Theology Club: The Mystery: One Lump, or Two :)

[Danoh]

I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion. Danoh makes some really good points and so does STP. I'm curious about the word "establish" which as I understand it can mean a new thing or make something more firm. I'm going to read both these last two posts again (I've already read them twice), but just so you know....I appreciate you guys taking the time to share.

Hi, sis; glad you're enjoying our exchange. Feel free to contribute.

It's great to be able to explore each our understanding of these fascinating issues in the spirit of faith, hope, and love, in contrast to having to be right, having to browbeat one another, and the rest of that nonsense.

But, like I said, STP is the Barney to my Andy, lol

Andy and Barney on a quite night on Andy's porch after a day, dealing with the jaywalkers, and window breakers (lol, would that life were that simple)...

Barney: Yep...

Andy: Yep...

Andy: Yep

Lol

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The following passages helped me to understand how some people during Acts believed the gospel of God, had a faith, but were not yet in the Body of Christ having yet believed the gospel of Christ.



Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Acts 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

Those who believed that Jesus is the Chriust received life when they believed that truth:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

Those who believed that truth received life when they were born of God when they believed:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (1 Jn.5:24).​

These words of John were written to men living in the first century and the Greek word translated "believeth" is in the "present" tense so John's words are saying that anyone living at that time were born of God.

 

[Danoh]

Oh, well, so much for the hope the thread would not be derailed by the need of some to hound after others attempting to prove one is oh so right...

So long thread and these other issues you had sought to explore, and this, in the spirit, of faith, hope and love...it was a short, but worthwhile ride.... maybe some other time... thanks STP and Gloryddaz, I appreciated your input...

 

[glorydaz]

Oh, well, so much for the hope the thread would not be derailed by the need of some to hound after others attempting to prove one is oh so right...

So long thread and these other issues you had sought to explore, and this, in the spirit, of faith, hope and love...it was a short, but worthwhile ride.... maybe some other time... thanks STP and Gloryddaz, I appreciated your input...

Don't you dare surrender. Put him on ignore.....seriously. Do it. Do it right now.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi, sis; glad you're enjoying our exchange. Feel free to contribute.

It's great to be able to explore each our understanding of these fascinating issues in the spirit of faith, hope, and love, in contrast to having to be right, having to browbeat one another, and the rest of that nonsense.

I think it's important to remember that Paul could not see into the hearts of men any better than we can. So when he was preaching or writing a letter it had to be to whoever was sitting in the assembly. Many had heard the Gospel but may not have been fully persuaded or had not yet been baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ, as STP pointed out. And I also think it would depend on what Paul meant in a particular place when using the word establish.

 

[patrick jane]

The following passages helped me to understand how some people during Acts believed the gospel of God, had a faith, but were not yet in the Body of Christ having yet believed the gospel of Christ.



Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Acts 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.



1 Thessalonians 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.

1 Thessalonians 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God


But Paul is ran out of town,


Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.


But later, Paul sends Timothy back to those who believed Jesus is the Christ to establish them in the gospel of Christ, how that Christ died for the sins and rose for their justification.


1 Thessalonians 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;

1 Thessalonians 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:



I believe the Romans were in very much the same situation. They had heard that Jesus is the Christ, that he had died and rose again, and was indeed the Son of God. And they believed. But Paul wanted to establish them in the gospel of Christ, and in the Body.


Romans 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,



:e4e:

At least in my mind, this is as plain as day.

yes STP, i agree. i have been re-reading Acts and focusing better -
STUPENDOUS -

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Don't you dare surrender. Put him on ignore.....seriously. Do it. Do it right now.

You put the word of God on ignore and that is why you do not want to deal with what I said here:

Those who believed that Jesus is the Christ received life when they believed that truth:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

Those who believed that truth received life when they were born of God when they believed:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (1 Jn.5:24).​

These words of John were written to men living in the first century and the Greek word translated "believeth" is in the "present" tense so John's words are saying that anyone living at that time who believed that Jesus is Christ were born of God.

Now glorydaz, scream out to your comrades, run and hide because we have no answer to what he said!

 

[heir]

STP, I thought I'd reply on this in its own thread.

In the above, you and Heir were responding to our difference in understanding as to the status of the Romans Paul wrote Romans to, before Paul wrote to them.

If I understand correctly, your view is that they were proselytes. My own view is that they were already members of the Body of Christ.

The facts are, that there were Romans (at the very least one/the ”thou” of Romans 2:17 KJV that I believe Paul zeros in on as an example) who were “called a Jew, and restest in the law,…” and “were partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree” (Romans 11:17 KJV). This was their prior position before Paul and not who they became as:

I can see that they had a faith, but not a mutual faith of both Paul and them (Romans 1:8 KJV, Romans 1:12 KJV).

I can see that Paul writes to them longing to see them, that he may impart unto them some spiritual gift, to the end they may be established (Romans 1:11 KJV) and what that gift is (Romans 1:15-17 KJV).

These Romans who had a faith which I believe was in the gospel of God (Romans 1:1-4 KJV) were in need of continuing in the goodness of God or they were in danger of being cut off (Romans 11:22 KJV)! That cannot be speaking about ANYONE who already had a position in the Body of Christ as we cannot be cut off (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV, Ephesians 4:32 KJV).

And I'm not sure how any of the above negates my comment that led to yours:

Not true. Those who will be born again are not in the one Body. Their church, gospel, doctrine, day of atonement and inheritance are all different than that of the BoC.

Lol, sis - but there goes what you assert about those in Romans 2:17's "Thou art called a Jew," as being a reference to those Gentiles made first; partaker's of Israel's promise, then; members of the Body.

 

[heir]

Heir, regarding your above to Jerry, as you know, you and I also differ somewhat in our understanding of that. The following is mine.

I'll try to get to this post as soon as I get some shut eye and some coffee. I may need a whole pot. That's a long post.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

These Romans who had a faith which I believe was in the gospel of God (Romans 1:1-4 KJV) were in need of continuing in the goodness of God or they were in danger of being cut off (Romans 11:22 KJV)! That cannot be speaking about ANYONE who already had a position in the Body of Christ as we cannot be cut off (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV, Ephesians 4:32 KJV).

Are you serious?

Are you actually saying that the epistle to the Romans was not written to those in the Body of Christ?

Are you saying that they did not receive the gospel of grace despite what is written at the fourth chapter of the epistle to the Romans?

Your teaching differs nothing from the discredited ideas found within Bullingerism.

 

[Sherman]

Jerry, you need to lose the strident tone where you are attacking the poster rather than the posts themselves. The staff are getting complaints about it, which means you are presenting yourself as a distraction.

To remain in the theology Club you will need to be able to play well with others. The Theology Club is for folks who do not wish to bicker, fight, play games, obfuscate, or otherwise present themselves as a distraction to the discussion.

 

[Tambora]

Jerry, you need to lose the strident tone where you are attacking the poster rather than the posts themselves. The staff are getting complaints about it, which means you are presenting yourself as a distraction.

Thank you very much, Sherman. It would be nice to get this forum back to what it was intended to be.

There should be none of that in this forum. And that goes for us all.

 

[heir]

Are you serious?

Are you actually saying that the epistle to the Romans was not written to those in the Body of Christ?

Are you saying that they did not receive the gospel of grace despite what is written at the fourth chapter of the epistle to the Romans?

Your teaching differs nothing from the discredited ideas found within Bullingerism.

I have every reason to believe they became members of the Body of Christ, but they weren't at Paul's writing of the letter to them.

 

[heir]

Heir, regarding your above to Jerry, as you know, you and I also differ somewhat in our understanding of that. The following is mine.

In Romans 1, Paul is asserting that he was separated unto the Gospel of God...concerning His Son; Who was promised afore by His prophets in the Holy Scriptures.

He is not asserting he was separated unto God's prophesied gospel of God concerning His Son, rather; unto the gospel of God concerning His Son that Paul was given to preach; "the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the Mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest..." Rom. 16:25.

Continuing on that assertion in Romans 1, he goes into his desired intent in writing Romans...

First, Paul was separated unto the gospel of God

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

as in separated for the work that he was called to do, much like:

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

It is a sending forth:

Acts 13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

Acts 13:4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus

In the face of his having been unable to do what he had been able to do, for example, in Acts 20, at Ephesus - ground them in the mutual faith they too had been called unto, Rom. 1:7....

In absence of that, he writes Romans as his means of some spiritual gift in written form, whereby they might be established in the mutual faith both of you (they were already Mystery Body members) and of me (as was Paul).

The Romans were called to be saints. It doesn't necessarily mean they were members of the Body of Christ at that moment. These Romans had a faith that was spoken of throughout the whole world, but it was not the mutual faith of both Paul and them (Romans 1:7-8 KJV). Paul longed to see them, that he may impart unto them some spiritual gift to the end they may be established; that is, that he may be comforted together with them by the mutual faith both of them and him (Romans 1:9-12 KJV ). Them hearing and believing would make them have a mutual faith!

The "some spiritual gift" can be shown to be the gospel of Christ and the reason that Paul longed to see them was to impart it to them. I believe it's because they had never heard it. They were not yet established. The gospel of Christ is what would establish them (1 Thessalonians 3:2 KJV).

Romans 16:25-27 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

(side note: That is not the gospel of God that you mixed together in the beginning of your post to me. The gospel of God is the WHO of Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead. It is not the WHY of the cross; the gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, Paul's "my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,...")

Because these Roman had never heard the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV):

Romans 1:15-17 KJV So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, you need to lose the strident tone where you are attacking the poster rather than the posts themselves. The staff are getting complaints about it, which means you are presenting yourself as a distraction.

I am merely doing what Paul said to do here:

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Tim.4:2-4).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have every reason to believe they became members of the Body of Christ, but they weren't at Paul's writing of the letter to them.

So these words are not speaking of the Body of Christ?:

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

Also, are we to suppose that those to whom Paul addressed these words had not received the gospel of grace?:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

You obviously do not even understand what the gospelof grace is about!

 

[heir]

So these words are not speaking of the Body of Christ?

The Romans were believers (Romans 1:8 KJV), but not established into the Body by the gospel of Christ. I've no doubt that they became members of the Body of Christ as they were of the remnant according to the election of grace at that present time (Acts 20) which God foreknew (Romans 11:1-6 KJV, Romans 8:28-30 KJV).

Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

Romans 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

Romans 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

Romans 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Romans were believers (Romans 1:8 KJV), but not established into the Body by the gospel of Christ.

So these words are not speaking of the Body of Christ?:

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

Also, are we to suppose that those to whom Paul addressed these words had not received the gospel of grace?:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

You obviously do not even understand what the gospel of grace is about!

 

[Ktoyou]

These words of John were written to men living in the first century and the Greek word translated "believeth" is in the "present" tense yes so John's words are saying that anyone living at that time were born of God.

No

John's words are saying that anyone living at that time who believed that Jesus is Christ were born of God.

Correct

You do seem to stalk around where the OP did not invite you? Doing this to an extreme would be annoying. Better stop it.

 

[patrick jane]

So these words are not speaking of the Body of Christ?:

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

Also, are we to suppose that those to whom Paul addressed these words had not received the gospel of grace?:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

You obviously do not even understand what the gospelof grace is about!

again as I only graze over your posts, heir answered and defeated your questions and then you pick another scripture and frame a question by asking "so these words are not . . . ?" - ridiculous