The Trinity

[God's Truth]

You need to stop your attacks. Period.

If a point is to be made then make it clearly and consicely with both the reference within context of the individual quoted and the scriptural support for your own opinion.

The act is very tiresome and if it isn't an act then it is quite sad.

Stand straight and attack straight forward with truth, not vanity and words of contempt and envy.

What profit does any gain from the degredation, belittlement, and accusations of another?

Do you actually know something to be wrong? You do? Well then please; do show it to all in a manner that will actually help all.

No? No way?

What are we taught by the teachings and example and humility of the beloved Lord GOD and Christ, and the Spirit that we do hope upon and have faith in?

Do you not know? Has it not affected you personally?

Relinquish pride and hope on His peace....




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This is excellent advice and too bad only those wanting to be wise, and only the wise will follow it.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of fools seems right to them, but the wise listen to advice.

 

[Nihilo]

Jesus did not have a flesh and blood body like humans have.

:freak: John 1:14 (KJV)

 

[God's Truth]

I wholly agree with that, but could you please attempt to explain how it relates to us not having a new body instantly upon death?

Thank you in advance.


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...because Abraham died in the flesh, and yet, we still say that God is Abraham's God.

If Abraham is not alive in the spirit, then he is dead, and that would make God the Father of the dead.

 

[God's Truth]

:freak: John 1:14 (KJV)

Pay better attention. The discussion is about BEFORE Jesus came to earth and what king of body he had.

 

[God's Truth]

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

They are not with the Lord until Christ returns to raise them from the dead.

LA

I take it that you do believe we are trapped in a dead decaying body after our body dies EVEN THOUGH the Bible plainly says that a body without the spirit is dead; James 2:26.

According to you, a body is dead with the spirit. God giving us a spirit makes our body ALIVE. Think about it some more.

As for the scriptures you referenced, you forgot the scriptures about how Jesus BRINGS WITH HIM THE SPIRITS OF THOSE who died. Jesus brings the spirits that were with him and then they come up from the ground in their new bodies.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

 

[God's Truth]

YOUR words friend: To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. In other words, when we (Christians) die, we are immediately transported to Heaven to be with God, and are given a new body to dwell in.


I question why you believe that when you know he is returning to come get us.

He is saying it wrong about being given a new body upon death; but, he is right about being in prison/hell or heaven after the death of our bodies.

 

[God's Truth]

Nevertheless, David is still dead in his grave to this day--

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

LA

No that scripture is about how David's BODY is in a grave and did not go to heaven as Jesus did. It does not mean that David's spirit did not go to heaven.

 

[God's Truth]

Would you show proof of it being a fairy tale.

Lazy said that what JR said was a fairy tale about our being given new bodies at the time of death. JR is wrong about that.
Our spirits will go to be with Jesus or go to be in prison/hell.

 

[God's Truth]

BR if we go to Heaven at Death, why is he returning for us?

THE VERSE MUST BE SPEAKING OF SOMETHING ELSE.

I expect to sleep in my grave til he comes for me.

Don't you think we should get our bodies back? Because of Satan we lose our bodies. Jesus says we will get our bodies back.

 

[God's Truth]

No scripture says any man will be in Heaven or hell upon his death.

It requires the resurrection of one dead to be with Jesus and it is not even stated that it will be in Heaven yet.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

That scripture is about Jesus coming for them when they die, like when Stephen was about to die, Jesus came for him.

Jesus says that he is going to prepare a place for them and that he will come back and takes them to be with him. We see in Acts that Jesus came for Stephen. See Acts 7:55 But Stephen full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

We see that Jesus came back for Stephen. In addition, we see in 2 Timothy 4:18 that Paul is confident that Jesus will come back to get him and bring him safely to his heavenly kingdom. See the following...

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Nihilo]

Pay better attention. The discussion is about BEFORE Jesus came to earth and what king of body he had.

Oh I saw, I just wanted to make sure everybody understood.

 

[God's Truth]

Oh I saw, I just wanted to make sure everybody understood.

No, you didn't see, and anyone who can see, they can see that you did not see but you are only acting as if you did.

 

[NWL]

1. I somehow thought you'd bite at that. Please favor me with understanding the words within their intended context. When I say "Jacob has no power to bless" it is obvious of what I speak. Jacob is asking for God to bless, any blessing from Jacob itself is ineffectual. This is why Jacob makes a prayer to God to grant a blessing.

When Jacob "blesses" he makes a request for God to bless, but when God "blesses" he grants his favor in a specific way and makes it happen.

To claim that the blessing was ineffectual would be foolish, since it was Jacob very blessing that made on Ephraim firstborn over Manasseh, who was the literal firstborn. Jacob's blessing was very much real and effectual. Jacob asking God and the Angel to bless the boys was no different to when he asked the nation to include them in their blessings, v20.

2. The biblical writing style is such that it uses repetition for the precise reason of making sure that its content is not misunderstood. When Jacob speaks to God, and then he describes God in three different ways, it defeats the whole purpose if you sever the descriptions from each other based on a pre-existing theology.

I will guarantee you that the theological filter you are applied post-dates Genesis. I think most normal people would read that passage and understand that Jacob is praying (and naming) one individual. I never imagined that anyone would split those into one pair and an odd one out.

This is only true if one chooses to understand it as a repetition for emphasis. To say that it was repeated three times "precise reason of making sure that its content is not misunderstood" is an assumption, you need to stop this, stop imposing your own rules into scripture. As I've said elsewhere I can say "the King who walks with his people, the King who is mighty, the Queen who sustains men, give me wealth", no one would have difficulty identifying two persons here, one King and one Queen, some might conclude three persons are spoken of, two different Kings and a Queen. To claim that what's said in Gen 48:15-17 is only in regard to one person though and simply cannot be understood in any other sense is plain dumb and ignoring plain grammar.

Spoiler

Isaiah 41:14 KJV
(14) Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

There's another example, above. How many is that? One LORD, one redeemer, and one Holy One of Israel? I thought it was obvious that these are multiple names for the same God. Do you figure these are two, or three, by your reckoning?

Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

So how many would be named in that line above?

1. the LORD the King of Israel is one guy,
his redeemer the LORD of hosts is another? or do we group those two together?
2. "I am the first" is a different guy perhaps?
"and I am the last" is yet another guy chipping in, perhaps an angel this time?
3. "... and beside me there is no God" is God coming back in to finish the chorus?

So is that one, two, three, four, or five people speaking above?

If I were to make a guess, in light of that Jesus uses this name from Isaiah of "the first and the last" for himself in Revelation, you'd need to say that there are at least two people speaking in Isaiah above.

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

I could find more examples easily enough. It seems to me me that it is your theology that drives your reading, rather than your reading that drives your theology. Normal people would read those phrases and understand that they necessitated equivalence, not diverse persons.

I do not deny that epithets of person can be repeated in a sequence, however, it this does nothing to my argument. The language used in Genesis 48 does not necessitate there only being one person spoken of, whereas the language in the passages you cited do, i.e "This is what Jehovah says", "declares Jehovah, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel" and "When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last". As you can see the language dictates that the epithets relate to a single person, no such language is used in Gen 48 in regards to what Jacob said.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus was dead before he went on the cross, he was dead to this world and sin, he'd already sacrificed his life by his blood.

Jesus was not dead before he went on the cross.

He was alive and he was a LIVING SACRIFICE.

We too are supposed to offer our bodies as living sacrifices.

How do we do that?

BY NOT SINNING with our bodies!

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship.

 

[NWL]

Jesus is God. We are made in His image.

Jesus did not have a flesh and blood body like humans have.

I asked you a question relating to Jesus and humanity prior to his life on earth, please do not side step the question by giving and answer that is vague and indirect. I already awknowlged that you stated Jesus did not have a body of flesh and blood. I specifically asked you if Jesus was a human prior coming to earth, please answer the question directly.

You stated "Jesus had a body before coming to earth. It was not a flesh and blood body", you've again stated "Jesus did not have a flesh and blood body like humans have", is this you agreeing that Jesus was not a human prior to coming to earth, again, please confirm you believe Jesus was NOT a human prior to coming to earth?

A, yes Jesus was human prior to coming
or
No Jesus was not human, will suffice.

 

[God's Truth]

I asked you a question relating to Jesus and humanity prior to his life on earth, please do not side step the question by giving and answer that is vague and indirect. I already awknowlged that you stated Jesus did not have a body of flesh and blood. I specifically asked you if Jesus was a human prior coming to earth, please answer the question directly.

You stated "Jesus had a body before coming to earth. It was not a flesh and blood body", you've again stated "Jesus did not have a flesh and blood body like humans have", is this you agreeing that Jesus was not a human prior to coming to earth, again, please confirm you believe Jesus was NOT a human prior to coming to earth?

A, yes Jesus was human prior to coming
or
No Jesus was not human, will suffice.

I already answered you that Jesus did NOT have a flesh and blood body BEFORE coming to earth.

Humans have a flesh and blood body, Jesus did NOT.

Don't be dishonest and say I did not answer.

Jesus doesn't even have a human flesh and blood body now.

 

[NWL]

I already answered you that Jesus did NOT have a flesh and blood body BEFORE coming to earth.

Humans have a flesh and blood body, Jesus did NOT.

Don't be dishonest and say I did not answer.

You said: Jesus had a body before coming to earth. It was not a flesh and blood body
I asked: Is this you agreeing that Jesus was not a human prior to coming to earth?
You answered: Jesus did not have a flesh and blood body like humans have.

I then stated you didn't answer my question directly, you've then called me dishonest making a vague reference that I stated you didn't answer the question when that not what I said. Again, you did answer the question but you did NOT answer my question directly.

I am well aware of human anatomy and that humans are comprised of flesh and blood, but I asked you was Jesus Human prior to coming to earth and you have yet to answer if he was or not. I have had people claim to me before that Jesus was human but not a human of flesh and blood before but of spirit, my intention behind my question is to see if you believe Jesus was a human in any sense prior to coming to earth, thus you answer needs to be direct.

Do you believe Jesus was human before coming to earth, I am NOT asking if Jesus was flesh and blood, I already know you don't believe that, was Jesus human prior to earth?

 

[God's Truth]

You said: Jesus had a body before coming to earth. It was not a flesh and blood body
I asked: Is this you agreeing that Jesus was not a human prior to coming to earth?
You answered: Jesus did not have a flesh and blood body like humans have.

I then stated you didn't answer my question directly, you've then called me dishonest making a vague reference that I stated you didn't answer the question when that not what I said. Again, you did answer the question but you did NOT answer my question directly.

I am well aware of human anatomy and that humans are comprised of flesh and blood, but I asked you was Jesus Human prior to coming to earth and you have yet to answer if he was or not. I have had people claim to me before that Jesus was human but not a human of flesh and blood before but of spirit, my intention behind my question is to see if you believe Jesus was a human in any sense prior to coming to earth, thus you answer needs to be direct.

Do you believe Jesus was human before coming to earth, I am NOT asking if Jesus was flesh and blood, I already know you don't believe that, was Jesus human?

I did answer you.

HUMANS have FLESH and BLOOD BODIES.

Jesus did NOT have a flesh and blood body before coming to earth.

 

[popsthebuilder]

And you need to stop budding in into other people's conversations.
I am not attacking gt, and she knows it.
Her doctrine.... that is another thing altogether.

The devil thanks you for your defense of him and his false doctrine.

Calling a believer Satan isn't an attack?

Show how the doctrine she speaks of is of Satan or stop decieving people knowingly, which is, by the way, the work of the deciever.

Blind people really shouldn't be guides lest they and all who follow them walk straight way into a pit.

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[popsthebuilder]

Did not Jesus have a new body when He ate with the disciples after His resurrection? (John 21)
We will have that same kind of body when we are resurrected.

Paul said absent from the body present instantly with the Lord. I believe as Paul.
We do not die, our bodies/tent/tabernacle/dwelling, etc. die.
I/Me/Myself will never die.
I/Me/Myself will be instantly with the Lord the moment I breath my last breath.

Pretty sure his body beared the scars of his crucifixion at that time.

Could you try more please.

I'm not denying a new body after the second coming or end time.

I'm denying that any will be safe from experiencing death, except for those taken up upon the tribulation.

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