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1Tim 2:4 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
So God wants all men to be saved, but only gives saving faith to some?
ECT The Righteousness Which is of God
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
So God wants all men to be saved, but only gives saving faith to some?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you think that someone who is already blind can be blinded?
You prove over and over that you are able to trick your mind into believing anything, no matter how ridiculous.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course the meaning of "regeneration" is "born again" and a person is not "born again" in order to enable them to believe the gospel.
Your idea mirrors the teaching of the Calvinists who teach that being "born again" (regeneration) precedes "faith." However, that idea is shown to be in error by what peter wrote here:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
Peter reveals that being "born again" (regeneration) happens as a result of faith. That completely contradicts your idea that being "born again"(regeneration) precedes faith.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Jerry,
The grammar, even in English (I know Greek grammar) does not support what you are saying. In fact, the interesting thing about the present continuous tense is that it is the opposite of aorist (a one time event). He's not referring back, but just saying that the being born again is going and the person believes.
The thing is not resolved here, though. It is at eph 2:8, 9 with its antecedents. Faith is the reference for the gift of God, too. as well as grace.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is ridiculous!
Do you not know what the word "by" means?:
"Being born again...by the word of God..."(1 Pet.1:23).
Besides that, James say the same thing:
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).
A Person is "born again" (regenerated) as a result of faith. That contradicts the idea that a person is "born again" before believing which is taught by the Calvinists.
Interplanner
Well-known member
"By" is not a time indicator.
Timing is not the vital content of any of these passages. Only the cause is. God causes the faith; the faith itself is the reference when Eph 2:9 says 'that' is the gift of God. Otherwise Paul just forgot what he said in the previous sentence. I don't think so.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The word "by" in the verse reveals how a person is regenerated. And they are regenerated by the gospel:
"Being born again...by the word of God..." (1 Pet.1:23).
James say the same thing:
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).
It is the Word which brings life, as witnessed by what the Lord Jesus said here:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
The same can be said of the gospel we preach because it too is spirit because it comes in the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5). And belief in that gospel brings salvation to all who believe:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).
When a person believes the gospel he is "born again" (regenerated) and therefore saved.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Do you think you have answered the grammar of Eph 2:9 in which faith itself is also a gift?
Don't leave justification out of 'saved.' Paul nearly always meant that first. The being born from above is a 2nd effect of that.
beloved57
Well-known member
jerry
Thats a lie, no scripture says that. Jesus says that he that is of God, heareth Gods words Jn 8:47
He that is of God hears God's words: you therefore hear them not, because you are not of God.
Thats born of God, thats the requirement to even hear the Gospel !
Secondly, a Lost person cant believe the Gospel, because its being hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4
Thirdly, if a person isnt born again of the Spirit, theyre in the flesh still, which the promise concerning them in the flesh is that they cant please God Rom 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Only the unregenerate without the Spirit are in the flesh !
Those who have the Spirit are not in the flesh Rom 8:9
But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Thats a lie, no scripture says that. Jesus says that he that is of God, heareth Gods words Jn 8:47
He that is of God hears God's words: you therefore hear them not, because you are not of God.
Thats born of God, thats the requirement to even hear the Gospel !
Secondly, a Lost person cant believe the Gospel, because its being hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4
Thirdly, if a person isnt born again of the Spirit, theyre in the flesh still, which the promise concerning them in the flesh is that they cant please God Rom 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Only the unregenerate without the Spirit are in the flesh !
Those who have the Spirit are not in the flesh Rom 8:9
But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The "gift" is contrasted with "works" in these verses:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:9-10).
This is obviously referring to salvation by grace (a gift) and Paul makes it plain that "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive. Therefore, an examination of the context of Ephesians 2:9 reveals that it is salvation which is the gift.
The Calvinists teach that according to the "logical" order of salvation being "born again" (regeneration) precedes "faith," as witnessed by the following words of R.C. Sproul (a well know Calvinistic Author):
"When speaking of the order of salvation (ordo salutis), Reformed theology always and everywhere insists that regeneration precedes faith. Regeneration precedes faith because it is a necessary condition for faith...when Reformed theology says regeneration precedes faith, it is speaking in terms of logical priority, not temporal priority. We cannot exercise saving faith until we have been regenerated, so we say that faith is dependent on regeneration, not regeneration on faith" [emphasis added] (Sproul, What is Reformed Theology?, 195).
The idea that a person is "born again" (regenerated) prior to faith is contradicted by what Peter says here:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
Peter reveals that being "born again" (regeneration) happens as a result of faith. That completely contradicts the Calvinists' idea that being "born again"(regeneration) precedes faith. James also says the same thing:
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).
Interplanner
Well-known member
You are trying to find a 'master sequence' again when the passages are about cause and effect. No passage clearly goes either way; it is irrelevant. STop fighting Calvinism's hold on 0.00001% of the population.
and you are not answering about the antecedent of 'that' in 8 when it refers back to faith.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are so spiritually blind that you are unable to even understand the verses which you cite:
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).
Here we read that the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers. And the purpose as to why he blinds them is "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel." That means that those who are perishing did indeed at one time have the ability to see the light of the gospel.
After all, it is impossible to blind the minds of anyone to the truth of the gospel unless they have the ability in the first place to see the light of the gospel. The verb form of the word "blind" means to "make blind." It is impossible to "make blind" someone who is already blind.
The Calvinists must believe that the god of this age blinds those who are already blind! That idea is ridiculous.
Here the Lord Jesus illustrates that the word of God works in concert with the Spirit and that union results in life:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
We can understand that the gospel also works in concert with the Holy Spirit:
"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance" (1 Thess.1:5).
Even though Paul makes it plain that the gospel comes in much power and in the Holy Spirit the Calvinists say that it is powerless to save anyone unless a person is first "born again."
The Calvinists teach that a person is "born again" or "regenerated" prior to "faith" despite the fact that both Peter and James make it plain that being "born again" happens as a result of faith:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).
Interplanner
Well-known member
Jerry wrote:
That means that those who are perishing did indeed at one time have the ability to see the light of the gospel.
You overthink Jerry. Stick with the plain meaning.
That means that those who are perishing did indeed at one time have the ability to see the light of the gospel.
You overthink Jerry. Stick with the plain meaning.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The passages which I quoted clearly show a "cause and effect" relationship between being "born again" (regeneration) and "faith" and that is why you just run and hide from those verses.
Interplanner
Well-known member
As for the last paragraph, I didn't realize Christian theology came down to the splitting of tenths of seconds.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is the plain meaning of what is said in the passage I quoted. You are blind to the truth because you put what some men say about the Scriptures above what the Scriptures actually say. If I am wrong about anything which I said then point out exactly what I said that is in error.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is the Calvinists who speak of the "logical order" of salvation in contrast to the "temporal." Perhaps that concept is above your understanding?
Interplanner
Well-known member
It says they were blind without saying anything about what they had before or after. that's what you over do. There are absolutely no clues about other times.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In the following passage we read that the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers. And the purpose as to why he blinds them is "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel." That means that those who are perishing did indeed at one time have the ability to see the light of the gospel.
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).
So we can understand that before their minds were blinded they had the ability to see the light of the gospel. That is what they had before.
Or perhaps you want to argue that the god of this age was able to blind those who were already blind?
Interplanner
Well-known member
That means that those who are perishing did indeed at one time have the ability to see the light of the gospel.
No thanks to your conclusion ability Jerry. I won't have you work on my car or HVAC system, either.
No thanks to your conclusion ability Jerry. I won't have you work on my car or HVAC system, either.