with your words, but I'm certain we disagree with their meaning.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Nang]

Thanks for your well-thought-out reply.
So, all of the many dire warnings about losing salvation,
not entering the kingdom, not entering the New Jerusalem,
not being in the Book of Life, etc.
are aimed at those in the churches who are not born-again?

This is my understanding. The churches are full of those who profess faith, but function as hypocrites, deceiving themselves and others. The warnings are given to all the visible church, but effectual repentance and faith to heed the warnings, is granted by God only to His elect and invisible church of Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 10:37-39)

 

[Clete]

For many years, I have been using the NKJV.

Why in the world did you quote from the Living Bible then? Not the it would alter the argument at all. You can use whatever English bible you want. The only point I was making about the transalation is the the Living Bible barely counts as one and there are a lot better choices to make. But even if the Living Bible was the original manuscripts themselves, your error would remain the same. You're effectively ignoring a major part of the context, that being who wrote the passages you are citing and who they were written too.

What say you to such NT verses such as:
"all liars will be cast into the Lake of Fire"?

How can you believe that this does not (also) apply to born-again believers?

There is no such verse, at least not in the NKJV.

What translation did you get that quotation from and why didn't you cite the book, chapter and verse?

And NO! Such a verse would not, could not and will never ever apply to a born-again believer! Believers today are members of the Body of Christ. We are hid in Him and sealed with the Holy Spirit. God would have to through Himself into the Lake of Fire if He wanted to through a believer in.

The references to the Lake of Fire are in the Book of Revelation, which was written by John, an apostle to Israel. The book cannot be applied directly to the Body of Christ because it was not written to or about the Body of Christ.


You should understand, by the way, that I can in no way be accused of being soft on sin. Sin is terribly destructive and harmful to everyone it touches and should be dealt with directly and very harshly if need be. But how we deal with fellow believers who are sinning and where they will spend eternity are two different issues.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

This is my understanding. The churches are full of those who profess faith, but function as hypocrites, deceiving themselves and others. The warnings are given to all the visible church, but effectual repentance and faith to heed the warnings, is granted by God only to His elect and invisible church of Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 10:37-39)

Translation: God predestined everything anyone does and therefore if they repent it's because God predestined that they would and if they don't repent it's because God predestined that they wouldn't.

How can anyone believe such idiotic stupity!

 

[Clete]

Yes, I agree that this is the norm.
But, isn't it ridiculous to give dire warnings to "stop sinning or else" to the unconverted,
i.e. will the stopping of sinning cause the unconverted to be born-again?
NT Scriptures say the unconverted man is against God, etc. and the only
way for him is if God gives him faith which will enable him to believe.
I.E. can the unconverted man truly repent without God's intervention?

It's high time that I produce a thread with those NT Scriptures,
which teach God must give the necessary faith to believe!

You're asking the right questions!

Of course, it would make no sense at all to give such a warning to unbelievers and God did not do so.

There is no question that God did give the warning and so who did He give the warning too?

ISRAEL!!

More specifically, those saved under what dispensationalists call the Kingdom Gospel. Also, known as the Gospel of Circumcision...

Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​

It is a warning to those saved while under the law!

It is the law that threatens. It is the law that convicts. It is the law that condemns.

Grace does NOT do any of those things!

It is precisely the law that has been taken out of the way because it was against us...

Colossians 2: 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Truster]

Translation: God predestined everything anyone does and therefore if they repent it's because God predestined that they would and if they don't repent it's because God predestined that they wouldn't.

How can anyone believe such idiotic stupity!

The term predestined is a mistranslation. The original word proorizo conveys a stronger and more steadfast meaning. To predetermine and so it proves to me that you have commented on something that you have no understanding of and obviously no experience of.

The doctrine of predetermination is the only explanation to someone like myself. Who didn't seek salvation, didn't ask to be saved and hated even the word holy and yet received grace and truth.

"But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me". Romans 10:20

Only the heirs of promise can understand predetermination as being a Sovereign choice and say amen to the above.