ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[God's Truth]

I'd bet John W, however, is against sinless doctrine. "Obvious" has had this doctrine on the 'naughty list' for centuries. One person, wanting to storm orthodox gates has a huge job before them. It better have some big-guns as it were. Pebbles against the fortress just aren't going to cut it. To date, Jerry is the only 'guy' I know of that espouses this. Mothers who love their 'angels' of course think like this. Something in a mother's eyes, make up 'wives tales.' It isn't all bad, but when it gets in the way of clear thinking.

Necessarily, we were all made sinners by Adam "from birth" because there is no other way to be made a sinner, but that way.

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
The 'many' as he just said as 'all.' Despite a mother's heart, a fancy dance doesn't eliminate context and cannot. The context is that there is only one way. Jesus claimed He was it, not just for 'the many' but all, else John 3:16 doesn't mean 'all' either by the same token.

Romans 3:23 All

Romans 5:8 "we" all of us, else some do not need a Savior, and the Lord Jesus Christ is no longer the Only Way, Truth, and Life whereby men can only through Him, come to the Father.

I truly believe John W would say the same, or nearly so. -Lon

Let's say the child lives to grow up and have a life, God knows what that child will grow up to do.

God hated Esau because He knew he would trade his inheritance for a bowl of food.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I've completed a verse by verse commentary of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezekiel. Moving onto the minor prophets next. Eventually I'll have the commentary of the entire bible.

Whose commentary did you use to write your commentaries?

 

[Tambora]

The orthodox gates are built on Sola Scriptura from what I understand.

Did they not notice that verse 18 uses 'all' and verse 19 uses 'many'?

 

[God's Truth]

I call that reaching.

The world was made through Jesus' body, and now he puts us back in him when we are saved.

Even the word reconcile tells us is it about getting back to God.

We are no longer just near Him we are in Him.

 

[God's Truth]

Do you really have to ask that question? Of course this is not saying that death passed upon all men because everyone has a sin nature:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

It means that death came to all men because all sinned.

Now let us go forward. What kind of "death"is being spoken of in "bold" at Romans 5:12?

I say that it cannot be speaking of a physical death because all me do not die physically because they sin. All men are denied the very thing which would allow them to live forever physically and thus they are all destined to die physically (Gen.3:22-24;Heb.9:27).

Since john 5:12 is not speaking of a physical death then it must be speaking of a spiritual death.

Do you agree?

Even a negative thought is sin.

An infant can have negative feelings and not even feel safe, or loved, even though it is safe and loved.

When we are saved we are taught new ways to think. We are to think of what is lovely and true.

 

[Tambora]

Then why did the Lord say we should become like little children?

Matthew 18:3KV And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

DOT.

Mark 10:14-15 KJV
(14) But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
(15) Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Oh, my goodness, Lon claims and repeats adnauseum. "There is none righteous...no not one".

Yes, and he never quotes verses which tell us why there are none righteous:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Ex.32:7).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Even a negative thought is sin.

An infant can have negative feelings and not even feel safe, or loved, even though it is safe and loved.

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas.4:17).​

 

[God's Truth]

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas.4:17).​

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

We have to be taught how to do right in all ways.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

We have to be taught how to do right in all ways.

Are there people that are available as moral authorities? I wonder if people could help with this? Mt. 15:9

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Yes, and he never quotes verses which tell us why there are none righteous:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Ex.32:7).​

I think there is a misunderstanding on the biblically restricted through teachings of men's side.

There are three major issues that they are appearing concerned about.

1: They believe that our discussion is suggesting that we can be righteous like Jesus. I am certain that we of this open discussion are suggesting no such thing. We all sin and have sinned, yet only by Jesus are we saved.

2: They believe that the nature of Christ being discussed is in contradiction to these two scriptures... Heb. 4:15 ... and Rm. 8:3 ... people in other words... need to be assured that we know Christ had no sin... and we know that no man is without guilt of mosaic Law imputed sin, but Jesus... and He is the Only of humanity that is perfect... because He is God and always has been... yet some are misunderstanding...

3: Some are calling this "sinless" doctrine... when we perpetually are stating that only God is without imperfection... thus all humanity fails and Spiritually dies as Adam did... cementing our collective need for Jesus. We are simply stating that we are not born Spiritually dead... it is that all transgress but One. God!

Would this be accurate to iterate, from your perspective Jerry... thus far?

 

[intojoy]

Whose commentary did you use to write your commentaries?

https://www.bible.com/moments/2599572603166231943


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I'm not convinced that has anything to do with the knowledge of good and evil.

Would you and [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] please provide a more clear response to what I have written here? It would be deeply appreciated... because it is more critical to what is being discussed here than is being recognized...

With gratitude,

EE

Spoiler

Good and Evil are the burden of the One just Judge. This is clearly cited as the position of the Morning Star...

We see an abuse of this name and a false right hand of God... The Abuse is seen in Isaiah 14 and the Reconciliation is found in Revelations. We know that Jesus is the true MORNING STAR ... and we further see that He alone is worthy to "Judge". In the end... this is seen as the 24 elders cast their crowns to Jesus. This is cited throughout scripture... but the place where we see that Satan desired and falsly held the position of "judge" is in Zech. 3:1 ... He's at the right hand of "YeHOshua". This is unmistakable as the stone with 7 is referred to at the end of Zechariah 3.

The bottom line is that Only God is deserving of distinguishing Good from Evil. He alone is Good. (Mk. 10:18)

 

[glorydaz]

.


Little children are submissive. Of course we are talking about good little children and not a defiant child. We have to become as little children meaning we have to be submissive to God and confess our sin, humbleness.



That is about this awesome world and how it was made by an Awesome God.

No, it is about children who are too young to know to choose good over evil.

 

[glorydaz]

The world was made through Jesus' body, and now he puts us back in him when we are saved.

Even the word reconcile tells us is it about getting back to God.

We are no longer just near Him we are in Him.

The world was made through Jesus' body? Show me the verse.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The world was made through Jesus' body? Show me the verse.

GT has TriUne issues... as in... they don't understand the Tri part... They are trying to refer to the Logos. As in... Col. 1:16

In other words... the Son... but... I agree with your assessment.

Wait a minute!!! Is [MENTION=14521]God's Truth[/MENTION] now positively differentiating between the "Father" and the "Son"?

GT? Do you see it now?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

No, it is about children who are too young to know to choose good over evil.

Contained in the Immanuel prophecy is a compliment to what you are saying... it rolls into end times material, as well... but it emphasizes the age of accountability in Christ... As God is utterly sinless, we know He was on point... even before the age of accountability... but I bolded it and colored it.

Isaiah 7...

10 Moreover the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.”

12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord!”

13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good,

Spoiler

the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. 17 The Lord will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.”

18 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will whistle for the fly
That is in the farthest part of the rivers of Egypt,
And for the bee that is in the land of Assyria.
19 They will come, and all of them will rest
In the desolate valleys and in the clefts of the rocks,
And on all thorns and in all pastures.
20 In the same day the Lord will shave with a hired razor,
With those from beyond the River,[c] with the king of Assyria,
The head and the hair of the legs,
And will also remove the beard.
21 It shall be in that day
That a man will keep alive a young cow and two sheep;
22 So it shall be, from the abundance of milk they give,
That he will eat curds;
For curds and honey everyone will eat who is left in the land.
23 It shall happen in that day,
That wherever there could be a thousand vines
Worth a thousand shekels of silver,
It will be for briers and thorns.
24 With arrows and bows men will come there,
Because all the land will become briers and thorns.
25 And to any hill which could be dug with the hoe,
You will not go there for fear of briers and thorns;
But it will become a range for oxen
And a place for sheep to roam.

Ps... does anyone know the highlight code?

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, and he never quotes verses which tell us why there are none righteous:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Ex.32:7).​

Right you are. I also find it interesting that we see no mention of Adam's sin being passed down to all his descendants when God cursed Adam in the garden. I see he would toil by the sweat of his brow and would return to the dust, but not one single mention of any curse being passed down to his offspring. Then, too, throughout the OT, no one blames Adam for having saddled them with any inherited sin.

I also find it interesting that God seems disappointed, and it grieved Him how men had managed to corrupt themselves. Had they inherited a sinful nature from Adam, it seems He would have expected just that.

Gen. 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.​

 

[God's Truth]

GT has TriUne issues... as in... they don't understand the Tri part... They are trying to refer to the Logos. As in... Col. 1:16

In other words... the Son... but... I agree with your assessment.

Wait a minute!!! Is [MENTION=14521]God's Truth[/MENTION] now positively differentiating between the "Father" and the "Son"?

GT? Do you see it now?

I believe Jesus is God with a body, even before coming to earth.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I believe Jesus is God with a body, even before coming to earth.

This is improvement... do you call this the Son?

As in the Son is the Glory or manifestation of the infinite and invisible Father?

Col. 1:15 and Heb. 1:3