The Trinity

The Trinity


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Rosenritter

New member
By nature a person IS an individual. If you don't know what a person is, then you should not have replied in the first place.

Is Jesus the Lamb of God and the Lion of Judah?

If yes, then WHY did you put all of those on your "list" of "persons"?
If no, then you need to go to Bible school.

A "person" is also used for a character. For example, Han Solo and Indiana Jones are two different "persons" of Harrison Ford.

If "person" means "individual" then God is one person, which agrees with the scripture of Hebrews that also addresses God as a singular person. Jesus Christ is the express image of the person of God, it says.

But you don't like that scripture, and you really want God to be multiple persons. So if that is what matters to you, I will use a definition that allows God to consist of multiple persons that does not contradict the scripture, "Our LORD God is one LORD", "I am my Father are one" "These three are One." One God, besides whom there is no other God, he who alone made the heavens and the earth. Not as a team, as one individual.

Isa 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 37:16 KJV
(16) O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Joh 1:3 KJV
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The difference between my proposed usage of the word "persons" and your insistent usage of the word "persons" is that my usage doesn't require polytheism. Why are all of those on my list of persons? Because they are different titles or roles or appearances. God played a different role as Jesus than he took as the pillar of cloud and fire that lead Israel in the wilderness, and still a different role than the "still small voice" or as when he spoke to Job.

Yes, this sounds different than what you believe, but what you believe is the product of simply repeating traditions of men. No one starts from a clean slate, picks up the Bible, and reads a Trinity from scripture only. I read the scripture and I can see that it says we have One God and that Jesus is God. Should you be able to show me where the Bible clearly teaches a Trinity I would concede to that gladly. In the meantime, cease the rabid condemnation and mocking of others when you are unable to define your own doctrine from scripture.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Realize that laymen will fall into the tritheism category at times, but the Trinitarian view is not polytheism traditionally/historically.

Thanks for answering btw, and with this much attention to the question.

Some of the modality of the triune view seems lost this century. While I classically/traditionally embrace the Trinitarian view, I prefer to use 'triune' as it expresses more clearly, I think, what you are getting at here.

They are all an attempt to reconcile scripture but I believe we are served better, not worse, to look to the creeds, simply because there is a tried/true history of debate and discussion of the problems that produced the creeds. For me, it is better to discuss creeds because many men, rather than one or two, worked from their own bible readings, together, and produced what they believed scriptures necessarily had to say about subjects. I don't agree with every precept of every creed, but I believe they are genuinely a good place to start instead of reinventing the wheel. There are scriptural directives, for instance, to listen and learn from our elders. I think reading them more than just a good idea (my two cents and philosophy on the matter).


Theology is such a large area of study, that short-cuts, even if problematic to our own particular understandings, are good ways to provide another a grasp of where another is coming from. You would know a bit about me if I told you, for instance, that I was a Calvinist. A lot of people, after hearing that, have told me I'm not very Calvinistic, but it is a good place to get a general grasp of where I'm coming from. I certainly disagree on points with other Calvinists, but it at least gives one a place to start hanging ideas about me and getting a handle from where I am coming from. After that, it is merely clarity of where I might differ so you don't have to guess as much where I'm coming from but from where you'd think I diverge or compare it to one's own understanding of Calvinism. I don't seem to really fit the mold in some folk's expectation of what a Calvinist should look like, but for me, it is the doctrine I see best suited to my understanding of scripture.

Thanks for take a few moments both to answer and read this reply as well. In Him -Lon

I acknowledge that it is important to try to understand scripture. There are things we are told straight out, and other things left for us to fill in the pieces. I think it is important to recognize Jesus as God because how else can we know who this is that loves us? As far as understanding how God can be in heaven and on earth at the same time we make our models.

I acknowledge that "Triune" even if not perfectly accurate may still be a helpful model. I have a model for the solar system in my head which is not a perfectly accurate model but it works for when it is needed. The planets aren't really perfectly round, nor in the scale that I think of in my head, there is really a lot more empty space than I would show when I draw a picture, but it accomplishes its task.

Similarly, if "Triune" helps someone understand how Jesus can be our God and Savior then I approve. I disapprove when it simply becomes a tool for condemnation of others who cannot acknowledge it on good faith because of areas where the model may have shortcomings.

I think that many people are simply "Trinitarian" in name because they would be harassed and attacked otherwise... not because it is something that they could prove if required. But if this is the case, then isn't the object (creed) being given a higher place than scripture? Should we obey God rather than men? And isn't idolatry when a thing is given greater reverence than that which made it? I consider this a real problem more than any possible shortcomings in the model itself.
 

Right Divider

Body part
A "person" is also used for a character. For example, Han Solo and Indiana Jones are two different "persons" of Harrison Ford.
WOW.... How can anyone have an intelligent conversion with you?

Fictional "characters" are NOT real PERSONS. The fact that an ACTOR can PLAY multiple characters has no barring on the question at hand here.

If you are going to use this sort of fallacious "reasoning", then I'll just leave you in your error.

If "person" means "individual" then God is one person, which agrees with the scripture of Hebrews that also addresses God as a singular person. Jesus Christ is the express image of the person of God, it says.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are spoken of SEPARATELY in the scripture and YET all three are said to BE GOD. If you cannot handle that, so be it.

But you don't like that scripture, and you really want God to be multiple persons.
Nonsense, I let the scripture speak for itself and it describes God as three PERSONS. The Father is person who speaks about His Son, who is a person. The Son, who is a person, speaks to His Father... who is a person.

So if that is what matters to you, I will use a definition that allows God to consist of multiple persons that does not contradict the scripture, "Our LORD God is one LORD", "I am my Father are one" "These three are One." One God, besides whom there is no other God, he who alone made the heavens and the earth.
Well done! That is exactly what the doctrine of the trinity says.

Not as a team, as one individual.
That is NOT what the doctrine of the trinity says. That is a fail. God is ONE God.

Isa 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 37:16 KJV
(16) O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Joh 1:3 KJV
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
All fully in agreement with the trinity doctrine.

The difference between my proposed usage of the word "persons" and your insistent usage of the word "persons" is that my usage doesn't require polytheism.
Again with the FALSE accusation!

Why are all of those on my list of persons? Because they are different titles or roles or appearances.
It is YOU that has NO idea what a person is. I am a man, a father, a son, a husband, a grand-father and YET I am ONE PERSON!

Your idea that multiple titles make multiple persons is, quite frankly, dumb.

God played a different role as Jesus than he took as the pillar of cloud and fire that lead Israel in the wilderness, and still a different role than the "still small voice" or as when he spoke to Job.
God does NOT play "roles". That is false and dangerous idea.

Yes, this sounds different than what you believe, but what you believe is the product of simply repeating traditions of men.
False accusation #1,000,000

No one starts from a clean slate, picks up the Bible, and reads a Trinity from scripture only. I read the scripture and I can see that it says we have One God and that Jesus is God. Should you be able to show me where the Bible clearly teaches a Trinity I would concede to that gladly. In the meantime, cease the rabid condemnation and mocking of others when you are unable to define your own doctrine from scripture.
You can say what whatever you want, but it's clear that you are extremely confused.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I think that many people are simply "Trinitarian" in name because they would be harassed and attacked otherwise... not because it is something that they could prove if required. But if this is the case, then isn't the object (creed) being given a higher place than scripture? Should we obey God rather than men? And isn't idolatry when a thing is given greater reverence than that which made it? I consider this a real problem more than any possible shortcomings in the model itself.
Simply: There is one God. The Father, Son, and Spirit are Him. I believe this is soundly scriptural.
 

Rosenritter

New member
God does NOT play "roles". That is false and dangerous idea.

You can say what whatever you want, but it's clear that you are extremely confused.

So the idea that God, the creator of heaven and earth, took on the role of the Passover Lamb, is a false, dangerous, and confused idea? And that bit about returning in the role of King of Kings over the entire earth is dangerous as well? Do you also object to my "false idea" that he has taken the role of our High Priest so that he may intercede between God and men?


 

Right Divider

Body part
So the idea that God, the creator of heaven and earth, took on the role of the Passover Lamb, is a false, dangerous, and confused idea? And that bit about returning in the role of King of Kings over the entire earth is dangerous as well?
Thank you for ignoring the entire post and sticking with your idea that God plays roles, like an actor.
 

marhig

New member
It is not my opinion, marhig. I have given you Scripture and you openly REJECTED them, saying that that is not what the verses say because you, marhig, do not agree with the Bible. There is nothing else I can do if you reject what the Bible says.



You do not believe in Him and His shed BLOOD at the Cross of Calvary which is what rent the veil of separation between you and God, there is nothing else to save you being that you reject the BLOOD.

Remember the ones who say to Christ Jesus, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' I think that is found in Mark 7.

Notice, how they called Christ Jesus, ‘Lord, Lord’? But Christ Jesus said, ‘I never knew you’.

You cannot separate Christ Jesus from His legal work finished on the Cross of Calvary. If you get Jesus wrong, it matters not what else you get right. You, marhig, got Jesus wrong.

I, lifeisgood, do not have the power, nor want the power, to convince you of anything. That is between you and God.



What rent the veil of separation between you and God, marhig? When did Jesus say 'It is finished'? At the Incarnation? While performing miracles? How about when He was healing? When He was preaching?

When you answer that, you will have found what rent the veil of separation between you and God --- it is Christ Jesus and His precious BLOOD shed on the Cross of Calvary.

I, lifeisgood, do not have the power, nor want the power, to convince you of anything. That is between you and God.



No, you will have no hope if you reject coming through the BLOOD because God said 'When I see the BLOOD...' then, I, God, will pass over you (save you). If God does not see the BLOOD there is no hope.



I have. You, marhig, have already rejected the Scriptures.

God said, 'When I see the BLOOD....' I'll pass over you (save you), therefore, the contrary of that is 'When I do not see the blood....' you'll be lost.

I, lifeisgood, do not have the power, nor want the power, to convince you of anything. That is between you and God.

Um, no you haven't, I have yet to see the scripture that actually says that we are saved by Christ's death at Calvary, or that the holy spirit only works within the hearts of those who believe in this way?

I'm not talking about the blood, I believe in the blood of Christ, just not as you do, you don't seem to be listening to me. I'm talking about being saved by the death of Christ on the cross?

So it's simple, you don't have to say the same thing over and over. I honestly want to see where it says this about being saved by Jesus' death on the cross, and that the spirit isn't given to those unless they believe in this? Which chapter and verse does it actually say the above?

I've only ever seen that we are saved by believing in Jesus and the gospel and by the grace of God through faith.

And we are to follow Jesus once we believe and deny ourselves and bare our cross and remain faithful obey God.

You should be careful how you judge others, only God knows all of our hearts.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
I have studied your "thought" enough to know that it's false.

Even though I doubt that you'll believe the Bible:
Zech 14:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)
(14:1) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. (14:2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (14:3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (14:4) ¶ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (14:5) And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.

Above is the LORD's RETURN, just like the angels said that HE WOULD:
Acts 1:9-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (1:10) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; (1:11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (1:12) Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

So simple that a child can understand it.
Then why are you having such a problem?

Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app
 

Right Divider

Body part
Just answer the question please.
No thanks. I will not answer you until you fess up to your earlier comments.

Is it a false dangerous confused idea to believe that God plays the role of Passover Sacrifice, Returning King, and High Priest?
As I told you, God is not an actor (like your Harrison Ford).

P.S. Until you can tell the difference between a TITLE and the PERSON holding that title, there is no hope for you understanding anything else.
 

God's Truth

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King Saul was the LORD's Messiah.
Was King Saul GOD?

2Sa 1:16 And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the LORD'S anointed.
2Sa 1:17 And David lamented with this lamentation over Saul and over Jonathan his son:


King David was the LORD's Messiah.
Was King David GOD?

2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,


Cyrus King of Persia was the LORD's Messiah.
Was King Cyrus GOD?


Isa 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

There are two points I want to make to you.

The first one is they are called gods.

John 10:34
Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods' ?

Psalm 82:86 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'



The other point I want to make to you is that Jesus did not just have the Holy Spirit come upon him with power---his Spirit IS THE Holy Spirit.

So Jesus is God with a body.

We are not just flesh, we all have our own spirits inside of us, and Jesus had the Spirit of God .
When one is saved, they receive the Spirit of God to live with our spirit, but again, Jesus' Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
 

God's Truth

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Yes.
To separate a believer's faith from Christ Jesus and His finished legal work on the Cross of Calvary.

Jesus did not die so that we do not have to obey.

Jesus died so that we no longer have to sacrifice animals just to go to the temple to worship, for Jesus is the Lamb and blood sacrifice, and he reconciles us to God when we become the temple.

Nowhere anywhere in the Bible are we told we do not have to obey to be saved or to stay saved.

The Bible says plainly that the Holy Spirit is given to those who OBEY. See Acts 5:32.
 

Right Divider

Body part
There are two points I want to make to you.

The first one is they are called gods.

John 10:34
Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods' ?

Psalm 82:86 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

The other point I want to make to you is that Jesus did not just have the Holy Spirit come upon him with power---his Spirit IS THE Holy Spirit.

So Jesus is God with a body.

We are not just flesh, we all have our own spirits inside of us, and Jesus had the Spirit of God .
When one is saved, they receive the Spirit of God to live with our spirit, but again, Jesus' Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
You've missed the point completely. What else is new?
 

God's Truth

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You've missed the point completely. What else is new?

Tell me where I have missed the point.

In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit would come UPON those God chose, to speak for Him.

In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is given to LIVE INSIDE the saved.

A person could have the Holy Spirit living inside them, and then also have the Holy Spirit come upon them for power, as shown by Jesus' baptism for his earthly ministry, as well as the apostles ministry. Remember, the apostles received the Holy Spirit before when Jesus breathed on them.

John 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.


Even though they had the Holy Spirit, Jesus told the apostles to wait until the Holy Spirit comes upon them with power.


Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
 

Rosenritter

New member
No thanks. I will not answer you ...

You are the one that said that it was a dangerous, confused idea that God played roles, so please answer the question. Is it a dangerous confused idea that God has taken the roles of Sacrifice, King, and Mediator?

If you will still not answer the question after being asked three times, then please be quiet, and stay quiet. Don't waste board space saying that you refuse to answer the question.
 

God's Truth

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I just want to also point out that a person in the New Testament times could receive the Holy Spirit to live inside them at the same time the Holy Spirit come upon them with power.

I want to point that out because there are some false teaching about this.
 

Right Divider

Body part
You are the one that said that it was a dangerous, confused idea that God played roles, so please answer the question. Is it a dangerous confused idea that God has taken the roles of Sacrifice, King, and Mediator?

If you will not answer the question after being asked three times, then please be quiet and stay quiet.
I'm not going to fall for your childish attempts to change the subject every time that you're SHOWN to be confused about something.
 

God's Truth

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Right Divider, it is not a debate or even any kind of meaningful discussion when the only thing you post back is to say, "You are wrong".
 
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