The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[beloved57]

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

The Elect. Thats who received Him and Believed on His Name. Those that had been predestinated to the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ. eph 1:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

So those have a right to become [ manifested] as Children of God !

 

[godrulz]

Corporate, conditional, in Christ election is the key, not individual, unconditional, apart from Christ.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

This message is deleted and closed.

 

[beloved57]

blackbird:

So all our behavior is a result of God calling the shots?

Yes. God has made some of us as vessels of wrath to be fitted for destruction Rom 9:20-22

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God most certainly did not Love these creatures with an everlasting Love through Jesus Christ, and most certainly He did not send His Beloved Son into the World to save them from their sins.

 

[patricius79]

1 Jn 2:2, 1 Tim 2:4,6, Rom 11:32

 

[beloved57]

Jesus died for those it was promised that He shall save from their sins Matt 1:21​

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21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.[which means by the way, those he does not save from their sins were not his people]​

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Thats the promise, all else is speculation and doctrines of men and devils.​

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Lk 19:10​

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10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.[which means those He came to seek and to save are not lost but found]​

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He came to do His Fathers will, that all the Father hath given Him, He should loose nothing Jn 6:39​

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39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given [perfect tense] me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.​

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The word for will here is the greek word:​

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thelēma:​

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what one wishes or has determined shall be done​

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a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ​

b) of what God wishes to be done by us​

1) commands, precepts​

2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure​

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All that He hath given me indicates all who has been chosen by the Father, and has been given [ once and for all in the past time with effects into the present] by the Father to the Son for salvation and to give eternal life Jn 10:26-30​

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26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.​

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27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:​

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28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

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29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.​

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30I and my Father are one.​

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Now in light of the afore mentioned scriptures, how do we or should understand 1 Tim 2:4​

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4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​

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Who is it that desires this ? Is it not the Father of Jesus Christ who sent Him to do His will ?​

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Are the same people in view in 1 Tim 2:4 as is in Jn 6:39 ?​

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Where it is said of Jesus, that He should not loose nothing !!​

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What about those in 2 Pet 3 :9​

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9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

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Are the ones here, whom God is not willing that any should perish, the same as the ones in Jn 6:39 ?​

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If so, then the conclusion is , it is The Fathers will for the Son to save all and bring all to repentance as indicated, and if the Son does not, and looses some, that they perish, then He has not done His Fathers will. If any do perish that Christ is to save, according to His Fathers will [Jn 6:39] then Christ has failed in executing His Fathers will, because some has perished, whom His Father was not willing to perish [ 2 Pet 3:9], hence, Christ was a disappointment and not a complete Saviour.​

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He may have sought that was lost Lk 19:10, but He did not save all that was lost.​

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This is the dilemma we have if we say that Christ died for all men without exception to save them, but yet all men without exception are not saved, and some of them perish in their sins.​

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[patricius79]

1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

 

[beloved57]

1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

If they are not saved, Its Jesus fault, He is suppose to save all the Father wants saved.

 

[patricius79]

1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

Acts 17:30

 

[beloved57]

1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

Acts 17:30

Thats Jesus Christ responsibility ! Either He succeeded or He failed.

 

[beloved57]

double post !

 

[Gurucam]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

And what about 'the dead'? The dead refers to those who are dead to their spirit or heart. They are children of the flesh.

Did Jesus die for 'the dead' when, quite to the opposite, He showed His disdain for them when He said, 'let the dead bury their dead'?

And what about Jesus' revelation (through Paul): " 'children of God' are led by the Spirit". This suggest that it is not routine for everyone to be led by Spirit nor will every one be led by the Spirit.

Therefore some will not be children of God. Since there are only children of God and children of the flesh, those are not led by the Spirit remain children of the flesh.

Did Jesus die for those who are not led by the Spirit?

Did Jesus die for children of the flesh who do not pick up the offer of the Spirit? Fact is God sent the Spirit of His Son into the hearts of those under the law so that they might become adopted children of God (re. Galatians: 4 verses: 5 to 7).

Can you say that Jesus died for these children of the flesh who choose to remain under the law and not take up this offer of the Spirit which God made to them?

Seems that Jesus died for the few, the chosen few. The chosen few seem to be those who picked up the offer of Jesus' Spirit which God sent into their hearts i.e. those who discern precisely what the Spirit has in mind for them from within their own heart and obey same unconditionally.

Jesus confirmed that only His disciples were given by God to know Truth.

Do you think that Jesus died for those who were not given by God to know Truth?

'The dead' are those who are 'dead to their hearts or spirit'. They are not given by God to know the Truth. That is they cannot search their hearts to know the Spirit of Truth through which they will know truth.

Do you think that Jesus died for those who could not search their hearts to know Truth from the Spirit? They are the dead, and Jesus showed disdain for them when He said, 'let the dead bury their dead'?

More precisely it seems that Jesus died at the hands of and through the efforts of, these people who were not given by God to know Truth.

Jesus is Truth and certainly they were not given to know Jesus. They certainly did not recognize or know Jesus (or Truth) they persecuted and crucified him.

 

[beloved57]

2 Pet 3:9 has been abused !

Many have used the scripture in 2 Pet 3:9 as a proof text that God wants all men without exception to come to repentance. That that interpretation is pure human reasoning and speculation is seen in many ways throughout scripture, but here is one of those ways.

Its a fact, that there are some living upon the earth today Whom God is reserving to be punished : They are the unjust !

Remember, in Rev 22 it reads let the unjust be unjust still

Rev 22:11

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

2 Pet 2:9

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The unjust, are those whom Christ blood did not Justify, hence, they are being reserved by the power of God to be punished for their sins.

Now, what sense would it make, and how much of a contradiction it would be for God to be waiting and not willing for these who He is reserving to be punished, to be waiting for and desiring their repentance.

 

[godrulz]

Take the verse at face value in context and in light of other verses. TULIP is a deductive paradigm/determinism foisted on texts leading to distortion. The root problem is a wrong view of God's sovereignty and man's free will (Lk. 7:30; I Tim. 2:4; Jn. 3:16; Matthew 23:37; 2 Peter 3:9).

 

[beloved57]

Take the verse at face value in context and in light of other verses. TULIP is a deductive paradigm/determinism foisted on texts leading to distortion. The root problem is a wrong view of God's sovereignty and man's free will (Lk. 7:30; I Tim. 2:4; Jn. 3:16; Matthew 23:37; 2 Peter 3:9).

The scripture in rev 22:11 " he that is unjust let him be unjust still" is a imperative in the greek. Thats God decreed will, they will never be Justified. They do not have a chance of repentance unto Life.

They are being reserved by Gods power to be punished in that Great Day of wrath..

 

[ThePresbyteers]

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[beloved57]

The Presby:

Actually, The Father gave the Elects to Jesus.

When ?

 

[ThePresbyteers]

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[patricius79]

1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

 

[beloved57]

presby:

Before the Elects are born. Right?

Before the world began. Jesus said that The Father Loved them as He Loved Him, and when was that ? Jn 17:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.