The Timelessness of God

[Jerry Shugart]

I think the "them" is somewhat ambiguous, and could refer to any of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's descendants--Moses was indeed a descendant of A, I, and J, so it would still fulfill Deut 10:11.

No, the word "them" is a pronoun and that pronoun refers to something earlier in the text, called the antecedent:

"And the LORD said unto me, Arise, take thy journey before the people, that they may go in and possess the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give unto them" (Deut.10:11).​

The antecedent of the pronoun "them" in this verse can only be the "people" who went into the land.

Besides that, the Scriptures reveal in no uncertain terms that the "them" refers to a particular group of the decendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as witnessed by what is said here:

"Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt: And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey" (Ex.3:16-17).​

According to your ideas the promise which the LORD swore could have been fulfilled in Moses and his descendants. That is impossible!

You must really believe that even though the LORD swore to the fathers that those people would enter the land that He later reconsidered and decided that He would break His promise and destroy those people. How can you have confidence in anything which the LORD says since you think that He might promise something and then break that promise? Why do you refuse to believe what is said here about the LORD?:

"God is not like people. He tells no lies. He is not like humans. He doesn't change his mind. When he says something, he does it. When he makes a promise, he keeps it" (Num.23:19).​

 

[Derf]

No, the word "them" is a pronoun and that pronoun refers to something earlier in the text, called the antecedent:

"And the LORD said unto me, Arise, take thy journey before the people, that they may go in and possess the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give unto them" (Deut.10:11).​

The antecedent of the pronoun "them" in this verse can only be the "people" who went into the land.

Besides that, the Scriptures reveal in no uncertain terms that the "them" refers to a particular group of the decendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as witnessed by what is said here:

"Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt: And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey" (Ex.3:16-17).​

According to your ideas the promise which the LORD swore could have been fulfilled in Moses and his descendants. That is impossible!

You must really believe that even though the LORD swore to the fathers that those people would enter the land that He later reconsidered and decided that He would break His promise and destroy those people. How can you have confidence in anything which the LORD says since you think that He might promise something and then break that promise? Why do you refuse to believe what is said here about the LORD?:

"God is not like people. He tells no lies. He is not like humans. He doesn't change his mind. When he says something, he does it. When he makes a promise, he keeps it" (Num.23:19).​

It's pretty funny that you remain insistent that the people that God was talking to in Ex 3:16-17 are the people He fulfilled the promise to, because those people refused to go in and thus died in the wilderness. If God promised to those people, then He obviously failed to keep His promise. Why do you refuse to believe what is said about the Lord in Num 23:19?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I think the "them" is somewhat ambiguous, and could refer to any of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's descendants--Moses was indeed a descendant of A, I, and J, so it would still fulfill Deut 10:11.

No, the word "them" is a pronoun and that pronoun refers to something earlier in the text, called the antecedent:

"And the LORD said unto me, Arise, take thy journey before the people, that they may go in and possess the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give unto them" (Deut.10:11).​

The antecedent of the pronoun "them" in this verse can only be the "people" who went into the land.

Why did you not address this?

If God promised to those people, then He obviously failed to keep His promise.

I misspoke when I said that the "promise" to enter the land was given to those of Exodus 3:16. It was actually their children who entered the land. Those who were not allowed to enter did not enter because of unbelief.

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes.

You just keep trying to create a false dilemma.

Read 1 Corinthians 13.

Seems to me that love is FAR more important than prophecy, or any other thing.

Verses 8-10 even says "8*Love never fails. But whether*there are*prophecies, they will fail; whether*there are*tongues, they will cease; whether*there is*knowledge, it will vanish away.*9*For we know in part and we prophesy in part.*10*But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away."

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[Jerry Shugart]

Read 1 Corinthians 13.

Seems to me that love is FAR more important than prophecy, or any other thing.

Verses 8-10 even says "8*Love never fails. But whether*there are*prophecies, they will fail; whether*there are*tongues, they will cease; whether*there is*knowledge, it will vanish away.*9*For we know in part and we prophesy in part.*10*But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away."

"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away" (1 Cor.13:8; NIV).​

 

[JudgeRightly]

"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away" (1 Cor.13:8; NIV).​

I quoted from the NKJV. The word used is καταργ?ω (katargeo). See https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g2673, where it has the translation for 1 Corinthians 13:8, and the word used is 'fail.'

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Clete]

I have a question...

Why is it that sound arguments never move any of you off your doctrine?

This timeless existence issue is just the perfect example. You can't even discuss it without contradicting yourselves, which has been pointed out several times by more than one person, both here and a great many times through the years on TOL and yet I have not seen one person moved one bit off the nonsensical doctrine. Most barely acknowledge that the argument has even been made, much less actually attempt to address it in any meaningful way. It's just ignored for the most part.

WHY?

Why hold to a doctrine that the bible does not require and that cannot even be rationally discussed?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have a question...

Why is it that sound arguments never move any of you off your doctrine?

You are the one who runs and hides from sound arguments. Earlier I said:

In fact, we cannot have a definite knowledge of very specific things which will happen in the future, such as knowing who will believe the gospel and who will not. ​

This is your answer:

This is an unsubstantiated claim. You have made no attempt to establish this claim. Even if it is true (which it may well be), the fact that we cannot says nothing about what God can or cannot do.

If my idea is in error then please tell me when some man or woman have a foreknowledge of who would believe and be saved. As far as we know, a person might not even be alive tomorrow so no one on the earth can know whether or not that person will believe in the future.

Further, what you'll never be able to establish is that God's knowledge or lack thereof has anything to do with existing outside of time.

Then please tell me how this happened unless the LORD exists outside of time?:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Notice that the LORD ordained or appoined them to eternal life before they believed. Therefore, the LORD had to foreknow who would believe.

Let us look at this verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

How could the LORD have chosen some to be saved before the foundation of the world unless He had a foreknowledge of exactly who would believe?

You never answered what I said here. Anyone can go on this thread and see that you never answered. Now is the time for you to prove that you really wish to have an honest discussion on this subject. It is time for you to actually attempt to answer what I said.

Thanks!

 

[serpentdove]

It is obvious that God is not constrained by time because He can know things which will happen in the future. Since He is not so constrained then we can know that He exists outside of time...

Your idea comes from Greek pagan thought not the bible. (e.g. God created time, God is outside of time, fate, etc.)

See:

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible. By Bob Enyart

Related:

Is the Future Settled or Open? Dr. Lamerson vs. Enyart

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Your idea comes from Greek pagan thought not the bible. (e.g. God created time, is outside of time, fate, etc.)

See:

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible. By Bob Enyart

Related:

Is the Future Settled or Open? Dr. Lamerson vs. Enyart

Yes... You're still on ignore. I wanted to see if you had more than theology or dogma to add to this "thought provoking" thread.

My reply to you...

Nice use of the word pagan.

#Serpent Dogma
#Sepent with 1,000,000 verses of condemnation and made up theological terms to bolster their condemnation
#Waste of hard drive storage

 

[serpentdove]

Yes... You're still on ignore.

For being on ignore, you sure read a lot of my posts (Eph 4:14).

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

For being on ignore, you sure read a lot of my posts (Eph 4:14).

Only when I am certain you are up to your "tricks".

 

[serpentdove]

I have been trying to get an answer to these points of mine from those who say that God exists in time.

Where do you think he exists? :AMR: Time is real (Re 8:1). Choices are real (Josh 24:15).

See:

Predestination and Will: How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?

Does God Elect Everyone?

 

[serpentdove]

Only when I am certain you are up to your "tricks".

For having me on ignore, you've got the longest leaving act in town (Eph 4:14).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your idea comes from Greek pagan thought not the bible. (e.g. God created time, God is outside of time, fate, etc.)

Since you think that you know all about this then please answer the points which I made.

Thanks!

 

[serpentdove]

I am basing my argument on the idea that those who exist in time are constrained by time.

You thought time had God in a straight jacket? :AMR: Time does not work like Back to the Future or Star Trek (quantum realities).

We cannot take ourselves into the future...

And God cannot see a future that doesn't exist. He's got a plan. He's calling out a people for his namesake. If you'd like to be one of them, repent. If God can see our entire future like a dvd on a screen, then why now fast forward to the end? Why create those people he knows will go to hell? Why not create only the ones who will choose heaven?

...Nor can we have specific knowledge of things which others will do in the future.

And had Abraham not passed his test of faith, God would have chosen another man. People who believe as you do also tend to say that God cannot change (Mal 3:6[1], Jn 1:14), change his mind (Jon 3:10) or learn anything new (Ge 22:12, Lk 2:52). Why can't God change his mind? You can change your mind. Why can't God change his mind? Because you don't trust him? :Shimei: God can be more than us; but, he cannot be less.

If you don't believe that God can change his mind, then why pray?

[1] God is committed to righteousness.

See:

Intercession

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You thought time had God in a straight jacket?

I said that it is men who are in a straight jacket because they are constrained by time.

I said that we cannot even know if someone will be alive tomorrow, much less know if that person will believe in the future.

However, the LORD is not constrained by time because He knows who in the future will believe and who will not:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Notice that the LORD ordained or appointed them to eternal life before they believed. Therefore, the LORD had to foreknow who would believe.

Let us look at this verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

How could the LORD have chosen some to be saved before the foundation of the world unless He had a foreknowledge of exactly who would believe?

 

[Clete]

You are the one who runs and hides from sound arguments. Earlier I said:

In fact, we cannot have a definite knowledge of very specific things which will happen in the future, such as knowing who will believe the gospel and who will not. ​

This is your answer:



If my idea is in error then please tell me when some man or woman have a foreknowledge of who would believe and be saved. As far as we know, a person might not even be alive tomorrow so no one on the earth can know whether or not that person will believe in the future.



Then please tell me how this happened unless the LORD exists outside of time?:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Notice that the LORD ordained or appoined them to eternal life before they believed. Therefore, the LORD had to foreknow who would believe.

Let us look at this verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

How could the LORD have chosen some to be saved before the foundation of the world unless He had a foreknowledge of exactly who would believe?

You never answered what I said here. Anyone can go on this thread and see that you never answered. Now is the time for you to prove that you really wish to have an honest discussion on this subject. It is time for you to actually attempt to answer what I said.

Thanks!

I've stopped even reading your posts! They are a waste of time. I've fully responded to your nonsense. I'm not going to help you find it because I don't care. It won't move you an inch no matter what I said or didn't say. The effect on you is EXACTLY the same whether I respond or don't. As it seems is true of every Calvinistic person alive.

 

[serpentdove]

As mere creatures we are restricted from traveling into the future so in that sense we are constrained by time.

Again, if God knows our entire life in advance why not cause it to occur in minutes rather than years like The Inner Light Star Trek: The Next Generation episode?

Did God know that Susan Smith would become a monster who drowned her two kids and let David Smith marry her anyway? How cruel.

The disciples wanted to know if Elijah would come before the return of the Messiah (Mt 17:10). Jesus said that he would come (v 17:11) and he had come (v 17:12). John the Baptist would have been the Elijah had the Jews repented.

Love is more important that prophecy. Had Pharaoh repented, that would have been a good thing. Had Judas repented, that would have been a good thing.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I've fully responded to your nonsense.

Of course you know that is not true!

On post #366, page 25 of this thread you said:

I am not one of the people who have all day long to sit here and respond to TOL posts. If I haven't responded to you, it it's almost certainly because I work for a living and had to put it off. There's no need to repost the same post four times. I won't respond any faster. If I decide to put you back on my ignore list, I'll let you know. Otherwise, be patient and I'll get to your posts when time allows.

Anyone can go back to your post which I mentioned and see that you have never responded to what I said. And I don't expect that you will ever respond to what I said. After all, what could you possibly say that could defend your indefensible ideas?

By the way, I am not a Calvinist and I have never been a Calvinist.