ECT The thing MAD can't grasp about the plot of the NT

Lazy afternoon

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What denomination is he affiliated with?

That information is only important for the carnal of mind, who will try to defame him someway.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
 

Interplanner

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i

Israel knew for 700 years that the promises to David were to be found fulfilled in Christ. This is why Paul quotes that Isaiah passage in the sample sermon in Acts 13. Some of them (Israel) thought that's who had come, until he started saying things like 'the reign of God is here' or 'it is not the kind found all through this world.' Several times he was called the Son of David, but the question is the exact meaning. He did not mean what Judaism meant.

This is the point of Jn 12:34 which I have drawn attention to 100x, and there are not thousands of members here, so I wonder about your attention span. Israel thought a Messiah was going to rule forever--that they knew this out of the law, but Christ said he was the light that they needed to be in now, or they would walk in darkness.

It seems that you are familiar with this issue, but surprised at what side you are supposed to end up on. Because 2P2P would have "Christians" on the side of Judaism, then and now.

We as believers are supposed to know that when the apostles preached that Jesus was the Christ, it was subversive to Judaism, and somewhat to Rome. But most importantly to Judaism because they were on their mission of the law.
 

Danoh

New member
...

Steko and all:
you must not have read Rom 1 that the son of David was also declared son of God by the resurrection event.

You must not have read Acts 1 that asking about a restored Israel was an idiotic question never raised again in Acts and twice said to be fulfilled in the resurrection and the believers created by it

You must not have read Acts 13's sermon that says that the promises to David were actually given to the Servant, known to be the case as far back as the quote from Isaiah that is used to prove that.

YOU ARE 2700 YEARS LATE!!!

Understood all that perfectly.

Disagree with it; though.

Romans 1 merely asserts Paul preaches the same Jesus who was prophesied; who's resurrection proved He was He Who was prophesied.

Paul preached Him "according to the revelation od the Mystery" though, Rom. 16:25, that he also made known according to his God given "prophetic writings" v. 26.
 

Interplanner

New member
Understood all that perfectly.

Disagree with it; though.

Romans 1 merely asserts Paul preaches the same Jesus who was prophesied; who's resurrection proved He was He Who was prophesied.

Paul preached Him "according to the revelation od the Mystery" though, Rom. 16:25, that he also made known according to his God given "prophetic writings" v. 26.


Well, the Son of David was prophesied, and Christ was said to be that. The D'ist "experts" on the Bible say we need them to explain to us that there's two parts to Son of David. Is that what the NT sounds like? Nope.
 

Interplanner

New member
Understood all that perfectly.

Disagree with it; though.

Romans 1 merely asserts Paul preaches the same Jesus who was prophesied; who's resurrection proved He was He Who was prophesied.

Paul preached Him "according to the revelation od the Mystery" though, Rom. 16:25, that he also made known according to his God given "prophetic writings" v. 26.


btw, it sounds like you are saying the prophetic writings were Paul's. The passage actually says that God made it known out from the midst of them -- it was there the whole time.

I don't know why you would say Paul preached this (this way) "though" as though there was some problem about that. It was planned all along. God was glorifying the Son by making all those lights aim at Him.
 

Danoh

New member
btw, it sounds like you are saying the prophetic writings were Paul's. The passage actually says that God made it known out from the midst of them -- it was there the whole time.

I don't know why you would say Paul preached this (this way) "though" as though there was some problem about that. It was planned all along. God was glorifying the Son by making all those lights aim at Him.

What the Apostle Paul was making known, he was doing so through his preaching and writings as God's prophet, or spokesman on same...

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

That last passage is in the sense of how Paul often makes use of those kinds of passages.

Not as an assertion that they had prophesied his ministry among the Gentiles, rather in his application of their same principle BUT within his distinct, unique, unprophesied ministry among the Gentiles.

Same principle - Israel's Propheised rise to its' Prophesied glory and Prophesied subsequent outreach among the Gentiles - but a different application; the Apostle Paul's Unprophesied ministry among the Gentiles; with Israel's fall.

He OFTEN does that kind of a thing - same principle; different application.

It is a principle unique to the Apostle of the Gentiles that has thrown many off.

The RCC, the Reformed and its many offshoots, Acts 2 and Acts 28 Dispys; you name it...

All but one - the actually consistent Acts 9 Dispy...

Aka Mid-Acts...

As for your second point...

Same Prophesied Jesus, but an aspect of which Paul uniquely preached among the Gentiles - according to that which was NOT Prophesied.
 

Interplanner

New member
What the Apostle Paul was making known, he was doing so through his preaching and writings as God's prophet, or spokesman on same...

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

That last passage is in the sense of how Paul often makes use of those kinds of passages.

Not as an assertion that they had prophesied his ministry among the Gentiles, rather in his application of their same principle BUT within his distinct, unique, unprophesied ministry among the Gentiles.

Same principle - Israel's Propheised rise to its' Prophesied glory and Prophesied subsequent outreach among the Gentiles - but a different application; the Apostle Paul's Unprophesied ministry among the Gentiles; with Israel's fall.

He OFTEN does that kind of a thing - same principle; different application.

It is a principle unique to the Apostle of the Gentiles that has thrown many off.

The RCC, the Reformed and its many offshoots, Acts 2 and Acts 28 Dispys; you name it...

All but one - the actually consistent Acts 9 Dispy...

Aka Mid-Acts...

As for your second point...

Same Prophesied Jesus, but an aspect of which Paul uniquely preached among the Gentiles - according to that which was NOT Prophesied.



Do you really want to claim responsibility for the last paragraph? Go right ahead.

Where is GM when we need him to complain about complication?

Are you saying that Paul's ministry to the Gentiles was not "prophesied" but ministry to the Gentiles was? That's fine. But you aren't very clear about what matters.

Application? Of what? If you have three examples of this, it might help but it's just so much D'ist theory with all its tortured exceptions to me.

The change God made in redemptive history is not in Act 9 but in Christ. As far as when he was teaching it, it was from the beginning of his ministry and the veil or obstacles of Judaism kept blocking things until at least the 'seminar.'
 

Right Divider

Body part
You must not have read Acts 1 that asking about a restored Israel was an idiotic question never raised again in Acts and twice said to be fulfilled in the resurrection and the believers created by it
Please demonstrate this rash assumption by actually supporting it WITH SCRIPTURE!

Jesus did NOT tell them that was "an idiotic" question. Jesus did NOT, even in the slightest, show them that they misunderstood. Jesus did NOT, in any way, "correct" their understanding.

By simply telling them that is was not for them to know "the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power", He is actually confirming their understanding.

Using your fallacious argument from silence, you continue to show that your IPism is based on your own ignorance and not scripture.

It always amazes me how dumb people try to make the 12 apostles. As if they could not learn from Jesus what He was teaching them for FORTY DAYS!

After the 40 DAY training course, their FIRST question documented in scripture was about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel. My bet is that Jesus taught them VERY well and that they understood EXACTLY what He meant!
 

Danoh

New member
Please demonstrate this rash assumption by actually supporting it WITH SCRIPTURE!

Jesus did NOT tell them that was "an idiotic" question. Jesus did NOT, even in the slightest, show them that they misunderstood. Jesus did NOT, in any way, "correct" their understanding.

By simply telling them that is was not for them to know "the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power", He is actually confirming their understanding.

Using your fallacious argument from silence, you continue to show that your IPism is based on your own ignorance and not scripture.

It always amazes me how dumb people try to make the 12 apostles. As if they could not learn from Jesus what He was teaching them for FORTY DAYS!

After the 40 DAY training course, their FIRST question documented in scripture was about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel. My bet is that Jesus taught them VERY well and that they understood EXACTLY what He meant!

That was low. Even for Interplanner.

Very low.

Actually; a blasphemy.

Matthew 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

With the coming of the Spirit's continuance of the Lord's ministry TO ISRAEL FIRST; the Spirit speaking through Peter is still preaching ISRAEL'S Prophesied "restitution of all things."

Likewise, in Peter's 2nd Epistle, decades later, and way after Paul first came on the scene.

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Things pertaining to what?

1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Said restoration or restitution of all things being when?

1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Said restoration or restitution of all things being when?

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Concerning who?

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Save yourselves from this untoward generation...untoward Israel as one untoward generation in all its generations...save yourselves from that when?

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

When?

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

What is the Spirit still asserting through Peter decades later?

2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

THERE is "the history" of the thing.

Plain and simple.

Not in endless books "about."

Rather in...

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

What books?

Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
 

SaulToPaul

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Yep, I once heard a radio "preacher" saying something very similar to IP. He said something to the effect, "The primary story of the Bible is one of redemption". That is a very humanistic view. The primary story of the Bible is God's glory!

I agree, it is his plan for the entire creation to be filled with his glory.
Redemption is the means to the end.
 

Interplanner

New member
I agree, it is his plan for the entire creation to be filled with his glory.
Redemption is the means to the end.


It is not humanistic in any familiar sense, because God provides righteousness to cover their sins. To be accused of humanism: 1, there wouldn't be a God; 2, there wouldn't be sin; 3, there wouldn't be a solution provided by a God; 4--need I add more?

God is glorified by all his works. There are the works of the Father, Son and the Spirit and they all glorify him, but the Spirit doesn't glorify himself. The Son may glorify himself because it also glorifies the Father, Jn 16.

God delights to save the lost sheep out of the hundred. That is not sheepistic. It is compassion.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Please demonstrate this rash assumption by actually supporting it WITH SCRIPTURE!

Jesus did NOT tell them that was "an idiotic" question. Jesus did NOT, even in the slightest, show them that they misunderstood. Jesus did NOT, in any way, "correct" their understanding.

By simply telling them that is was not for them to know "the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power", He is actually confirming their understanding.

Using your fallacious argument from silence, you continue to show that your IPism is based on your own ignorance and not scripture.

It always amazes me how dumb people try to make the 12 apostles. As if they could not learn from Jesus what He was teaching them for FORTY DAYS!

After the 40 DAY training course, their FIRST question documented in scripture was about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel. My bet is that Jesus taught them VERY well and that they understood EXACTLY what He meant!

:thumb:

Only one of the things Interplanner can't grasp about the plot of the NT!
 

Danoh

New member
:thumb:

Only one of the things Interplanner can't grasp about the plot of the NT!

What's amusing is that the brother writes screenplays. A craft I am also familiar with.

Apparantly, someone stole his story boards and or day to day shooting schedule :chuckle:

Where a filmmaker ends up with a film with all sorts of key elements either out of place, or simply missing within his resulting finished film...
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
What's amusing is that the brother writes screenplays. A craft I am also familiar with.

Apparantly, someone stole his story boards and or day to day shooting schedule :chuckle:

Where a filmmaker ends up with a film with all sorts of key elements either out of place, or simply missing within his resulting finished film...

Simply amazing!

How ironic!
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Hall of Fame
What's amusing is that the brother writes screenplays. A craft I am also familiar with.

Apparantly, someone stole his story boards and or day to day shooting schedule :chuckle:

Where a filmmaker ends up with a film with all sorts of key elements either out of place, or simply missing within his resulting finished film...

Then, perhaps you ought to write a screenplay centering on a "turncoat" type of fellow who wages war on his fellow believers and helps to destroy their influence in the public arena? You could create it with an "Autobiographical" leaning.
 

Danoh

New member
Then, perhaps you ought to write a screenplay centering on a "turncoat" type of fellow who wages war on his fellow believers and helps to destroy their influence in the public arena? You could create it with an "Autobiographical" leaning.

You have been reading just that - in my posts to you and yours - YOUR Legalist Mad club's biography...

How several Mads on TOL have been destroying all hope of their potentially positive influence on TOLers, by their words "about" grace.

A "grace" seasoned with the bitter salt - of vile.

You preach a grace to one and all that has no grace in it but for those a part of your same hypocrisy...

Though not the only one; you are one of the leading protagonists in the story.

You haven't an ounce of grace toward anyone who's view you differ with.

You hound them in post after post.

And often in multiple posts, as if you have just one more shot of venom, still left in you...followed by one more, and one more, and...

You glory in strife.

If you had any grace in you, you would quit this nonsense of yours against LA about something said to you who knows how long ago...

Where in this "diss" grace of yours is "forgiving one another even as God fogave you for Christ's sake..."

You will never win others over with such hypocrisy.

Yours is not the grace of God in his Son.

Unmerited grace?

Your kind consistently display you hold to a deepseated, legalistic, conditional, performance based acceptance towards others.

You carry on like that; egging one another on in it...

The very attitude that turned against the Lord in those books you are so fond of ignorantly pointing out were "for the lost sheep of Israel..."

You're darn skippy I have turned from you and yours.

Yours is NOT the Grace Mad that won me over - yours wins no one over - other than one more Legalist Mad to add to your Elitist Mad Cult.

Fade to black...

Well, I wish your hypocrisy would fade to black...

But that would take what you appear no longer capable of - of walking by faith in the grace you assert you proclaim.
 

Interplanner

New member
:thumb:

Only one of the things Interplanner can't grasp about the plot of the NT!



It's not that they were dumb. it is that they were raised in Judaism which was schooled to think there was supposed to be another episode for Israel. Gal 3:17. Judaism had switched Promise and Law against the Gospel.

The question is answered in Acts, which is why you look so uninformed with your comments. It is answered in the sermons on the failure of Israel (8) on the destiny of Israel (13) where the mission to the nations is shown to have eclipsed it. It is shown in the answers in the hearing in 26 where the resurrection (Christs again like 13) is what fulfills Israel.

So: "How slow to believe and hard of heart you are!"

There are no bets on the NT because that would be arguing from 'silence' which you think I'm doing and think is there because you won't grapple with 8, 13, 15, 26.
 
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