The Trinity

[God's Truth]

When Jesus was saved??? Are you serious.

I said that IN RESPONSE to what DavidK said. DavidK said when Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit is when Jesus received the Holy Spirit.

When we are baptized with the Holy Spirit THAT IS WHEN we are saved.

So then, if Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit until he was baptized---then he is saying he was not yet saved.

JESUS IS the Holy Spirit, and HAD the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was baptized.

 

[God's Truth]

The Bible is clear that the apostles had the Holy Spirit living inside them, and then the Holy Spirit came upon them with power later...just like Jesus.

 

[DavidK]

You asked why they had different names, and I showed you where their names are the same.

That is right that is while Jesus was a Man on earth.

Jesus is not a Man on earth anymore.

So while Jesus was on earth, God separated into two people, but at His resurrection they rejoined?

So you think you disproved what I said how?

I don't think it disproved anything. It was a question. Did He act like He was submitting to the will of another person for our benefit, even though there is no other person to submit to?

God really came as a Man how do you get it could be a play act?

Yes, we agree God came as a man. But if that same God in flesh prays to someone and submits to their will, even though there is no other person, why isn't it an act?

We are not talking about you though.
The Father hears you but that does not make you God, or the Creator, Redeemer, Savior, Shepherd, etc.

Nowhere have I said it did. The Father hearing Jesus does not make Him God, Creator, Redeemer, Savior, Shepherd, etc. either. He is all those things, but the Father hearing Him is not evidence of it.

Again, it is NOT about you. We know there are MANY spirits, but only One Divine Spirit.

Read more carefully for I said ONE DIVINE Spirit.

It's not about reading more carefully. You said it in a different post than this one. In that post, I responded to your clarification.

Is God not Divine? Is Jesus Divine? Is the Holy Spirit Divine?

Yes they are and they are one and the same Spirit.

Your spirit is NOT Divine.

The Holy Spirit in me is. And 1 Cor 6:17 says I am one spirit with them. I don't believe that makes me divine, or indistinct from them, but your logic seems to make 1 Cor 6:17 say that.

Indeed, you wrote "divine spirit", but the scripture doesn't. It says Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one spirit (pneuma) but that believers are one spirit (pneuma) as well. There's no distinction made.

This is just like your "Father always hears me". If the same can be said of believers as the Son, then it removes it as evidence that they are indistinct.

The Father always hears Jesus. The Father always hears believers. Since believers are not the same as the Father, always hearing Jesus does not support that Jesus is the same as the father.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of one pneuma. Believers are of one pneuma with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Since believers are not the same as the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, you can not make being of one pneuma evidence that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same.

There is only ONE SPIRIT that means Jesus is God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Did I miss you citing the verses you're using to support this? Is it Ephesians 4:4, because I said why that verse doesn't support your assertion. Or is there another?

We have our own spirit, which when we obey God, we are transformed into the likeness of His Son, but that does NOT made us God, Father, Savior, Redeemer, Shepherd, etc.

Those are the name of God the Father and the Son.

Well, technically, Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd (poimen)" and Paul said He gave some of us to be shepherds (poimen, usually translated pastor, but the same word). So we at least have that, but I definitely make a distinction between The Shepherd and the shepherds in the Church.

Are any of those names applied to the Holy Spirit, since all three are the same?

 

[God's Truth]

That scripture proves that they are separate. Check out the use of the pronoun we, more than one.

The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three, and those three are Spirit, and there is only ONE DIVINE Spirit. That makes God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit one and the same.

 

[Bright Raven]

I said that IN RESPONSE to what DavidK said. DavidK said when Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit is when Jesus received the Holy Spirit.

When we are baptized with the Holy Spirit THAT IS WHEN we are saved.

So then, if Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit until he was baptized---then he is saying he was not yet saved.

JESUS IS the Holy Spirit, and HAD the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was baptized.

Do you have a problem with this passage? It proves the Father, Son and Spirit separate entities.

Matthew 3:16-17 King James Version (KJV)

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[DavidK]

I said that IN RESPONSE to what DavidK said. DavidK said when Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit is when Jesus received the Holy Spirit.

When we are baptized with the Holy Spirit THAT IS WHEN we are saved.

So then, if Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit until he was baptized---then he is saying he was not yet saved.

JESUS IS the Holy Spirit, and HAD the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was baptized.

Jesus was never saved because he didn't need to be saved. You've been putting a lot of words in my mouth during this conversation.

The Spirit descended upon Him at His baptism, that's clear from scripture. I find it nonsensical to say the Spirit descended upon someone who He was already upon. I find it even more nonsensical to say the Spirit descended upon someone who He is, unless at least some distinction can be made between the two.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I gave you many scriptures that explain they were hardened. Why are you ignoring those scriptures?

I do not deny that some of them were hardened.

But why do you not believed that two-thirds of the people in the land will "die"?

 

[DavidK]

No. Jesus said receive the Spirit. The Old Testament was about the Spirit coming UPON others.

No. Not to come back to them...but to come UPON them with POWER.

I understand the distinction you're making, but I don't agree. When Jesus told them to receive the Spirit, it was to empower them for ministry. The Spirit did enable them to miraculous things.

I realize that He told them to wait in Jerusalem until they would be imbued with power. I see the distinction here not to be a difference in power, but a difference in relationship. Because of His death, resurrection, and ascension the way was made for the Spirit to indwell men unlike ever before, even during Jesus' earthly ministry.

John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

This looks like two separate people to me, without considerable mental gymnastics.

Jesus says to his Apostles that they know the Holy Spirit because he lives with them. JESUS WAS THE ONE LIVING WITH THEM. Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

Can you give me the verse your referring to here, please?

Jesus said that he would send another comforter, the Holy Spirit. He also said that he would not leave them as orphans that HE WILL COME TO THEM.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

This is at the time Jesus told them that he would send them another comforter. Jesus explains to them that it is HE.

Instead of their thinking Jesus is coming to live with them in the flesh again, he says another, because he is not coming to them in the flesh, but in another way...just in the Spirit.[/quote]

Why didn't he say, "I'll come to you another way"? If I told someone I was going to leave but send another, then I came back dressed up different, wouldn't that be a distortion of the truth?

I do NOT mean it that way.

I mean that I do not think that you are considering carefully everything that I am saying because you are asking the same questions which I already gave an answer; and, you are not even discussing many of my points and scriptures that I am giving.

I hope that you do not lose interest for having your pride hurt. That would defeat what you are trying to say about humbleness. Please let's keep talking about it.

Thanks for the clarification, it was starting to look like you were seeing this as a teaching opportunity, rather than a conversation. My pride is not hurt at all, but I'd like to think that you're trying to listen and weigh my thoughts as much as you expect me to listen and weigh yours.

If I repeat my questions, it's not for having read and considered, but that your response doesn't seem to answer my question.

There ARE three.

And here's where you have me confused. If there are three, then how are they completely the same and not separate? If they are completely the same and not separate, how are there three?

I believe classical trinitarian thought answers this. There is one God, one being, who is comprised of three distinct persons. Trying to fully understand this is a bit like a square understand a cube, but it is the most coherent explanation for what we find in scripture.

One person who changes roles puts God in the position of putting on plays, since there are many instances where the different roles interact with each other as distinct persons with distinct wills, though nevertheless in perfect unity, one spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

So while Jesus was on earth, God separated into two people, but at His resurrection they rejoined?

No, not quite. The Father and Jesus were never separate, they are the same. God the Father came as a Son of Man. When Jesus ascended to heaven he was exalted to the place he was before coming to earth.

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

I don't think it disproved anything. It was a question. Did He act like He was submitting to the will of another person for our benefit, even though there is no other person to submit to?

There are three.
There is God the Father in heaven who lives in unapproachable light;
And there is God the Father come as a Man on earth.

Yes, we agree God came as a man. But if that same God in flesh prays to someone and submits to their will, even though there is no other person, why isn't it an act?

God came as a Man. Who but God the Father should man pray to?

Nowhere have I said it did. The Father hearing Jesus does not make Him God, Creator, Redeemer, Savior, Shepherd, etc. either. He is all those things, but the Father hearing Him is not evidence of it.

You are the one who gave yourself as an example.
Jesus is all those things the Father is called…Father, God, Shepherd, Redeemer, etc.

The Holy Spirit in me is. And 1 Cor 6:17 says I am one spirit with them. I don't believe that makes me divine, or indistinct from them, but your logic seems to make 1 Cor 6:17 say that.

Indeed, you wrote "divine spirit", but the scripture doesn't. It says Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one spirit (pneuma) but that believers are one spirit (pneuma) as well. There's no distinction made.

The scriptures say there is One Spirit.
Now tell me if God the Father is Spirit?
Is Jesus a Spirit?
Is the Holy Spirit is a Spirit?

So if there are three and the three are Spirit, and there is only one Spirit---then the three are one and the same Spirit.

This is just like your "Father always hears me". If the same can be said of believers as the Son, then it removes it as evidence that they are indistinct.

You said, “Indistinct”. However, everywhere in the Bible we are shown that they are exactly the same.

The Father always hears Jesus. The Father always hears believers. Since believers are not the same as the Father, always hearing Jesus does not support that Jesus is the same as the father.

Again, just because we are not the Father does not mean Jesus is not the Father.

Our blood does not wash away sins. We did not come from heaven…

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of one pneuma. Believers are of one pneuma with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Since believers are not the same as the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, you can not make being of one pneuma evidence that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same.

They are exactly the same.

Did I miss you citing the verses you're using to support this? Is it Epehesians 4:4, because I said why that verse doesn't support your assertion. Or is there another?

There is another.
Tell me, did you look up all the scriptures that say Jesus is the Father, God, Spirit, Redeemer, Savior, Holy One of Israel, Shepherd, etc?
Did you happen to notice that those are all the names God the Father is called?

Well, technically, Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd (poimen)" and Paul said He gave some of us to be shepherds (poimen, usually translated pastor, but the same word). So we at least have that, but I definitely make a distinction between The Shepherd and the shepherds in the Church.

Again, it is not about us. We are NOT THE SHEPHERD.

Are any of those names applied to the Holy Spirit, since all three are the same?

Tell me, do you believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father?

 

[DavidK]

The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three, and those three are Spirit, and there is only ONE DIVINE Spirit. That makes God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit one and the same.

All right.

Are the soul and spirit of a man two distinct things?

Is it possible that God, being deeper and more full than any human, could exist as three souls with one Spirit?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Again, THAT IS A THIRD.

Here it talks about everyone who will belong to the house of Israel and the house of Judah and there is not even a hint that anyone from those houses are not saved. After all, we read:

"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:34).​

You just refuse tobelieve what is taught on this subject. the Scriptures say that two-thirds of those in the land will "die." You say that those people will only be "hardened."

You say that the above passage is speaking of only a "remnant" of those two houses but the Scriptures reveal that ALL of those from the two houses will be saved.

Anyone can make the Scriptures say anything which they want them to say using your method.

However, the spiritual Christian deals with the Scriptures AS THEY ARE WRITTEN.

 

[God's Truth]

All right.

Are the soul and spirit of a man two distinct things?

Our spirit makes our physical body a living soul.

When our physical bodies die, our spirit goes either to heaven or prison/hell.

Is it possible that God, being deeper and more full than any human, could exist as three souls with one Spirit?

God the Father is Spirit, He is invisible and lives in unapproachable. light.

God the Father made Himself a physical body with His Spirit to live in.

That is Jesus Christ---God the invisible Father made visible.

 

[Bright Raven]

The Father is not the Son or the Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Spirit. The Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

Matthew 28:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

[DavidK]

No, not quite. The Father and Jesus were never separate, they are the same. God the Father came as a Son of Man. When Jesus ascended to heaven he was exalted to the place he was before coming to earth.

God the Father sits at His own right hand?

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

So what he really meant was not "to my father" but "to rebecome my Father"?

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Again, God is talking to Himself here?

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Given by whom?

There are three.
There is God the Father in heaven who lives in unapproachable light;
And there is God the Father come as a Man on earth.

But not at the same time. The first becomes the second, dies, then ascends to become the first again? Am I getting that right?

God came as a Man. Who but God the Father should man pray to?

So He was praying to Himself as an act to show us how to pray? And when He submitted to His own will, that was an act to show us to submit to Him?

The scriptures say there is One Spirit.
Now tell me if God the Father is Spirit?
Is Jesus a Spirit?
Is the Holy Spirit is a Spirit?

So if there are three and the three are Spirit, and there is only one Spirit---then the three are one and the same Spirit.

Absolutely. One spirit, three different persons. You have yet to demonstrate that being of one spirit means being exactly the same. On the other hand, I've shown scripture that says we are of one spirit, with the exact same words as used to describe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Being of one spirit does not mean being exactly the same.

You said, “Indistinct”. However, everywhere in the Bible we are shown that they are exactly the same.

Except when they talk to each other. Or when they come and go from each other. Or the fact that the Father is not the lamb who was slain and is now risen, or that the Holy Spirit is not the one who sits at the right hand of the Father or who is worthy to open the scrolls.

My whole family shares a name with me, but they are not the same as me. My two children share a variation on the same middle name, but they are not the same.

Again, just because we are not the Father does not mean Jesus is not the Father.

I never said that. I said the Father always hearing Jesus and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being of one spirit does not mean they are the same, because both things apply to us, and we are not the same.

There is another.
Tell me, did you look up all the scriptures that say Jesus is the Father, God, Spirit, Redeemer, Savior, Holy One of Israel, Shepherd, etc?
Did you happen to notice that those are all the names God the Father is called?

I didn't go looking for them, because I'm already aware those names apply to both. Did you read my response that Jesus is the begotten Son of the Father, the reflection and complete expression of Him, and therefore naturally has many of His names?

Does the Holy Spirit have all those same names? Are there any that the Son and Holy Spirit have that the Father does not?

Tell me, do you believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father?

And the Spirit of Jesus, too. That does not make them all the same person.

 

[God's Truth]

Here it talks about everyone who will belong to the house of Israel and the house of Judah and there is not even a hint that anyone from those houses are not saved. After all, we read:

"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:34).​

That is about when Jesus came the first time and until he comes again. All have a chance to be saved.

You just refuse tobelieve what is taught on this subject. the Scriptures say that two-thirds of those in the land will "die." You say that those people will only be "hardened."

You say cut off and hardened is different than cut off and die.

Why are you taking the scriptures about cut off and separating them when the New Testament is quoting the Old Testament?

Jesus FULFILLED all those scriptures when he came the first time.

You say that the above passage is speaking of only a "remnant" of those two houses but the Scriptures reveal that ALL of those from the two houses will be saved.

You said 1/3. That is a remnant.

There is a physical death and a spiritual death.

Anyone can make the Scriptures say anything which they want them to say using your method.

However, the spiritual Christian deals with the Scriptures AS THEY ARE WRITTEN.

Then why are YOU DISMISSING all the scriptures in the NEW Testament which deals with Jeremiah 31:34? Such as these:

Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,

 

[God's Truth]

The Father is not the Son or the Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Spirit. The Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

Matthew 28:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

There are three and the three are one and the same.

Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39
Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

 

[jamie]

What did the Son mean when He cried out asking the Father why He had been forsaken?

It was in the context of the second death.

However, Jesus became sin for us and experienced the second death for those who accept him as the symbolic Lamb of God.

 

[Bright Raven]

There are three and the three are one and the same.

Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39
Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

You are mistaken. Each one of those scriptures reenforces the trinity. In case you have not heard the trinity believes that God is ONE.

 

[God's Truth]

God the Father sits at His own right hand?

God the Father is Spirit and invisible, and Jesus Christ is God the Father with a body.

Yes, Jesus is sitting at His own right hand of the Father invisible.

So what he really meant was not "to my father" but "to rebecome my Father"?

There are three. It is as if you forget that when I explain.

Again, God is talking to Himself here?

There are three. You could say that Jesus was speaking to Himself.
Jesus is God the Father who really did come as a Man.

Given by whom?
But not at the same time. The first becomes the second, dies, then ascends to become the first again? Am I getting that right?

God the Father is Spirit and lives in unapproachable light. Agree?

John 4:24 God is spirit,

1 Timothy 6:16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.



The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God that God sends forth. Agree?



God the Father is through all the saved, Ephesians 4:6



So knowing those things, how do you not know that Jesus’ Spirit is the Spirit of God and that Jesus is the invisible God with a physical body?

So He was praying to Himself as an act to show us how to pray? And when He submitted to His own will, that was an act to show us to submit to Him?

You can say it that way.
God the Father came as a Man to show us the Way.
As long as you do not forget that the Father was also in heaven.

Absolutely. One spirit, three different persons. You have yet to demonstrate that being of one spirit means being exactly the same.

There is only one Spirit and that means that one Spirit is God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

On the other hand, I've shown scripture that says we are of one spirit, with the exact same words as used to describe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Being of one spirit does not mean being exactly the same.

We have our own spirit living inside of us, AND when we are saved we are given the Spirit of God/the Spirit of Christ/ the Holy Spirit.

However, Jesus’ Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father.

Except when they talk to each other. Or when they come and go from each other. Or the fact that the Father is not the lamb who was slain and is now risen, or that the Holy Spirit is not the one who sits at the right hand of the Father or who is worthy to open the scrolls.

My whole family shares a name with me, but they are not the same as me. My two children share a variation on the same middle name, but they are not the same.

The scriptures say there is no other.

I never said that. I said the Father always hearing Jesus and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being of one spirit does not mean they are the same, because both things apply to us, and we are not the same.

I can show you scriptures that show they are the same.

I didn't go looking for them, because I'm already aware those names apply to both. Did you read my response that Jesus is the begotten Son of the Father, the reflection and complete expression of Him, and therefore naturally has many of His names?

Does the Holy Spirit have all those same names? Are there any that the Son and Holy Spirit have that the Father does not?

And the Spirit of Jesus, too. That does not make them all the same person.

But there is only ONE Spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

You are mistaken. Each one of those scriptures reenforces the trinity. In case you have not heard the trinity believes that God is ONE.

One even means 'the same'.

There is no one like me.

There is no other...