ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[Lon]

Without a doubt EE is conscious of the level of hatefulness he posted towards me, by his slobbering apology to you.

Why should any Christian have to put up with such scathing and unfounded criticism directed toward their beliefs?

What good purpose do you think EE's post achieved? Why and how does it now make sense to you?

I am a very staunch Reformer and Scripturalist, but I deny being Hyper-Calvinist. I am also quite human and have feelings that can be hurt when I am abused.

Frankly, I think I deserve an apology from both of you for this very rude exchange.

I replied to him as if I were you, because I thought I was you at the time. He said it wasn't 'my' mail but I told him in PM he could take it as coming from you or me or another Calvinist then, because I thought it was how a Calvinist would respond. I 'think' you are asking me for an apology for not standing up for you, but when I thought it was to all of us, I did. Not that I was mean about it, nor that I took offense. I was hurt by those words to me as well. You can ask EE, but I PMed him that gentleness is better than his open post to you so you are not seeing what is going on behind the scenes. I apologize for thinking you a hyper-Calvinist as well, but I was never saying such to be rude. It was rather a mistake but I haven't said so in thread. I generally am thinking of hyperCalvinists in general and I think, perhaps, you are taking offense at me where absolutely none is intended. I told Eagles Wings that you often dive into threads for the long haul, and that I tend to want to say what I believe needs to be said, then extricate myself lest I'm trying to be but a planter/waterer. God has to give the increase in there somewhere and so I wait patiently for that to happen.

On top of that, I'm dealing with the loss of someone I've been praying for, during his short eight years on the planet. I am also grieving yet, for putting my beloved cocker spaniel down as well as battling severe allergies from the poplar trees next door, all five of them, so if I'm apologizing for not being the knight and protector, I apologize for that as well, m'lady. You are correct and I will try to hold my lance higher. I wasn't complaining, but it was certainly dipping and I am indeed neglect in my duties. I pray your pardon and forgiveness. -Lon

 

[Lon]

Witmer is saying that Paul died spiritually when he sinned. And common sense dictates that a person must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually.

:nono: Look again:
"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).[/QUOTE]'Sin' (noun). Not sin (verb).

Is that the reason why you defend the idea that the LORD makes men in such a way whereby they are wholly inclined to all evil and then He sends them to hell for doing the very thing which He designed them to do? I think that you have a warped idea concerning His sovereignty:

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 Jn.1:5).​

Again, there is no blame on the general who has to push the button on a village that is full of infection and fatal disease. It is a 'mercy' killing. God did exactly this when He flooded the earth. It didn't work. As I said, 'if' man were basically good from birth, then Noah's deliverance would have ended it. It is not just a 'whim' or 'peer' pressure that we sin. We aren't 'learning' to do it. Jesus said, what comes from 'inside' a man is what makes Him unclean, not what he/she does on the outside. As far as Calvinism, you need not be too caught up with such. Rather all of orthodox Christianity believes in Original Sin doctrine. While a Calvinist may tell you something different, my response is within the orthodox expression. I am trying to answer you from all of Christendom rather than from any particular branch of it, using scriptures, as to why sinless birth is eschewed. You and I will have to wrestle over this with God. I don't desire to pick a subject to the endth degree, because I find it tends to cloud issues. You have, I think, sufficient scriptures and reasons given for why we think it unorthodox and against the express impressions of scripture. In Him -Lon

 

[George Affleck]

Why would any Christian think that another Christian believes that God designed mankind to be wholly inclined toward evil?
Did He not declare everything He created to be very good?

It's really embarrassing to watch people deliberately represent others dishonestly.
At the very least be truthful about what someone else believes before you disagree with them.
Have the courtesy not to tell lies about them.

 

[Lon]

Scriptures to consider for the thread in general:

Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”
Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Gen 6:11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence.
Gen 6:12 And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.
Gen 6:17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.
Gen 7:23 He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark.
Gen 8:21 And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.

 

[glorydaz]

Dead means inoperable.

Well, I guess that's one opinion.

Colossians 2:12KJV Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.​

Rather the phone line (connection) is dead....between man and his Creator. I know for a fact that hearing the word of God can revive that connection. Back to what we were before our sin separated us from Him.

 

[glorydaz]

Dead means inoperable. Alive means that it is active and performs the functions it was designed to do. In the NT a "spiritual person" is one who navigates through daily life with a functioning spirit. A person's spirit gives them such attributes as God consciousness, revelation of God's principles, and discernment. The soulish or natural man does not function in those areas. Children do not either, in my experience.

Let us consider the tabernacle which was a tri-partite structure that is comparable to us. We dwell in a tabernacle of flesh and have two immaterial parts called the soul and spirit. The innermost part was meant to be the meeting place between God and man. In us our human spirit is the part we have in common with God. Animals do not have spirits and so cannot commune and communicate with God.

Until someone is born of the Spirit they do not fellowship with God. Instead they are dominated by the desires of the flesh and mind. It is not enough, though, just to activate the spirit. It actually has to be remade. The fact that we need a new spiritual birth shows that the first birth was not enough to grant us spiritual life.


…5 Jesus answered “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’…(John 3:5-6)

Our first birth was physical and gave rise to our physical life. The rebirth is spiritual and gives rise to spiritual life. Jesus distinguishes between these two kinds of births and two kinds of life. He had to make a clear distinction between the two for Nicodemus. Flesh is born of flesh means that physical birth begets physical life - not spiritual life which is why Nicodemus had to be born a second time, this time of the Spirit.

You were asking about God "forming" spirits. I do not think we are as God originally made us to be. God is also not in the business of creating new spirits for each person as they are conceived. I believe everything we are - body soul and spirit comes from our parents from the laws of reproduction which God included in man's biological design.

Children are innocent and are therefore not culpable for their actions. Because of this, there is no hostile enmity between them and God. Jesus commended children because they easily believe and for their simplicity. They are what they are and lack hypocrisy. We should be like children in some ways but definitely not in others.

I'm sorry, Shasta, but there is way too much outright speculation there for me. If you want to break it down and support a particular thought, I'd be more than happy to listen.

 

[glorydaz]

BTW I do not believe in "Original Sin" as it was formulated by Augustine or later by Calvin. The sin nature is not the result of a legal "imputation" in which God transfers the guilt of Adam's sin "to our account." Such a transfer would not be just.

True, it would not be just.

However, neither do I believe human beings are born with spiritual life. It is the absence of the influence of the Holy Spirit that inevitably results in people becoming sinners. If we were all born alive spiritually there would be no need to be born "again." If this were so some people would be perfect because they chose to go from being good boys and girls to good adults. This does not happen.

The reason it doesn't happen is not because we inherited Adam's sin, it's because sin (via the devil) entered this world. With him came corruption and death. Man in his natural state desires happiness and the things it takes to make him happy....but satan will not have it. He gets man under bondage as soon as he can get them to choose evil over good (at the age they can be held accountable). Of course all men sin, satan knows no bounds when it comes to tempting man. He succeeded with Adam, and he eventually succeeds with each of us, but he didn't succeed with Christ.

There is a reason why Jesus had to be virgin-born.

What reason do you think that was?

 

[glorydaz]

1 John 1:7-9 speaks of the process of walking in the light. The Apostle says that this walk brings ongoing forgiveness and cleansing. Such ONGOING cleansing would not be necessary if you were completely sinless. John also says "he that commits sin is of the Devil" The word "commit" means to practice sin as a lifestyle. Saying that there is no point between living in sin and being sinlessly perfect is a false dichotomy and it is not scriptural. If you believe in sinless perfectionism then you should read Wesley.

So, I notice you have to add things to those verses in order for them to make any kind of sense to you. Like that "ongoing cleansing" and that ongoing forgiveness. Then you change commits sin to "practices sin as a lifestyle". Paul tells us we are perfect (complete) IN CHRIST JESUS. Is that what John is talking about? No, he is not talking about being created IN CHRIST JESUS and being filled with the Holy Spirit. Is he?


Paul tells us

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.​

No, I believe what Paul tells me...that we are not children of darkness but of the light.

Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

:nono: Look again:
"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).'Sin' (noun). Not sin (verb).

You fail to see that Paul "died spiritually" because of the Law he had broken:

"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).​

That is exactly what I have saying all along. A man dies spiritually when he sins. And in order to die spiritually a man has to first be alive spiritually. That means that all men are born spiritually alive. And that is exactly what Paul is referring to here:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why would any Christian think that another Christian believes that God designed mankind to be wholly inclined toward evil?

I often wonder myself how anyone could ever believe such nonsense. But most of the Calvinists I have encountered believe that very thing. The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

It's really embarrassing to watch people deliberately represent others dishonestly.
At the very least be truthful about what someone else believes before you disagree with them.
Have the courtesy not to tell lies about them.

Who has been telling lies about them? Who has been dishonest? Please give me their names so I can be on the lookout for them.

Thanks!

 

[Lon]

You fail to see that Paul "died spiritually" because of the Law he had broken:

"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).​

That is exactly what I have saying all along. A man dies spiritually when he sins. And in order to die spiritually a man has to first be alive spiritually. That means that all men are born spiritually alive. And that is exactly what Paul is referring to here:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

We've already talked about this same exact verse, at least twice now. This would be the third and there is no point. We are simply going to posturize at this point. The discussion is done. -Lon

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We've already talked about this same exact verse, at least twice now. This would be the third and there is no point. We are simply going to posturize at this point. The discussion is done.

What you said about Romans 5:12 made no sense either time.

 

[glorydaz]

In Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus about the New Birth He said the following:

…5 Jesus answered “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (natural birth) AND the Spirit
(John 3:5).

Water refers to the amniotic fluid which attends the arrival of a human infant at birth. Jesus is saying that it is not enough to be born naturally. One must also be born spiritually. If a person had spiritual life from conception then making this distinction would have been unnecessary.

Hmmm....well, that's one idea.

Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus, a pharisee and ruler of the Jews. He seemed to think Nicodemus should know what he was talking about because of his position. I'm just not sure you should be building upon such speculation here. :think:

 

[glorydaz]

We've already talked about this same exact verse, at least twice now. This would be the third and there is no point. We are simply going to posturize at this point. The discussion is done. -Lon

Posturize? I call it reiteration. You obviously weren't very convincing.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

spiritual life and death... this is an interesting pressure verbiage. Are you now saying that the uniqe union of the Father and Son in mercy towards man that only existed "After Jesus commended His Spirit into the Father's Hands" should be factored into this discussion?

When God made Adam... there was Ruach HaKadesh... but the Holy Spirit you speak of is simply ... dispensationaly inaccurate.

You're not dividing rightly.

:shut: Noop.

You don't know ever thing.

 

[Lon]

Posturize? I call it reiteration. You obviously weren't very convincing.

Correct. Scripture either changes us, or makes us harder and stubborn when we refuse it. We'll both see one or the other from here on out. There is no need to rehash simply the same ones over and over and over. For me, there comes a time when if I don't allow God to work, then it is 'just me.'

I'm not that good or convincing. If what I have said hasn't convinced, I've perhaps a hundred more scriptures, but what would be the point? Aren't we already heading to our respective corners over the matter? I simply want to be faithful to scriptures and I believe God is in charge of us now. I need to leave this in His hands. I don't have to beat anybody with "you are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong." Our Lord God has and will, make Himself clear. That's not our job. My job is now to water what I've said (what I think He has said) in prayer. In our Lord Jesus Christ, -Lon

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Salvational Assurance? This is the one that perplexes me, when all scripture tells us that "Perfect Love" casts out all fear. IOW... Scripture assures us that God keeps God's word and thus... because God "breathed" Eph. 2:8f ... it would foolish to think that God would give us His word that His WORD is sufficient for us.

I'm still not getting why it is so ill to you to assure salvation upon God's Love and Honesty that is PERFECT.

and...

Good answers... But would you kindly answer more directly to the questions in a 1. 2. 3. sort of fashion?

I see the Love motive now, and this changes my view of you for the better, but I will answer the questions very directly in response to what every you state.

1. Exegesis of your understanding
2. Yes or No
3. A, B or C

Please...

Here... I'll Jump...



1} To me... Eph. 2:8f means... Jesus paid my life debt in full and salvation is an absolutely free gift to me, though it cost God "Everything"... and nothing I do (Good or Bad), with the "indwelling" Spirit of Christ (Rm. 8:9 Holy Spirit Eph. 1:13) within me... can take that "gift" away from me ... it utterly depends on Jesus and the only thing I contribute to it is my "Belief" and the dead works of my flesh that make me utterly dependent and in need for God's "gift" of Love, every second of the day (These works -Good or Bad- are not contributions, but instead... affirmations of my need for Him).

I Believe in His DBR for all humanity and thus... I'm Saved!

2) No

3) A

True that you cannot earn salvation.

Not so with Jesus.

Jesus bought you, he paid the cost, how much did it cost God to help his son do it?

Answer up ol wise one.

 

[glorydaz]

The human spirit is not in need of restoration (to a state of childhood innocence) but re-creation.

Our spirit is "quickened"...not re-created. Eph. 2:1KJV

Notice we were dead in trespasses and sins....not in the sin of Adam.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Sometimes I wonder if we are using the same terms. Man is spirit, soul, and body. 1 Thess. 5:23KJV Does God form a dead spirit in us?

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.​

We "die" spiritually, when we first choose evil over good. That same spirit is then quickened when we are reunited with our Creator by the Gospel.


The spirit is that part of man which communicates with God.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.​

The question I have is does God form dead spirits in us because of Adam's sin? If so, why does the Lord Jesus say children rightfully make up the kingdom of heaven, and we must become like them?

Our spirit is never dead.

It just needs to be convinced it in and of itself is not righteous.

We need to learn to be still.

Can you do that on yer own?

 

[glorydaz]

Correct. Scripture either changes us, or makes us harder and stubborn when we refuse it. We'll both see one or the other from here on out. There is no need to rehash simply the same ones over and over and over. For me, there comes a time when if I don't allow God to work, then it is 'just me.'

I'm not that good or convincing. If what I have said hasn't convinced, I've perhaps a hundred more scriptures, but what would be the point? Aren't we already heading to our respective corners over the matter? I simply want to be faithful to scriptures and I believe God is in charge of us now. I need to leave this in His hands. I don't have to beat anybody with "you are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong." Our Lord God has and will, make Himself clear. That's not our job. My job is now to water what I've said (what I think He has said) in prayer. In our Lord Jesus Christ, -Lon

You sound a bit grudging. Perhaps you have some things to learn, and you don't think you need to learn anything. Personally, I learned a lot today...like how the early church fathers rejected the idea of sin being passed down through Adam. :think: