The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[godrulz]

Modal logic correctly distinguishes actual, certain, possible, probable, necessary, etc. God knew of the possibility and probability of the Fall, but His great grief after the Fall shows that He did not expect it given the perfect and reasonable conditions given to innocent men. The Fall was possible, not necessary/inevitable. It was certainly likely. God knows reality as it is. Other verses also show God expecting good things from Israel, then being disappointed when they do bad things.

The future is inherently partially open vs closed, by God's sovereign choice.

 

[Nang]

So what's to stop God doing this for everyone then?

It is necessary that God reveal His holy justice and make His power known amongst men. See Romans 9:17-18

What marks you or any of the other 'elect' so special as to warrant sparing from eternal misery while your neighbour resides in there for ever?

There is nothing special about the chosen people of God, other than they have found favor with God. (e.g. Genesis 6:8) There are no scriptural reasons revealing why God choses some and judges others (Noah and his family found grace, while the rest of the human population perished in the flood); that decision resides within His sovereignty and good purposes, alone.

You talk about 'simple truths' as if 'rejection' equates to 'volitional outright rebellion' since birth or some such. Without this 'gift' you'd be just as 'unregenerate' as anyone else even though according to Nang she's no more deserving 'than those predestined to hell'. Furthermore she has no concrete answer as to the fates of the unborn and infants under such a doctrine either. lain:

The fate of infants is determined according to divine Unconditional Election, just like the fate of adults. Babies are in need of God's grace, too, and those chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world, will receive His saving mercies and be saved in Jesus Christ.

What you are arguing for, is Universalism. You are saying that God is not good unless He tries to save all persons and treats all persons equally. This is part of the western (democratic) mindset, that has little knowledge of the makeup of sovereign rulers . . . who are not obligated to show any favors to their subjects, at all.

Earthly sovereigns are all sinners and most are tyrants, but Sovereign God is holy, loving, and good.

When investigating the bible's teachings about Unconditional Election, one must exercise faith in the goodness and wisdom of God. One must be willing to accept that God has the sovereign power and right to show favor and grace, to whom He wills (Romans 9:15-16). And one must, by faith, trust that God has chosen His people wisely and for good purposes.

Accepting Divine Election as truth is a matter of faith, which of course, comes only by the grace of God to begin with. So it is no surprise that some sinners testify to God's electing grace in faith, and most others reject the doctrine. For those others have not been gifted with the faith necessary to comprehend or believe the promises of God.

Nang

 

[Nang]

The future is inherently partially open vs closed, by God's sovereign choice.

Illogical.

 

[Nang]

If I build a swimming pool for the good of the family and my son falls in: would it be a gift if then I threw him a life raft? I would love to hear your Biblical argument using "a myriad verses" that God knew Adam would fall.

God decreed that Adam would fall, and decreed that God the Son would be the "Lamb of God," before the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8; I Peter 1:20)

"If anyone has an ear, let him hear." Revelation 13:9

 

[godrulz]

Illogical.

Fatalism, determinism, fixed future is illogical. It is common sense and biblical that the potential future is becoming the fixed past through the actual present (presentism vs eternalism; A vs B theory of time).

It is illogical to you because you are a determinist and reject self-evident free will. It is logical to thinking people who are not biased by a false system.

 

[godrulz]

God decreed that Adam would fall, and decreed that God the Son would be the "Lamb of God," before the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8; I Peter 1:20)

"If anyone has an ear, let him hear." Revelation 13:9

God did not decree the Fall. This is contrary to His intentions, purposes, will, desires. This is why He was grieved to the core when it happened. Mormons say that it was decreed and necessary. You are in bad company.

The plan of redemption was a contingency that was implemented after vs before the Fall. It was decreed from eternity past, but only implemented in Gen. 3 (and actualized in the first century). The potential plan became certain when the Fall was actual, not before. Decretal views are philosophical, Calvinistic, not biblical (Calvinists also differ on the order of decrees...pure speculation since it is not biblical).

 

[Nang]

God did not decree the Fall. This is contrary to His intentions, purposes, will, desires.

All of God's intentions, purposes, will, and desires are being achieved despite the fall of Adam.

The plan of redemption was a contingency that was implemented after vs before the Fall. It was decreed from eternity past, but only implemented in Gen. 3

Illogical.

 

[godrulz]

All of God's intentions, purposes, will, and desires are being achieved despite the fall of Adam.






Illogical.

There is a big difference between desiring, causing, intending evil or the Fall and responding to it with a perfect plan of redemption, restoration, mitigation, etc.

Your hang up to make everything God's will leads to impugnment of His character and ways.

As a paramedic or a patient, I do not cause illness and injury in order to bring good out of it. I respond to the contingency that was not intentional, meritorious, desired and mitigate it to bring good out of bad. Causing or desiring bad to show off my skills is not loving, wise, good, right.

 

[flintstoned]

God decreed that Adam would fall, and decreed that God the Son would be the "Lamb of God," before the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8; I Peter 1:20)

"If anyone has an ear, let him hear." Revelation 13:9

So why then did god feel the need to kill off the world's population(except for Noah and his family)? What purpose did THAT serve?

 

[steko]

Not if one is of the Lost Sheep of Israel. Paul declares that God hath rasied up unto Israel a Saviour acts 13:

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

He as Saviour giveth Israel repentace and forgiveness of sins

Acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel means His Chosen People, Jew or Gentile.

Nope. Israel always means bloodline Israel and Gentile always means the rest of the people in the world.

The elect in Mt.24 means bloodline, believing Israel, not the Jew/gentile church.

 

[godrulz]

So why then did god feel the need to kill off the world's population(except for Noah and his family)? What purpose did THAT serve?

Justice and the prevention of a cancer that would have destroyed God's people and humanity.

If a serial killer is shooting up a mall, it would be unloving and unwise for the police not to terminate him.

 

[Nang]

There is a big difference between desiring, causing, intending evil or the Fall and responding to it with a perfect plan of redemption, restoration, mitigation, etc.

What I say!

God did not "respond" to the fall with a plan of redemption, but rather decreed the fall to display and demonstrate the redemptive grace and such qualities found only in the Son of God; Jesus Christ.

As a paramedic or a patient, I do not cause illness and injury in order to bring good out of it. I respond to the contingency that was not intentional, meritorious, desired and mitigate it to bring good out of bad. Causing or desiring bad to show off my skills is not loving, wise, good, right.

Poor analogy, in that you are not the creator of any you deal with.

The "victims" whom you treat, are not the original works of your hands, and so your "works of mercy" cannot possibly or legitimately be compared to those of ALMIGHTY GOD!

Nang

 

[Nick M]

Get what? That people have doubts?

There are no doubts, only rebellion.

 

[godrulz]

What I say!

God did not "respond" to the fall with a plan of redemption, but rather decreed the fall to display and demonstrate the redemptive grace and such qualities found only in the Son of God; Jesus Christ.





Poor analogy, in that you are not the creator of any you deal with.

The "victims" whom you treat, are not the original works of your hands, and so your "works of mercy" cannot possibly or legitimately be compared to those of ALMIGHTY GOD!

Nang

God does not decree sin, evil, suffering. That would be Satan, not God. It is contrary to God's nature to do this. If he decreed it, why was he so grieved by it and why did it cost the cross? God is not the author of sin, sickness, suffering, evil, destruction, etc. The consequences are the result of man's free will. Likewise, God created Lucifer, not Satan. God did not make Judas a puppet to fulfill a plan.

God demonstrates grace and redemption despite the Fall and because of it. His grace and love are still revealed and true even if Hitler does not kill millions (another thing contrary to God's will, not decreed by it).

Calvinism is odious, not glorious. You are twisting facts to support your flawed ideas. There are better, more biblical, explanations to these things.:noid:

 

[steko]

No myth!

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


By posting this scripture, I am not saying that all men will be saved, only that provision is made for all.

 

[Arthur Brain]

There are no doubts, only rebellion.

Well that's about as reasoned and thought out a response as I would expect from you. Cos yeah Nick, everyone who doesn't believe the same as yourself are deliberately 'shaking their fists' and 'choosing' to go to eternal suffering. :hammer: You really have no clue whatsoever...

:rain:

 

[Arthur Brain]

No myth!

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


By posting this scripture, I am not saying that all men will be saved, only that provision is made for all.

That's ok. You don't need to say it. The verse says it for you.

 

[Arthur Brain]

What I say!

God did not "respond" to the fall with a plan of redemption, but rather decreed the fall to display and demonstrate the redemptive grace and such qualities found only in the Son of God; Jesus Christ.





Poor analogy, in that you are not the creator of any you deal with.

The "victims" whom you treat, are not the original works of your hands, and so your "works of mercy" cannot possibly or legitimately be compared to those of ALMIGHTY GOD!

Nang

So basically God creates people predestined to be the elect and others fitted for destruction in order to display His justice to the elect? Am I getting the basic gist of this correct?

lain:

 

[horiturk]

i'll say it again,i'm only interested in what jesus said.....everyone else making claims in the bible is speculation. if he gave private guru initiatic instructions to the disciples there would have been more recorded.

 

[beloved57]

steko:

Nope. Israel always means bloodline Israel

No it does not. Rom 9:6


6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[Spiritual], which are of Israel[bloodline]: