God's Truth
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You have not answered.
You have tried to explain the truth away.
Jesus says that HE HIMSELF will live in believers.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
You have not answered.
You have tried to explain the truth away.
Jesus says that HE HIMSELF will live in believers.
You continue to constantly ignore;
Luke 2:11 American Standard Version (ASV)
11 for there is born to you this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is [a]Christ the Lord.
keypurr
Well-known member
Nope, I have answered that many times for you.
You just do not like my answers.
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Rosenritter
New member
Do you realize that with that statement you just marked yourself as a heretic outside of the orthodox Trinity doctrine? Just curious as to how you answered on the poll.
Rosenritter
New member
Hello Rosenritter
Firstly, Jesus said to Satan, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. He didn't say I'm not worshipping you, you worship me I'm God. I don't believe that Jesus is God, he is the son of God, as he said himself, he never once called himself God the son, only the son of God and he always gave full glory to God the father. He even asked God to glorify him, because God is his God, and Jesus said himself, that God is the only true God and I have to believe him.
There's too much scripture showing that Jesus completely laid down his life and lived to do the will of the father, and that Christ also is under subjection to God, as shown in this scripture here
1 Corinthians 15
“And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”
Also, Jesus had to have had a free will, he said clearly not my will but thy will be done. So Jesus had a will, but he denied it completely to obey God and do Gods will. To say Jesus didn't have a will, is to take away how much he sacrificed for God. He gave his whole life up to do the Gods will and obey him and he denied himself completely to do so.
You can see the humble human side of Jesus, when he prayed in the garden before he was crucified. He was praying to his father and his God, just like we do when we go through suffering in our lives, Jesus said, without the father, he could do nothing. God is the God and father of Jesus as I have said before, he said to Mary, go tell my brethren that i go to my father and your father, my God and your God.i have to believe what Jesus says and he says that God is his God.
And I don't believe that because people worshipped Jesus that it means he's God, they saw God in him, Gods spirit lived fully through him as he was in his absolute image in every way. Where do we see Jesus in the Bible say, worship me, or I'm God the son? Nowhere. When Jesus perceived that they were going to make him a king, he ran away. He only wanted God his father to be glorified, and he is glorified in us, when we have the spirit of God in our hearts and others see that life of Christ in us.
I have to believe Jesus, I'm sorry but I can't believe anyone who tells me what to believe unless God reveals it to me that I'm wrong. But everything I read in the Bible points to one God, and his son Jesus Christ. Even the apostles said that God was the God of Jesus, they called God "the God of our lord Jesus Christ" I have to believe them. I don't think that God would have left out something so important as God the son from the Bible if Jesus was God the son. Also it says in the Bible, the father, son and holy ghost. Not God the father, God the son God the holy ghost. That isn't in the Bible.
It says in the Bible that the leaders of the Jews at that time picked up stones to stone Jesus, they accused him of making himself God, but he corrected them, he said "because i say I am the son of God"
Later on when the Jews went to Pilate to accuse Jesus, they changed what they said. They said
John 19
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God
So they now said because he makes himself the son of God, and they're not now saying that he made himself God.
Also, God sent Jesus, why would he have had to be sent if he was God? Over and over I see in the Bible that there is God the father and his son Jesus Christ, I'm not seeing God the son anywhere.
I believe that Jesus is the son of the living God, and I know he's the Christ. I can hear the spirit of God in his words and he lived to please the father always, and the father never left him, because he is his beloved son, in whom he is well pleased. Jesus came to bare witness to the truth, and bring us the love of God, and he is the only way back to God, and he is the life, and if we are his we will obey God be doers of the word and not hearers only. Walking the walk and walking in the spirit and worshipping God in spirit and in truth and we will be bringing Gods love to others.
I love Christ with all my heart for what he came and did for us, and when I read about his life and what he taught and hear his wisdom, it humbles me, without Jesus laying down his life, I'd never have known the living God and I'm forever grateful to him and I also love the lord my God who is the Almighty God with all my heart.
I hold nothing against anyone who believes differently, I'm just a sinner being saved by the grace of God through faith, and I have no right to judge another, but I have to believe what I see as right before God. And I believe that there is only one God and not a triune God.
Thank you for your post, it's quite long and I'll go through it again and study it properly when I have some quiet time, (hopefully later) I'm just going to tidy up the house now, so im not being ignorant if I don't answer you straight away
A friendly reply for consideration (when you do have time for reflection);
1) Consider all three of the responses of Jesus to Satan during the temptation in the wilderness. Each one of them has special if not more pointed application if Jesus was indeed God. Jesus will not worship Satan, because the devil should have worshiped him instead. Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from him... and isn't Jesus that Word that proceeds from God, even called the bread of life? Then Satan tries again to tempt Jesus, and his reply is that one should not tempt the Lord their God. The answers to those temptations by no means excludes Jesus, they seem even stronger as inclusions.
2) I see no conflict in Jesus being subject to God, because what would the alternative be? The alternative would be that Jesus would NOT be subject to God. That, if it was said or understood, would say that Jesus was not God, wouldn't it? But if Jesus was God you would expect him to be subject and not in opposition. Again, as per will, if the will of Jesus is subject to God then that also speaks agreement. Paul himself speaks in terms that sometimes he does what he wills not, and no one debates that these are different Pauls.
3) Consider this for a moment please. If Jesus had denied God or said that he had no God then what would that have said to people? Jesus was walking a mile in our shoes and standing in the role as a man, and in that aspect he does have a God. You could say that he is his own God without blasphemy. For that matter, when he calls himself the Rock, he is calling himself by the name of God. "Upon this Rock I will build my church" wasn't speaking about Peter.
4) You are correct that the Bible does not use the term "God the son" ... but that's a Trinity argument. Likewise for "God the Holy Ghost" ... but I do know that it does say that "his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6 KJV). I also know that God is a spirit (John 4:24), that he is the father of spirits (Hebrews 12:9) so how do you differentiate between them? God is the only "Holy Spirit" which is different from the created spirits. Again, this is not a Trinity argument, I am not using their terms because we don't find them in scripture. And when John 5:7 tells us that "these three are one" it does not say that "the One God is three." I am aware that the passage is missing from a lot of bibles, but it is legitimate, not a later addition. "These three are one" is not the same as "These three are as one" (not like husband and wife).
5) Is your God able to be in more than one place at a time? Is he able to stand on the earth and talk to Abraham, and still bring down fire from heaven upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah all at once? Genesis says he did. If he could do that with Abraham, then why would he be precluded from walking the earth as Jesus while still maintaining heaven during the same span? I exist on this board forum at the same time as in my house, can God not exist on earth and outside of earth at the same time as well?
6) Telling the Jews that he was the Son of God was not a correction, it was a confirmation. Look at the Psalm he cited to them, and he named himself as he who would separate them in the judgment, when they would die like men. "God judges among the gods" it said. "All judgment is given unto the Son" he had also said.
7) If you believe Jesus is our Christ, the also consider that he had the power to forgive sins. And who can forgive sin but God alone? If all sin is against God, who can forgive that sin except he against whom was ultimately transgressed against? If you rob a man and steal his money, I do not have the power to forgive you. You need to seek forgiveness from that man. For Jesus to forgive sin, he acknowledged that the sin was against him and he had the power and right to forgive. All sin is against God, as it violates his laws. Can you start to see this connection?
I will just leave this with a rhetorical question. If you trust God and Christ, would you suffer any distress if it were then revealed to you that the name of our God is Jesus? Would this cause you to reject him in any way? I don't think that it would, because if you love God and Christ, then you would also love God who is our Christ. Love would remain the same, acceptance of sacrifice for sin and repentance and forgiveness would remain the same. I do not see this as a dividing line. Perhaps something to be better understood, but not a stumbling block to salvation.
Rosenritter
New member
Keypurr, I don't think that's exactly right. How can Jesus (only) become the Christ when he was anointed, and not before, when the angel from heaven said that Jesus was the Christ on the day he was born?
Luke 2:10-11 KJV
(10) And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
(11) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
I am inclined to believe the angel in this case.
marhig
Well-known member
Hello
I understand suffering for Gods sake, with self denial, comes suffering, not only in my own heart but also from others who see the change in me. Who don't understand why I've so drastically changed, and suffering for bringing the living God to others. But it's worth it, God has shown me that the material things of this world and our selfish desires are nothing. He's cleaning my heart every day by giving me a strong conscience and the strength by the indwelling spirit to fight my flesh. And the rewards are amazing, it humbles me that God has even looked me, so much so that our breaks my heart to know how self willed and full of my own self I was. And that I thought so highly of the things that this world has to offer, but now I know that the thing that's precious is knowing God, and his holy son Jesus Christ, and the presence of his spirit in my heart, guiding me and teaching me, turning me from thinking about me, to thinking of others. I've never felt peace like it. I feel like I've been released from a prison.
If we're not partaking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of God, then we're not truly following Jesus because, he said deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me. And that if we lose our life for his sake, we'll find it. I believe that i am to lay down my life for God and to bring him to others, and follow Jesus.
I'm just going out, and I'll be out for most of the day, I do have a couple of things to go over later with you if that's ok.
But one thing I would like to say, is to point out something in your last paragraph.
You said that if we love God and Christ, then we'll love God who is our Christ
I love God and Christ with all my heart, and I love God in Christ. But I don't believe that Christ is God. Because he says this himself, that he's his son, and that God is his God, and i believe Jesus.
I have quite a bit to answer there, but my daughter's are calling me to go. were meeting my mum
Thank you for your civil reply
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keypurr
Well-known member
The book was written many years later. So the subject is psst tense.
Example:
President Kennedy was born in Boston. Was he President when he was born? No he was not.
Same with Jesus, he became the Christ after Christ dwelled in him at his baptism.
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Rosenritter
New member
But the angel is quoted as speaking in present tense. Aside from that though, do you have any solid statement saying that Jesus was not Christ until a certain date? Considering the angel's direct statement then, I think that is what you would need to continue your theory in good faith.
lifeisgood
New member
Why do you think Jesus came into this vile world? Just because?
Why do you think Jesus willingly gave His life as a ransom for many? Just because?
If you do not believe that Jesus paid your debt that you owe God and CANNOT pay then you have no Savior.
Where do you think Jesus paid the debt YOU owe God?
If your faith is not in Him and His completed mission your faith is in the wrong object.
Not talking to you now.
One verse is NOT enough. That is making a pretext taking the single verse out of its perfect context.
He came to give His life as a ransom.
“Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:28).
He came to do the will of God.
“Then He added, ‘Look, I have come to do Your will’” (Hebrews 10:9).
He came to save sinners.
“Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (I Timothy 1:15).
He came to put away sin.
“Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Hebrews 9:26).
“You know that He appeared in order to take away sins” (I John 3:5).
“Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29).
Compare John 1:35, Leviticus 16:20-22, Isaiah 53:6, II Corinthians 5:21.
He came to destroy the works of the devil.
“The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil” (I John 3:8).
“Only as a human being could He die, and only by dying could He break the power of the Devil, who had the power of death” (Hebrews 2:14).
“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” (John 12:31).
“For the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me” (John 14:30).
He came to bear our sins.
“He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross” (I Peter 2:24).
“Christ . . . having been offered once to bear the sins of many” (Hebrews 9:28).
How does, marhig, believe He did that? I’ll tell you how, He gave His life willingly to die on the Cross of Calvary to pay the debt we owe God and cannot pay.
The Cross of Calvary brought about the renting of the veil in the Temple, not His life, not His many miracles, not His sermons, not His teachings, not His incarnation, not his Resurrection, but HIS DEATH rent the veil in the Temple.
"The Father loves me because I give my life. I give my life so that I can get it back again. No person takes my life away from me. I give my own life freely. I have the right to give my life. And I have the right to get it back again. This is what the Father told me." — John 10:17-18
Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins and through HIS DEATH the penalty was paid and now WHOSOEVER believe in Jesus the Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary can have what that DEATH purchased. However, the person can only have what He purchased on the Cross of Calvary by believing Him AND His finished work on the Cross of Calvary.
He absorbed the wrath of God while on the Cross of Calvary. God publicly endorsed Christ’s accomplishment by raising him from the dead.
Because of Him and His finished mission those who believe in Him and His finished mission can escape the curse of the law.
Because of Him and His finished mission those who believe in Him and His finished mission are reconciled to God.
Because of Him and His finished mission those who believe in Him and His finished mission are freed from our condemnation.
Him and His finished mission bring those who believe Him and His finished mission to God.
Him and His finished mission give eternal life to all who believe on Him and what He did on the Cross of Calvary — paid our debt we owed God and cannot pay.
Now, you, marhig, can accept Him and what He did on the Cross of Calvary as the ONLY way for you to be found 'in Him' and be found saved or you can continue to present the work of your hands which have already been rejected.
One's eternal destination is at stake here. You get Jesus the Christ and His mission wrong, it matters not what else you get right. You, marhig, got Jesus wrong and His mission wrong.
lifeisgood
New member
My body goes back to the earth from where it came; however, I will go to be with God because of Jesus Christ and what He did on the Cross of Calvary for God is the God of the living not of the dead.
lifeisgood
New member
You, keypurr, have declared that Luke was written much later after the facts, HOWEVER, you believe Acts (written by the same author as Luke many years after the facts)
God's Truth
New member
Do you think I care that the Catholics call me a heretic?
There are three, and the three are one and the same.
Rosenritter
New member
I didn't say I disagreed. But I wasn't thinking about Catholics, rather the James White style Protestants.
Yeah, we know, you are a heretic. And I'm not a Catholic.
Rosenritter
New member
How is that helpful Bright Raven?
Right Divider
Body part
How is that helpful Rosenritter?
Rosenritter
New member
Why do you say that Jesus absorbed the wrath of God? I mean, regardless of how many times one may have heard people repeat that phrase, where is that written? Are you sure it says that?
Rosenritter
New member
Please allow me to explain Sir Divider. On one side we have someone that says that they believe the Bible, that they love their God and the Lord Jesus Christ. He affirms the scripture, even 1 John 5:7 "These three are one". On the other side the response is to brand him a heretic. How is such an accusation or division helpful to the gospel or the body of Christ?
On the other hand, perhaps identifying actions like this for examination might help us to bind together, and where sharing or instruction is needed, to be able to do so properly as the Spirit would guide in love, long suffering, peace, joy. That is how I am trying to help.
It may be that there is a certain understanding already and such comments are made in jest, but given some of the tenor of comments on threads like this that is not usually a safe assumption.
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