ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[glorydaz]

There was no command or law concerning Adam's nakedness.
And thus, Adam did not see his nakedness as shameful in need of covering.
Before he ate of the fruit he didn't see being naked as shameful.
Since there was no law or command concerning nakedness, he had no knowledge of it being shameful until after he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and his eyes were opened and he saw his nakedness as shameful.

How could not have knowledge of his nakedness as shameful before he ate the fruit, unless something about that fruit revealed to him the shame of it?

His conscience was awakened when he ate the fruit.

 

[glorydaz]

Let's keep going with that and see what the logical conclusion will be, no matter how dumb some of the questions might sound.

The fruit that Adam ate was from the tree of knowledge of good AND evil.
People tend to focus on the evil part, but the fruit also imparted the knowledge of GOOD also.

This would seem to imply that Adam did not formally have the knowledge that made one capable of recognizing good from evil. In other words, saw everything as neutral morally. And is why he had no inclination to cover his nakedness before that.
And is why the fruit, by all appearances, looked 'good' for consumption.

One could certainly put it together in that way for it to seem reasonable.

But we probably need to keep going for a final conclusion.

We see the use of good and evil several times in Scripture. Here, for instance.

Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.​

Is this the first exercise of free will for Adam and Eve....the eating of the forbidden fruit?

 

[Interplanner]

So knowing your wife is to "determine" her?

Of course not, that's a different Hebrew word. The first thing to know about a language is how many terms they might use that get crassly translated in English. Find good Hebrew commentaries. Most translators did not want to say anything sexual, so they passed on that.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

What "death" is being spoken of in "bold"?

Jude 1:12

"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;"

 

[glorydaz]

Of course not, that's a different Hebrew word. The first thing to know about a language is how many terms they might use that get crassly translated in English. Find good Hebrew commentaries. Most translators did not want to say anything sexual, so they passed on that.

Oh, so you're talking about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? To determine what is good and what is evil? So what happens once you have determined whether something is good or evil?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

In order to swallow the idea that God would saddle all men with ADAM'S sin, one would have to question the very righteousness and justice of God. Man would have a perfect reason for claiming he can't help being sinful. He could legitimately claim he was born a homesexual, for instance. If men are born sinners then God shouldn't expect anything from any of us. But, He does.

What happened to not supposed to be asking God idiotic questions?

Why does he find fault?

Why have you made me thus?

 

[Lon]

This is what I said and this is the same thing with which you agree:

And when his descendants sinned against that law they died spiritually.​

So you agree with me that it is a person's own sin that results in spiritual death.

That truth directly contradicts what we read in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

According to this the spiritual death experienced by Adam and Eve was conveyed to all their posterity by original generation. But now you recognize that the spiritual death of men happens because of their own sin and not because the spiritual death of Adam and Eve is conveyed to them.

At least you are beginning to see the truth that Calvinism is wrong about how spiritual death comes to men.

No, I'm saying rather that the Law's verdict is also death. Regarding God, it is the Spiritual Paul is concerned with because his specific audience, in this section, are that part reading this letter, that are Israel.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, I'm saying rather that the Law's verdict is also death.

What kind of "death" is being referred to here in "bold"?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jude 1:12

"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;"

That doesn't tell me what kind of "death" is spoken of here in "bold":

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

If you do not want to answer that question then perhaps you can tell me what kind of "death" is spoken of in this verse:

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).​

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Since you are so sure you are right about this subject please tell me what "death" is being referred to here?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

I see matters important in your point here and I want to bolster your point. Paul is a Jew of Jews and people forget that he was a Torah power house. To be precise... (Php. 3:5)...

One word people are forgetting... Seder... (Pass Over) ... the reference is in Paul's words... this is why I keep pointing to (Heb. 2:14)

All the elements are in this passage... but a big clue is the way "death" is referred to. I believe Paul is referring to a complexity that many don't see. In other words... the Angel of Death is revealed in Heb. 2:14 and more specifically... Rm. 5:12 nods to him, while the Lambs blood on the doorposts comes in at Romans 5:18.

I bring this up now, because it's time to go deeper into the Jewish mind here... in my opinion.

 

[Lon]

What kind of "death" is being referred to here in "bold"?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Death in general I expect: Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Death in general, and that as a result of sin Romans 5:12
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Death in general I expect: Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Death in general, and that as a result of sin Romans 5:12
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is where 1 Cor. 15:55f assists in conjunction with Heb. 2:14 to what you are quoting...

At this point... note... Death is a sting or bite... but only to our dust... Jesus backs this understanding up through Mt. 10:28 ... do you follow now?

Though our bodies retun to dust... Jesus is iterating that the devils impact is moot... God has supremacy over the soul... and body... and because of Calvery... the devil is stripped of all authority and only left with lies. (1 Pt. 5:8)

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Jude 1:12

"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;"

But... look at Romans 5:12 and tell me if you see the Seder reference? Also... do you see the Blood on the doorposts in Rm. 5:18?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

But... look at Romans 5:12 and tell me if you see the Seder reference? Also... do you see the Blood on the doorpists in Rm. 5:18?

Yep.

Spiritual life is much better than contemplating death. :thumb:

 

[Nick M]

I don't think so.

This topic of original sin reminds me of what the Calvinists try to pull off, when they claim God saves a select few and damns the others to hell.

So by many he doesn't mean "plural"? Romans 5:18 tells us what he means. All are offered life, not all accept it.

 

[Nick M]

But where does it say men are born dead as original sin insists?

There is no original sin, after the cross.

 

[Shasta]

Problem is, if the legal imputation of a death sentence upon the first Adam is denied, the biblical basis for the legal imputation of the last "Adam's" (Christ's) righteousness upon all His offspring, is destroyed.

No, because "imputation" is not about "crediting" the merits of Christ's personal righteousness "to our account." It is about being forgiven and cleansed by the blood of Christ.

1 How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! 2 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!…
(Psalm 32:1)

6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin”
(Romans 4:6-8)

The Lord does not "count" or "reckon" the sins of someone who has put their faith in Christ against them because they have been forgiven. However, this forgiveness and cleansing is ongoing
(1 John 1:7-9

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Death in general I expect: Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

No, not death in general. No one dies "physically" as a result of their own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

When mankind was denied access to the tree of life it was destined that all men will die physically (Gen.3:22-24;Heb.9:27).

When men sin they die "spritually." That means that before they sin they are alive spiritually. That means that no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

That means that the teaching of Calvinism that Adam's spiritual death has been imputed to all his descendants is nothing but a myth.

 

[God's Truth]

No, not death in general. No one dies "physically" as a result of their own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

When mankind was denied access to the tree of life it was destined that all men will die physically (Gen.3:22-24;Heb.9:27).

When men sin they die "spritually." That means that before they sin they are alive spiritually. That means that no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

That means that the teaching of Calvinism that Adam's spiritual death has been imputed to all his descendants is nothing but a myth.

That is not true. We all die because we all sin. We all spiritually die when we live to please the flesh, and that is what hardens us and blinds us. However, we all are born without the knowledge of God and that is what changed when Adam and Eve sinned. Not all are completely spiritually dead, as the Calvinists preach. Not all only live to please their flesh. Not all are so accustomed to doing evil that they cannot change, like the leopard and it's spots.

 

[God's Truth]

No, because "imputation" is not about "crediting" the merits of Christ's personal righteousness "to our account." It is about being forgiven and cleansed by the blood of Christ.

1 How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! 2 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!…
(Psalm 32:1)

6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin”
(Romans 4:6-8)

The Lord does not "count" or "reckon" the sins of someone who has put their faith in Christ against them because they have been forgiven. However, this forgiveness and cleansing is ongoing
(1 John 1:7-9

Right, and as long as the person has an ongoing desire to please God.