THE LORDS DAY CONTROVERSY?

[Lon]

That is a complete non-sequitur with regard to what I asked about what you said.


Please explain this statement.

What does it even mean to "fulfill the law"?

Matthew 5. If the Lord Jesus Christ did not fulfill the law, the requirements would still be ours, and we'd need to become Jews to 'try' to fulfill it. Here, simply explain your understanding of Matthew 5 as it relates to Jews and 'if' it relates to gentiles. I think it does. Show me it does too, or doesn't, as you understand it.

 

[Lon]

uh oh...someone was encouraged...

so this is why you lie now, steal worship from Him, kill the Spirit, worship with false worship? Makes sense...the Law for you is gone...abrogated...done away with...Spirit leads you into what? There is no law...how do you know sin? There is no law?

I read through Galatians again last night. It explains all of this very well. Do you ever read it?

You make Paul a liar, Law still points out sin he delights in it and thanks Yah that through Christ he can serve the law...

I could give a care less (means I really can even put you on iggy for as arrogant and scripturally illiterate as you are, with the audacity to try and assert from that ignorant perspective. I'm MUCH better educated in scriptures than you. You? Arrogant with your little tiny bit of understanding. GREAT, I can put you on ignore. I'm not here for your amusement. I'm here to discuss scriptures as they stand. If they pull in a direction I somehow missed? Great, one day they'll make and mold me. You? You don't understand planting and watering and think you are the Holy Spirit and master teacher of apparently everybody. I could give a care less of what you 'think' about your prowess. I KNOW what it is. Grow. Up. It's biblical. Ephesians 4:13-15 Your problem is you are ONLY interested in what YOU want to be interested in concerning scriptures. Have at it.

You make Yahushua a liar, “think not” He instructed but you do...Sabbath was a Law He specifically expected to be kept long after He had ascended...”Pray” He instructed that it be kept as He intended Sabbath times to continue long into the future...oh and winter times too...or did He abolish that too?

No, I do not, attempted judge of me. YOU need to grow up, little boy. You are a spiritual midget and I'm not saying this to be mean, but the way you do theology debate is a "theology fight" like a child. You've a TON of growing up to do. Start doing it. You are about the worst keeper of the LAW or anything scripture and you do not know it nearly as well as you duped yourself to believe. You are in desperate need of remedial work and don't even know Galatians. Do you have ANY of it memorized by heart? When is the last time you read through it? Its a small book. Read it, Clefty.

So what was abolished? The enmity...which is contained and prescribed in ordinances...

Do you read your Bible? What does it say Jesus abolished? Read Matthew 5:17 THEN Ephesians 2:8-22, Romans 3:21-24

You seem to be a fighting man...sort of...you realize the military word ordnance guns/ammunition is a variant of the word ordinance...being pointed at or shot directly at is a specific enmity...

You are self-projecting. YOU are the fighting man and readily jumped in this thread, purposefully, to continue champion your crusade. Problem? Like any hothead, you did so half loaded. Your scripture knowledge is dismal and you need to be asking questions, lots of them, before running off pulling triggers. You are that man.

the irony the Sabbath was the only commandment given to ISRAEL and the mixed multitude which specifically lists the stranger who is to receive it...

Again, half-cocked. So and what? It doesn't mean anything, except to a Jew. Try as hard as you might, we are not Judaised. It is as simple as the grafted branch: a fig branch connected to an apple tree still produces 'figs.'

You do realize the Sabbath was instituted long before Jews yes?

So 'which' day is it? Saturday? Cut to the chase: what does it matter? What if I started a work week on Wednesday when I first started working? Do I take Tuesdays off? What is YOUR point? What is it, that you think will please God? What is it that you think will not? You are so caught up in this thin veneer of 'obedience' that you miss scriptures and spiritual principles, then run off thinking 'you've got it!' when you missed it. Jesus said no man builds a house until he knows if he has ALL the materials. There is a parable about the blackbird, that builds a globe nest, who tries teaching the rest of the birds how. They kept saying "Oh, we know that!" so the blackbird told them to go build their own nests and so few birds build a globular nest, but a dish. Your theology is half-made and half-preached. You think jot and tiddle means "Old Testament" and forget the New Testament is a LOT of red-letters - God teaching directly! Those you skip to your own demise.

Is man and wife jewish? MARRIAGE...like the Sabbath was instituted at creation...not just for jews

So? Many of the 10 commandments are universal but you don't sacrifice for sin offering. As the scripture itself says: It was a shadow fulfilled in Jesus Christ (read Galatians). The Law was a 'trainer' NOT the standard. It was a place holder for Salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. Good thing too, because you don't keep the law, if all of it is all about loving God and man. You'd keep the letter and miss the WHOLE intent of it. You'd divorce your wife because 'Moses said I could.' That is the problem with trying to follow the letter instead of intent. The reason I don't break driving laws often, isn't because of the punishment, but because I care about people and the laws are made to try to keep people safe. There are times I've broken them (riding a motorcycle often cannot trip the light sensor, so it is allowed to go through a red light, if you have waited, observed, and can do so safely in my state).

Sabbath was even “counted out” prior to receiving the law with the falling of Manna...

So what? READ Galatians. It was a shadow to be fulfilled entirely in Christ. It was the shadow, Christ is the reality. Did you NEVER read "Moses said, by I say" or "You heard it said (law) but I tell you?"

And this heavenly bread did NOT fall on jews alone...but all 12 tribes and those believing goyim following from egypt

You are still chasing shadows...READ Galatians.

Over and over again ONE LAW for native and foreigner ALIKE

Galatians.

Sadly JUST LIKE YOU by the time Yahushua came around Jews thought it was all just for them...

You are stuck in shadows... Come into the light. Matthew 4:16 Ephesians 5:14

Oh btw...4 things were IMMEDIATELY required for goyim to fellowship with jews...no sexual immorality no food offered to idols, no meat strangled or with blood...now do you suppose NOT strangling a swine or dog would make it appropriate for synagogue potlucks? Or draining all the blood makes clean cats bats and wombats...with magic hats?

:nono: NOT for fellowship. That is your law-thumping take on scriptures, wrongly. It was given because it harmed them.

ALL FOUR regulations were ALREADY listed in the OT for believing goyim to follow in order to hear Moses preached every Sabbath...

All connections, out of your head, that you 'think' necessarily have to be connected, the way YOU think they must be. It is deductive reasoning and it colors your entire understanding of scriptures. You, necessarily, will have to throw Ephesians, Galatians, and Romans out of your Bible. Instead, become an expert on Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians. You are missing it.

Hey you could just clarify be providing the correct text you wished to share...I merely offered what you might have intended as there was no 1 Cor 5:17

Um, lying is listed as one you should not trample in the '10.' You know very well what you were 'trying' to do. You can't lie out of it. You were/are exactly this thin and immature.

Let no man judge you...but the body of Christ...

:nono: You are nobody's judge. You are nowhere near mature enough. Sorry. Romans 2 says to knock it off. You know your O.T. but are woefully behind in your New Testament grasp.

https://www.cogwriter.com/news/churc...the-holy-days/

Er, I can read Greek and a bit of Hebrew. It doesn't matter what 'mistranslations are out there.' I don't need second-hand information regarding this.

choose ye this day Whom ye will serve...falsely?

as the pagan loves? The Buddhists? The muslims? He said love AS I have loved you...JUST AS...not with a new deviation cleverly manufactured by man’s traditions

All manufactured fears from your own head. It is nowhere near the context of this discussion, simply your manufactured dis-qualifiers (strawmen at this point with near (at least) zero comparative interest). Few who follow scripture read from these sources.

when is the messenger attacked? when the message is what?...

:think: "Wrong?" "When the messenger gets it wrong?" :think:

what you are convinced of has been shown in error...yet again...

:nono: Not a chance. In your limited mind? Sure. lain:

feel better?...can we make it less about me maybe and back to Him His Way as He taught AND demonstrated the New Covenant way prior His death signing it with His blood and sealing it with His death...

No, little child. You are arrogant and full of yourself. I don't care. It is about calling a spade a spade, accurately. I read between the lines quite well. It is evident and you are found wanting.

and so by Law you are inheritors of the Promise...citizen of Israel...unless like some here even more MAD than you insiste it is NOT for them...something about being Lawless or something...

Yet a fig tree continues producing figs. You are simply 'trying' to be a Jew. Read Galatians.

...things of Yah...set aside...made Holy...please show were Sabbath is NO LONGER HOLY

We'll see if you can 'define' the Sabbath today. I don't believe you can. You still think it is a day of the week on a Julian calendar, right?

Even in beginning Eve ADDED to the word of Yah claiming they were not to TOUCH...but that is NOT what was instructed...

You now do the same adding and removing from His Word...

:nono: Incorrect. Read again: Matthew 5:17 THEN Ephesians 2:8-22, Romans 3:21-24
One would seem to contradict the other. Instead of reconciling, you simply try and cancel one out. :nono: Wrong answer.

first you would destroy His Immutable Eternal Law...and now you go after biological laws...

Which makes you a Jew. It was a shadow, Clefty. It 'sounds' like you read WAY more O.T. than New and consequently, pay much less attention to the New Testament. It makes you a functional Jew. Try to get/keep Salvation that way? Galatians says it is 'foolish.' Do you READ the New Testament? Did you stop? What in the wide world is going on?

Most fruit trees are compatible within their species, but many are also compatible within their genus. That means that Prunus species such as plums, nectarines and peaches can be grafted onto the same tree. Apples and crabapples are often grafted together to create a tree that can self-pollinate and prolong the apple harvest. Another common "fruit salad tree" is created when many types of citrus are combined on a single rootstock.

The fact that grafts between incompatible trees fail, often immediately, is widely understood, but the mechanism behind this failure is harder to see. At the cellular level, two trees are attempting to communicate and merge their vascular systems to make a single structure. No exchange of DNA takes place, but the rootstock does require similar cells for a healthy connection. The bud forms a callous on the cut side almost immediately as the rootstock's xylem cells are at work attempting to grow over the bud. After several weeks, the bud is completely surrounded by the rootstock's tissues, and the nutritional transport systems begin to join. If the rootstock finds tissues that it cannot communicate with because of cellular or chemical incompatibilities, the graft fails and the bud dies from starvation.

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/can-gr...her-60466.html

You really are childish. All this simply to display your horticultural prowess. There is a LOT of pride going on in your conversation. You entered with it and are maintaining it. Analogy isn't supposed to rabbit trail into the meaningless.

So the closer we are to HIS FAMILY the more likely our fruits will MATCH...neat eh?

Because you are taking analogy to endth degrees to try to assert? Is that what you call 'neat?' :think: You really are a child and argue/reason like one.

Because He lied when He said the Sabbath was made for man...and He actually meant just for jews?

You are still under the impression that man needs to 'rest.' It is true that we have many 'sabbaths' and it is built in. What you fail to understand is that simply taking off one day a week is not something that fulfills one of the 10. Rest is about renewal and is made 'for' man. You've somehow managed to make something that we have to have/do, into a command like "Command 11: Breath air!" "Command 12: Drink 8 glasses of water!" You said the Sabbath, for you, was ' day to rest,' a little self-indulgence. A day to be selfish and 'take care of me for a change.' At least, that is what you defended. I'm fairly certain you don't know why it was one of 10 commands. It was a day, in a week full of hard work, to put one's mind upon God. You don't have to work 24/6 in wheat fields today and most people have both Saturday and Sunday off, so no problem. Rather, the New Testament says "whether you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God' and "Pray without ceasing." Nobody stuck on literal one day observance by Law is going to catch the significance of living in the spirit and so I long for you to grasp walking by the Spirit (and you will NOT fulfill the desires of the flesh). Ephesians 2:10 says we were recreated for 'good' works, not simply avoiding the bad ones.

ONE LAW...for native and foreigner ALIKE...

“Here are they that don’t keep the abolished Law of Yah and the faith OF Yahushua except the Sabbath”...here’s your theology

:nono: Short-sighted. It is all you can see, and you do not see far enough, thus your assessment is short, wrong.

show me where HIS LOVE invited those He loved to Ham dinners after Sunday church power hour...then football...lol

Show me where it does not. "Take Peter, eat. Do not call unclean, what I have called clean."

if He abolished the Law there is NO PENALTY

True. Galatians 5:18 "If you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT UNDER the Law..." Romans 8:1,14

Why even KILL THE SON if the Law can be abolished? You render His sacrifice USELESS claiming the Law is an unnecessary changeable NOT IMMUTABLE NOR PERFECT...

as if scripture helps your inner uncircumcised rebellious non inner jew...

Just because you don't understand something, is not a reason to lash out against it. First grasp what someone is saying, especially if it is scriptures they are telling you...

a child of Yah working out my salvation IN HIM...you should FEAR HIM...One Who can and will destroy disobedient Souls...

I do. You, however, in judgement, don't fear Him as you should. You are too free with your judgments and do seem to think you follow all the O.T. laws better than others. Question: Can someone, a regenerate New Creation; not want to please God? I worry, genuinely, when someone says stuff like you do; if they are a new creation, this conversation just doesn't take place. There is no, 'follow Christ' but rather encouragement. 2 Corinthians 13:5

Yup jewish false witness is what you follow...

Hasty clumsy knee-jerk assessment. You simply aren't listening. If it were Christ's doctrine, there is no need for this. If it is Clefty's? Of course, expected. One is in the flesh, the other is seeking Him. You don't do theology conversations well. You are way too threatened by what Clefty thinks vs. what is true in scripture Scripture takes care of itself. I'm not at all threatened about someone says wrongly about scripture. They simply need 1) the Spirit and 2) to reread it and be corrected. You, Clefty, need to be corrected.

We are to judge the church the world will judge angels even...did I not say you are gods? Elohim mighty ones judges...

In what sense are you God? My scripture ALSO says that I'm made (for one so not any kind of 'god' in that sense - means I GREATLY qualify 'ye are gods') and it says I'm like the grass and flowers that fade. So, in what 'sense' am I compared to God Almighty? More importantly, how close are we on scriptural qualifiers of that? Would you reckon we 'should' be pretty close? I generally believe that 'ye are gods' is relational and that our 'godliness' is rather in whatever manner 1) we are His, and 2) as limited creations, whatever reflection we are of Him with His values and characteristics including love and holiness etc.

It is NOT “do NOT judge” you carnal worldly flesh...but “judge not lest you BE judged”

Same thing.

By their fruits...works...we will know them...

Right, so if I can tell, even in a conversation on the internet, that you don't seem to have a lot of love for me (for instance) then I can surmise you don't keep any of the O.T. commandments as well as you think. The grace? On my side of the doctrine, that it doesn't matter as much as how well you know Him. Forgiveness is by faith. Salvation is by faith. We simply need to rely on the work of Christ. 1 John 4:19 We learn love, by BEING loved. It is why Paul said to 'follow his example as he followed Christ." You cannot 'Sabbath' your way into the Kingdom. The defense of all who were told to depart was "I never knew you." Their defense? "Didn't we...?" They may have 'thought' they kept the commandments, but it didn't boil down to that. It simply boiled down to whether or not the Lord Jesus Christ 'knew them' (knows us). Thus, if any man is in Christ, he/she IS a new creation. There is no 'loving like a Muslim/Buddhist' (not to say that Muslim's don't love, simply that it is limited without Christ). You have weird dichotomies in your theology that aren't true.

We ARE to judge according to the scripture its Law...weed out wolves and false teachers...throw out offenders to Satan that they might be saved

Scripture. Right now, just assertions and you give very few scriptures in your defense. The problem, as I said, is that Clefty (and Lon) is a nobody. Without scripture, there is simply no weight. No impetus even to listen. It is just Clefty's opinion and I already question that.

If you love Him...keep what? NOT HIS FATHER’S WILL?

You already forgot? I asked about commands. Immediately after that sermon to the 12, He said He gave a new command: to love one another. Look it up instead of making it up.

do they play different rules? Score different ways different points? No fouls cuz the rule book has been thrown in the wood chipper? Hardly and come game time talented JV plays WITH VARSITY...by NO RULES? LOL

Yes they do. You may have played, but you never paid attention. I've been a football coach. Is it so hard simply to say "I was wrong?" How arrogant and prideful are you? They play less time, their extra points are different, etc.

So you picking up your ball and running home? More name calling ad homs...cuz why? No other options?

:nono: They are not ad hominems, or attacks on your character. They are accurate assessments of you. directly pertaining to your grasp and debate. You are a child. It means you are clearly immature. It isn't a judgement, there is no 'penalty' for it. It is supposed to give you feedback and should, eventually, assist you in doing much better.

You are FAR from what David and Paul understood as Thy Law is a DELIGHT...

:sigh: Scriptures, please. David did. Paul? Show.

And NOT a milestone...more like a yoke...easy and light...which shows everyone who I am owned by...a benevelont Master who feeds and stables me AND GIVES ME A DAY OFF...may I serve Him His WAY His Law...

The "Law" wasn't mentioned. You made that part up. It was simply "His" yoke.

You like a cow in india is wandering around the streets...yes FREE it’strue...NO YOKE...even worshipped...but...not really the faith OF Yahushua...

Cute emojis though...

Again, assessment: You are immature and inaccurate on this. It means 'wrong.' Sorry, try again. You are a child and need to grow up.

Oh and as for the small “c” Christ I typed once...

You do know He was not born to a couple named Joseph and Mary Christ yes?

I mean to say Christ is not a proper name...

nor was Jesus His name...as He was not English but Jewish...went to Synagoge on Sabbath as was His custom...ya dig?

1) I don't care. 2) It was an example of pettiness, I am not. I didn't/ don't care about what you did wrong as far as a type-o. This is an occupation of simpler minds, not mine. Type-o's are not an occassion for one-upping another except 1) one who is a grammarian and tenacious about it 2) as a petty one-up-manship 3) as an irony against one who does this sort of thing.

 

[clefty]

I read through Galatians again last night. It explains all of this very well. Do you ever read it?

asked and answered...my post #126 but you ignored or avoided it then...why should now be any different? Or like last night when you read Galatians again?...

you prolly missed this last night...right out of the gate...Paul an apostle...of what? The good news gospel that One the Hope of Israel was resurrected and to just the jews...

It was NOT that the Law was dead...we can stop Sabbath days off and eat dogs...

verse 3 you missed too...”GRACE to you”...WHY GRACE if the law was DEAD...destroyed...if so NO NEED for grace...4 “Who gave Himself for our sins”...See? NOT Who destroyed the law so we no longer have it point out our sins...”that He might deliver us from this present evil age”...hmmmm if what points out evil is dead or destroyed what then is evil? Why do any need deliverance? The Law is dead no? Nailed to the cross...or?

Continuing Gal 1 Paul then warns of another gospel and of some who trouble to pervert...I know which perverted another gospel pleases man...that which claims the Law is dead...but Paul insists he seeks NOT to please men but to serve Christ...

Yup your man pleasing another gospel remains the same false witness of Jews who claimed poor Stephen taught Yahushua changed the customs Moses delivered...Luke is CLEAR if Stephen was teaching that the Law was dead it would NOT be a false witness...Acts 6:13-14

I could give a care less (means I really can even put you on iggy for as arrogant and scripturally illiterate as you are, with the audacity to try and assert from that ignorant perspective. I'm MUCH better educated in scriptures than you. You? Arrogant with your little tiny bit of understanding. GREAT, I can put you on ignore. I'm not here for your amusement. I'm here to discuss scriptures as they stand. If they pull in a direction I somehow missed? Great, one day they'll make and mold me. You? You don't understand planting and watering and think you are the Holy Spirit and master teacher of apparently everybody. I could give a care less of what you 'think' about your prowess. I KNOW what it is. Grow. Up. It's biblical. Ephesians 4:13-15 Your problem is you are ONLY interested in what YOU want to be interested in concerning scriptures. Have at it.

ummm...wow...so what is “the faith OF the Son of God?” Islam? “What is the knowledge OF the Son of Godz’ but to do His Father’w Will? “To a perfect man” according to WHAT standard if the Law is gone? “To the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ”...seems like we should be a comparison list of similarities and differences between Him and us...to see how we measure up to Him and His teachings and ways...as He demonstrated for us to follow...

“...may grow up in ALL things INTO Him who is the Head-Christ” would be an odd and dysfunctional body if it did contrary the Head’s desire NO? I mean growing INTO Him means we do NOT have a Law? Nothing written in our circumcised hearts and inner jew minds? I mean He was a jew yes?

He even instructed prayers be said that the Sabbath be kept in the future times of trouble...notice how He didnt instruct prayers be said that any be spared from trouble but that the Sabbath be kept...oh and He intended winter times to continue as well...Matt 24:20

Yeah I think the growing up into the fullness of INTO Christ is to “follow Me love as I do”...JUST AS

No, I do not, attempted judge of me. YOU need to grow up, little boy. You are a spiritual midget and I'm not saying this to be mean, but the way you do theology debate is a "theology fight" like a child. You've a TON of growing up to do. Start doing it. You are about the worst keeper of the LAW or anything scripture and you do not know it nearly as well as you duped yourself to believe. You are in desperate need of remedial work and don't even know Galatians. Do you have ANY of it memorized by heart? When is the last time you read through it? Its a small book. Read it, Clefty.

oh my...you are triggered?...as for Galatians...sure...Why did Peter compel gentiles to live like Jews? If he himself was gonna be a hypocrite trying to do works to please...Paul affirms Peter and Paul were Jews by NATURE not sinners KNOWING that a man IS NOT justified by the works of the Law...because that was clear already in the OT...Abraham by FAITH read Heb 11...

Verse 17 “but IF while we seek to be justified by Christ we ourselves ALSO are found sinners” WAIT WUT?! Christ did away with the Law how can it point out sin? “...is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly NOT!” Because the Law remains to show Paul that if 18 he builds again what he destroyed by faith he is a trangressor...as the Law remains to point that out...

Verse 19 “For I through the Law died TO THE LAW” See? by Law he died NOT THE LAW...Law remains but does not give/bring righteousness...It just remains to point out sin...and our need for Yah’s GRACE...for if it was dead we would NOT NEED GRACE...and IF the Law could be removed or destroyed why NOT before Christ had to die? Was it in vain?

Do you read your Bible? What does it say Jesus abolished?

asked and already answered but ignored and avoided...typical of you...

But again what was destroyed was the wall between jew and gentile the enmity against against GENTILES making ONE NEW MAN from the jew and gentile...is why later Paul affirms gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners but fellow citizens of Israel...so is Israel LAWLESS? This household of God at best an apartheid state with TWO LAWS and at worst ANARCHY? do what thou whilst? Hardly impossible with the MIND OF CHRIST or GUIDANCE OF SPIRIT INTO KEEPING HIS WILL and COMMANDMENTS...think “inner jew” ok?

Read Matthew 5:17

Ok...TWICE He says destroy is NOT what He came to do...so don’t think that...just like when I fulfill the traffic law traveling the speed limit I do NOT destroy the traffic laws for the driver behind me...duh

But you insist the think He did come to destroy...DO NOT

He then assures us that until heaven and earth pass away (THE HAVE NOT) one little jot or tittle will by NO MEANS pass from the Law until ALL is fulfilled is all fulfilled? NO...

You make Him a liar...

He continue with those who break one of the least and teach others to break them too are the least of the kingdom...OUCH! look up what that means...

THEN Ephesians 2:8-22,

yup saved by GRACE...once gentiles but NOW IN CHRIST they are citizens of ISRAEL...just like in the OT one LAW for NATIVE and FOREIGNER ALIKE...

why? because UNLIKE YOU these gentiles are grateful to keep the House Rules of their Savior’s Father...duh...and don’t seek to shirk chores or ignore tasks or claim “NOT FOR ME”...that doesnt even work in a secular house...or country...

Yup ONE NEW MAN a joined into a HOLY TEMPLE made from believing jews and believing gentiles...

HalleluYah...

Is why He said Sabbath was made for MAN not just jews...or you saying He lying...

Romans 3:21-24

maybe read slower? 21“The righteousness of Yah apart from the Law is revealed being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets”...hmmmm Law seems “alive” NOT “dead” there and not destroyed...22”even the righteousness of Yah which is through faith in Yahushua to ALL and on ALL who believe. For there is no difference.” Between jew or gentile...
23 ‘for ALL have sinned” not just jews with their done away Law...

Again...how could these Romans Paul is writing to even sin IF the Law was done away with? And don’t get so MAD and claim it was NOT for Romans or gentiles or you...you are in His House remember?

24 “justified FREELY by His grace through the redemption (from what? the destroyed Law that no longer points out sin? OR redeemed from His WRATH to the transgression of the STILL BINDING LAW?) that is in Yahushua”...

Yup redeemed from the WRATH by Him these gentiles WANTED to remain in His House...unlike you they desired to PLEASE HIM HIS WAY...not shirk or twist or pervert with another “there is no law no rules you shall not surely die” gospel...sound familiar?

You are self-projecting. YOU are the fighting man and readily jumped in this thread, purposefully, to continue champion your crusade.

My crusade? He states clearly My Sabbaths...He made Holy...My sign to His people...your another christ another gospel is jewish false witness that He changed the customs Moses delivered...

Think NOT!

Sabbath is grace given before the Fall...before the Law was revealed...before the first ordnance at you was destroyed by Him...

Problem? Like any hothead, you did so half loaded. Your scripture knowledge is dismal and you need to be asking questions, lots of them, before running off pulling triggers. You are that man.

You make even Isaiah a liar as he prophecied from New Moon to New Moon and Sabbath to Sabbath all will worship...except you claiming all that was done away with...

Again, half-cocked. So and what?

so Sabbath is to all man...as it was even given to the stranger believing with Israel...what? Well He did follow Me if you love Me which means into the Sabbatismos of Heb 4:9

It doesn't mean anything, except to a Jew.

actually a jew NOW argues exactly as you do...rejecting the stranger the sabbath is JUST FOR THEM...LOL ask the satanic Zionist noahides you agree with...

Try as hard as you might, we are not Judaised.

you still miss what the men from Jerusalem were expecting the gentiles to do...be circumcised to be saved...WHICH WAS NEVER TAUGHT IN THE OT as circumscision does NOT save...as it is done to you as an infant...is why most reject infant baptism too

It is as simple as the grafted branch: a fig branch connected to an apple tree still produces 'figs.'

are figs even in the apple family? Fig is Ficus and Apple is Malus...sorry NO MATCH...by their fruits you shall know them...

First you mix His moral Law up and now His biological law...His house rules AND His gardens...you are a HORRIBLE guest...adopted son by the Law of promise and inheritance...oh wait to you LAW is done away with...

So 'which' day is it? Saturday? Cut to the chase: what does it matter? What if I started a work week on Wednesday when I first started working? Do I take Tuesdays off? What is YOUR point? What is it, that you think will please God? What is it that you think will not? You are so caught up in this thin veneer of 'obedience' that you miss scriptures and spiritual principles, then run off thinking 'you've got it!' when you missed it. Jesus said no man builds a house until he knows if he has ALL the materials.

like a child trying on his fathers clothes they dont fit yet...but it pleases him that his child would try...

There is a parable about the blackbird, that builds a globe nest, who tries teaching the rest of the birds how. They kept saying "Oh, we know that!" so the blackbird told them to go build their own nests and so few birds build a globular nest, but a dish.

LOL..yup some bird brains think they follow instructions but clearly don’t...He went to the synagogues on the Sabbath as was His custom...sadly I would be thrown out of synagogues today...by jews thinking like you...He changed the customs Moses delivered...

Your theology is half-made and half-preached. You think jot and tiddle means "Old Testament" and forget the New Testament is a LOT of red-letters - God teaching directly! Those you skip to your own demise.

The red letters that say “do as they teach from Moses seat?” I dont see any that say Sabbath was done away with...

So? Many of the 10 commandments are universal

MANY? LOL...thanks for the concession...last I checked the 10 remain immutable and eternal...even the roman catechism has them as unchangeable but like you they feel custom and tradition has them applied differently...LOL

So so far you teach like false witness jews and Rome...

but you don't sacrifice for sin offering.

right despite the still binding Law that points out our need for atONEment still...His is sufficient...sacrifices purifications and the administration and ministry of the Immutable law has been transferred to a New High Priest...SAME LAW including the Sabbath remains...which point out our need for Him His ministering for our behalf...

As the scripture itself says: It was a shadow fulfilled in Jesus Christ (read Galatians).

Paul was clear in Colossians “these ARE shadows of good things to come”...Heb 8:5 affirms there are STILL priests serving the copy and shadow of the heavenly things...of the STILL binding law and Heb 10:1 affirms the still binding law is HAVING and NOT having HAD a shadow of the good things to come...STILL to come...even after the DBR and ascension of Yahushua...prolly why He expected Sabbath times to continue into the future...oh and winter times too...Matt 24:20

Yup these ARE shadows not were past tense...got it?

The Law was a 'trainer' NOT the standard.

oh you mean like a tutor? AGAIN the tutor teaches you 2+2=4 do you change that when you graduate and go out into the real world? Do you really change the laws of math now too? Contrary to what your tutor taught? You free bird what a rebel easy rider?

It was a place holder for Salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ.

it NEVER SAVED...it pointed out sin and a need for Salvation...faith saved...grateful they obeyed...but actual like you most didnt LOL stiff necked or something

Good thing too, because you don't keep the law, if all of it is all about loving God and man. You'd keep the letter and miss the WHOLE intent of it.

the irony...so Paul lied when he says love fulfills the Law? You mean to say Paul meant love destroys the Law? Or loving JUST AS He loved you is doing His Fathers will as it was in the OT already Love Yah and your neighbor as yourself...the rest is HOW to...not like the pagans or gentle Buddhists or charitable muslims or...but AS HE DID...DO THAT

You'd divorce your wife because 'Moses said I could.' That is the problem with trying to follow the letter instead of intent. The reason I don't break driving laws often,

OFTEN...LOL isn't because of the punishment, but because I care about people and the laws are made to try to keep people safe. There are times I've broken them (riding a motorcycle often cannot trip the light sensor, so it is allowed to go through a red light, if you have waited, observed, and can do so safely in my state).

yup easy riding rebel...

So what?

sabbath counted out before the Law was given is what...Manna bread from Heaven...what grace...foreshadow of good things to come...get it? I am the bread of life from heaven...and to those that overcome it will be a reward Rev 2:17...what is the point of a Sabbath relic being an award or trophy if that Law was done away with?

READ Galatians.

ok so where were we? Chapter 3:6 “just as Abraham believed... 7 ...only those of FAITH are sons of Abraham...8...Yah would justify NATIONS by faith...” so not just jews with their now destroyed law but everyone BY FAITH

Verse 10 cursed is not doing the Law 11 just live by faith OT verse btw 12 but do this and live 13 Christ redeems us from the Law?...NOPE...from the CURSE of the Law...which PROVES it remains and when broken it becomes a ministry of death...even for gentiles...verse 14

Neato right?

It was a shadow to be fulfilled entirely in Christ.

it remains a shadow of good things to come STILL to come as it still remains...

It was the shadow,

IS a shadow present tense

Christ is the reality.

And He is part of the goodness STILL TO COME...

Did you NEVER read "Moses said, by I say" or "You heard it said (law) but I tell you?"

sure but I never added to the word by this the customs Moses delivered was changed...jews did that of Stephen which Luke called false witness...as Stephen did not say He changed customs Moses delivered...

You are still chasing shadows...[/qoute] chasing? Just seeing they point to good things to come...STILL

READ Galatians.

ok...where were we? Oh chapter 3:17 the law cannot annul the covenant made to Abraham...see? as it had NOTHING to do with inheritance but the PROMISE did...law was added because of sin...21 is that law against the Promise...nope only if a law could make righteous...but it cant

Ok the tutor part...which again 2+2=4 remains even after no longer under tutor right?

But you claim faith in Him destroys the Law so what point addition at all?

You are WRONG as putting on Christ 2+2=4 is even for gentiles now...slave free male female and IN HIM

All are Abraham’s seed heirs according to promise...Abraham was NOT a jew btw...but he was male

galatians

LOL...the irony you answered this to my reminding you it was ONE LAW for Native and Foreigner alike in the OT...and NOW here in Galatians we just read again...

IN CHRIST...neither Jew nor Greek...all ONE...LOL

Both all One citizen of Israel...But to you His House is without Law...

You are stuck in shadows... Come into the light. Matthew 4:16

the irony O.T. Scripture...and He began to preach REPENT...cuz the Law was going to be destroyed? Or because a Lawless kingdom was at hand?

Ephesians 5:14

right! And walk circumspectly circumcised LOL...as the Law remains and points out evil everywhere...what is the Will of Lord? “Do my Fathers will”...hard to watch out for evil and do His will if that Light reveals NO LAW exists...

:nono: NOT for fellowship. That is your law-thumping take on scriptures, wrongly. It was given because it harmed them.

LOL...what harmed who...cats bats and wombats harmed who?

All connections, out of your head, that you 'think' necessarily have to be connected, the way YOU think they must be.

idols - Leviticus 17:8-9 "Say to them: 'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice and does not bring it to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting to sacrifice it to the LORD--that man must be cut off from his people.' " To guard carefully against idolatry, this command was interpreted by the Jews to prohibit eating any meat that had been offered in a prohibited manner. In Rev. 2:14, 20 the words of Jesus show agreement with that interpretation.

from sexual immorality - Leviticus 18:6-26 lists a wide range of sexually immoral activities and ends with, "The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things,"

from the meat of strangled animals - Leviticus 17:13,15 "Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth,
"Anyone, whether native-born or alien, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then he will be clean." These were interpreted by the Jews to prohibit eating the meat of strangled animals.

and from blood - Leviticus 17:10 "Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood--I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people."

There is your connections...

Is why James concluded the matter gentiles would continue to crowd synagogues to hear Moses preached EVERY SABBATH

It is deductive reasoning and it colors your entire understanding of scriptures. You, necessarily, will have to throw Ephesians, Galatians, and Romans out of your Bible. Instead, become an expert on Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians. You are missing it.

oh yeah?

Um, lying is listed as one you should not trample in the '10.' You know very well what you were 'trying' to do. You can't lie out of it. You were/are exactly this thin and immature.

LOL...you posted a text 1 Cor 5:17 which thought DOES exist...it does not...and now accuse me of trampling a law you think does NOT exist...it DOES...

LOL...you are too much fun...

:nono: You are nobody's judge. You are nowhere near mature enough. Sorry. Romans 2 says to knock it off. You know your O.T. but are woefully behind in your New Testament grasp.

Romans 2? Verse 13? “For NOT the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the DOERS of the LAW will be justified.”

Looks like judgement standards INCLUDE a still binding Law...

Er, I can read Greek and a bit of Hebrew. It doesn't matter what 'mistranslations are out there.' I don't need second-hand information regarding this.

So you deny the Word in three languages...nice...a hat trick...trifecta at least you are consistant...

All manufactured fears from your own head. It is nowhere near the context of this discussion, simply your manufactured dis-qualifiers (strawmen at this point with near (at least) zero comparative interest). Few who follow scripture read from these sources.

oh my...settle down...

You say to love is enough...the Law done away with...Matt 5:47 says even pagans greet each other 46 love those that love you even tax collectors do that... Luke 6:32 sinners also love those that love them...

His love is different...unique...love AS He did

:think: "Wrong?" "When the messenger gets it wrong?" :think:

:nono: Not a chance. In your limited mind? Sure. lain:

you done?

No, little child. You are arrogant and full of yourself. I don't care. It is about calling a spade a spade, accurately. I read between the lines quite well. It is evident and you are found wanting.

guess not...

Odd response to reminding you He demonstrate to you the lifestyle and teaching of the New Covenant prior His death...no changes after death of testator...and just like Adams covenant the first...this too began with a Sabbath rest...

Yet a fig tree continues producing figs. You are simply 'trying' to be a Jew. Read Galatians.

ummmm yes a fig to a fig...more similar the fruit the better the graft...yours are NOT similar to His fruit...

Chapter 4 heir is like slave as a child learning the his father’s house rules...guarded and with stewards until the time...but One born under the Law redeems those under the Law...AND NOT BY DESTROYING THE LAW...as if suddenly House Rules are done away with upon inheritance

Verse 8 but when these ancient proud people of Gaul did NOT know Yah they served their own calendar and gods but now after you have known Yah rather He KNOWS YOU because you Obey Him now...how is it you return to weak and beggarly elements...to be in bondage...Paul is NOT speaking of Torah but that they return to their own calendar and customs of Gaul...Just like 2 Kings 17 where nations feared the Lord but then worshipped their old ways...

We'll see if you can 'define' the Sabbath today. I don't believe you can. You still think it is a day of the week on a Julian calendar, right?

ask the jews who have been keeping their own throughout...it helps that the Julian was absorbed into the seven day week of the Gregorian without a missed weekday...christendom however remains split on when the new year starts or christmas or easter...one NOT wanting to wait for the jews “their” passover...but yes both calendars are 7 day week cycles and jews just keep calculating along...

:nono: Incorrect.

Eve DID add to the Word as you are here...no law no curse...no penalty of sin and just like the lie in Eden you claim “thou shalt not surely die”...nice company you keep

Read again: Matthew 5:17

yup and yet you do think He came to destroy...as if He no longer was Lord of the Sabbath as well it was destroyed...what use a a lord of London when London is destroyed...or the Lord of the rings when the rings are destroyed...

THEN Ephesians 2:8-22,

yup fellow citizens of Israel no longer aliens to the commonwealth of Israel but from the two ONE...joined into a holy temple...got it?

Romans 3:21-24

for all have sinned not just jews...unless of course the Law no longer is there to point sin out...

One would seem to contradict the other. Instead of reconciling, you simply try and cancel one out. :nono: Wrong answer.[/qoute] no contradiction on my end...yours yes...how can one jew or gentile sin without law...or be citizen of a LAWLESS COMMONWEALTH?

Which makes you a Jew.

being grafted INTO HIM? LOL..in Him there is NO JEW especially since they reject Him...Joined into citizen of Israel? A jew? Abraham was NOT a jew...there were more than just jews in israel and even in the ekklesia in the wilderness there were believing strangers who were given the Sabbath...the only commandment to list them as beneficiaries by PROMISE

It was a shadow, Clefty.

you keep saying...Paul did NOT...Nor did Hebrews...Here are they keeping what destroyed law? The faith of Yahushua except Sabbath? LOL

It 'sounds' like you read WAY more O.T. than New and consequently, pay much less attention to the New Testament. It makes you a functional Jew. Try to get/keep Salvation that way? Galatians says it is 'foolish.' Do you READ the New Testament? Did you stop? What in the wide world is going on?

Hey jews were teaching one had to be circumcised to be saved...that was silly too...Law never saved...duh...but once saved we are MORE LIKE HIM less like the world or our former selves...the Law remains to remind us if we are getting warmer or colder...

You really are childish. All this simply to display your horticultural prowess. There is a LOT of pride going on in your conversation. You entered with it and are maintaining it. Analogy isn't supposed to rabbit trail into the meaningless.

lol...just cuz you wrong about apple tree growing figs does not make an analogy meaningless...Paul was right to use grafting as the grafted branch must be closer to the fruit of the trunk and root not further...but there you are trying so hard to be different than the fruit trunk you are a nut...a hard one too...LOL

Because you are taking analogy to endth degrees to try to assert? Is that what you call 'neat?' :think: You really are a child and argue/reason like one.

Child trying to please a parent walk in his shadow trying on his clothes...lest ye become like a child...unlike you just teenage rebellion all about to hell with rules or NOT FOR ME...

You are still under the impression that man needs to 'rest.'

do you even pay attention? I even showed the grace of Sabbath given BEFORE the fall...Adam’s first full day was a day of rest...he didnt need it...YET...such grace

It is true that we have many 'sabbaths' and it is built in.

SO WHY YOU FIGHTING IT? Yes add to the weekly that there are other annual Sabbaths in His calander...yours would be rejecting those days off

What you fail to understand is that simply taking off one day a week is not something that fulfills one of the 10. Rest is about renewal and is made 'for' man. You've somehow managed to make something that we have to have/do, into a command like "Command 11: Breath air!" "Command 12: Drink 8 glasses of water!"

how about as a little reminder of what it was like WITH HIM in the garden...Where I am there is a Sabbath...we dont make it Holy we cant keep it Holy...it does that to us...

You said the Sabbath, for you, was ' day to rest,' a little self-indulgence. A day to be selfish and 'take care of me for a change.' At least, that is what you defended. I'm fairly certain you don't know why it was one of 10 commands. It was a day, in a week full of hard work, to put one's mind upon God. You don't have to work 24/6 in wheat fields today and most people have both Saturday and Sunday off, so no problem.

you waving a cane around ranting like that? LOL the irony of you telling me I am projecting...

Rather, the New Testament says "whether you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God'

really? Whatever you do? Worshipping Him with false worship like a golden calf is bringing glory? Or willfulling NOT doing His Will?

and "Pray without ceasing."

that doesnt abrogate the seventh day Holy...

Nobody stuck on literal one day observance by Law is going to catch the significance of living in the spirit and so I long for you to grasp walking by the Spirit (and you will NOT fulfill the desires of the flesh).

duh...because the Spirit being His Spirit will have us fulfilling the Law as it will compel our circumcised hearts and inner jew minds to follow Him His WAY...

Ephesians 2:10 says we were recreated for 'good' works, not simply avoiding the bad ones.

right Yah prepared before hand that we should walk in them...so did He prepare works AGAINST His Law for us to do before we were born? Without a Law how do we know what is good of Him and not? His Workmanship has us NOT do His will?

:nono: Short-sighted. It is all you can see, and you do not see far enough, thus your assessment is short, wrong.

from the beginning...Sabbath...before sin a Law to be added...until into the future when Isaiah says one day ALL will worship Sabbath to Sabbath...not very short at all...Sabbath a sign of His People His Covenant a memorial to Creation release from Egypt and the faith OF Yahushua...

Show me where it does not. "Take Peter, eat. Do not call unclean, what I have called clean."

Peter interpreted the vision not ONCE but TWICE as the goyim are NOW CLEAN to teach and NOT “we can eat dogs now...or cats bats and wombats”...

Not strangling a swine and bleeding it out does NOT make it clean meant...

True. Galatians 5:18 "If you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT UNDER the Law..."

led by the Spirit does NOT mean the Law is abolished...it means the Spirit is leading you IN KEEPING IT...or you think it is leading you to break it?

Romans 8:1,14

right...NO comndenaton because being in Jesus there is no more law? or you are NOT condemned for failing? And being led by the Spirit one is led into breaking the Law or NOT fulfilling His Will?

You would divide His kingdom like that...Son vs Father...Spirit vs Himself?

Just because you don't understand something, is not a reason to lash out against it. First grasp what someone is saying, especially if it is scriptures they are telling you...

if the Law is done away with WHY THE CONSTANT ENCOURAGEMENT TO BE IN CHRIST WALK IN THE SPIRIT...Law is gone...condemnation is too...do whatever whenever...

If the Law can be done away with why not remove it before the Son had to die? Remove it and no more sin is pointed out...

I do.

no you don’t you hold on to man’s tradition not Him His Ways...

You, however, in judgement, don't fear Him as you should. You are too free with your judgments and do seem to think you follow all the O.T. laws better than others. Question: Can someone, a regenerate New Creation; not want to please God?

by their fruits...show me someone who claims they are regenerate but then lies or steals willfully...and yet claims they want to please God...by their fruits...

Is why Yahushua even said “do what they teach from Moses seat but no what they do” cuz they didnt do what they teach...

Paul even wrote of the circumcised who did NOT keep the other laws...

I worry, genuinely, when someone says stuff like you do; if they are a new creation, this conversation just doesn't take place. There is no, 'follow Christ' but rather encouragement. 2 Corinthians 13:5

your fruits will reveal...I am encouraging you toloow Christ...you need Him...as the Law remains to point out sin...

Hasty clumsy knee-jerk assessment. You simply aren't listening. If it were Christ's doctrine, there is no need for this. If it is Clefty's? Of course, expected. One is in the flesh, the other is seeking Him. You don't do theology conversations well. You are way too threatened by what Clefty thinks vs. what is true in scripture Scripture takes care of itself. I'm not at all threatened about someone says wrongly about scripture. They simply need 1) the Spirit and 2) to reread it and be corrected. You, Clefty, need to be corrected.

all this because I said you follow what jews claimed poor Stephen preached that Jesus changed the customs Moses delivered...which was FALSE WITNESS as Stephen did NOT teach that...

In what sense are you God? My scripture ALSO says that I'm made (for one so not any kind of 'god' in that sense - means I GREATLY qualify 'ye are gods') and it says I'm like the grass and flowers that fade. So, in what 'sense' am I compared to God Almighty?

we are in His Image...are behaviors included...made to judge and live forever...not IMMORTAL but dependent on the tree of life...

More importantly, how close are we on scriptural qualifiers of that? Would you reckon we 'should' be pretty close? I generally believe that 'ye are gods' is relational and that our 'godliness' is rather in whatever manner 1) we are His, and 2) as limited creations,

right the closer we are to Him the more like Him we become...we become His because His makes us LIKE HIM...until we reflect more and more the character of Him

whatever reflection we are of Him with His values and characteristics including love and holiness etc.

YES BINGO...HIS LOVE HIS HOLINESS BECOMES OURS we are restored...as it was in EDEN where there was NO TEMPLE and YET THE LAW ITS SABBATH...in Eden there was no killing, no stealing, no lying, no adultery etc...until there was...

And in the future new heaven and new earth there will again be NO TEMPLE and yet a tree of life...and we will be restored...and like Him...and He alone as God, no images, His Name not in vain, elders honored, no killing, no adultery, no lying, no coveting...hmmmm miss anything? Oh yeah the seventh day Sabbath will be kept...as we will work and the rest...

Same thing.

no you said dont judge...do not judge lest ye be judged is NOT the same thing...

Right, so if I can tell, even in a conversation on the internet, that you don't seem to have a lot of love for me (for instance) then I can surmise you don't keep any of the O.T. commandments as well as you think.

now now...my love is correction...love Yah...your neighbor as your self...I am not expecting anything outside of OT or NT...or what I expect of myself...to Love AS HE DID...even my enemies...you? LOL

The grace? On my side of the doctrine, that it doesn't matter as much as how well you know Him. Forgiveness is by faith. Salvation is by faith. We simply need to rely on the work of Christ. 1 John 4:19 We learn love, by BEING loved. It is why Paul said to 'follow his example as he followed Christ."

Grace is WHY we desire to PLEASE and OBEY HIM HIS WAY...because HE loved us a specific what NOT LIKE THE WORLD...DO THAT by faith and you will fulfill the Law...not destroy it...

You cannot 'Sabbath' your way into the Kingdom.

duh...but it is by faith...but once you are in the kingdom...you will Sabbath...as it remains for His people Heb 4:9 ask Isaiah...

The defense of all who were told to depart was "I never knew you." Their defense? "Didn't we...?" They may have 'thought' they kept the commandments, but it didn't boil down to that.

its not “LORD LORD but those thatdo the will of my Father” “depart from ME you who practice LAWLESSNESS” now what was that about the Law no more?

It simply boiled down to whether or not the Lord Jesus Christ 'knew them' (knows us).

yes like the Galatians KEEPING TORAH were now KNOWN by Yah and Paul was concerned they were going back to their own calendar and customs...as they could NOT return to something they NEVER DID...they were NOT returning to Torah but their own weak and beggarly elements...to bondage...Paul would not call TORAH any of that...

Thus, if any man is in Christ, he/she IS a new creation. There is no 'loving like a Muslim/Buddhist' (not to say that Muslim's don't love, simply that it is limited without Christ). You have weird dichotomies in your theology that aren't true.

yea IN CHRIST fulfilling the STILL BINDING LAW...free form condemnation as they wer loving as He loved...thus fulfilling and NOT UNDER the Law...Buddhist can LOVE but NOT AS HE LOVED...as then they would no longer be Buddhists but following Him His WAY...

Scripture. Right now, just assertions and you give very few scriptures in your defense. The problem, as I said, is that Clefty (and Lon) is a nobody. Without scripture, there is simply no weight. No impetus even to listen. It is just Clefty's opinion and I already question that.

you don’t recognize we are to beware wolves false teachings throw out offenders to Satan that they might be saved? Do you ever read the NT?

You already forgot? I asked about commands. Immediately after that sermon to the 12, He said He gave a new command: to love one another. Look it up instead of making it up.

A new commandment by quoting the OT? Even John admits it is not a new commandment but one from the beginning...

Yes they do. You may have played, but you never paid attention. I've been a football coach. Is it so hard simply to say "I was wrong?" How arrogant and prideful are you? They play less time, their extra points are different, etc.

I WAS WRONG...lol...so hard to say...didnt expect you were talking about the 9-12 year olds...thought you were referring to H.S. and College...where JV plays WITH VARSITY...

In light of our discussion I do enjoy this JV rule

4. ONECOACHPERTEAMWILLBEALLOWEDONTHEFIELDATALL TIMES TO GIVE INSTRUCTIONS TO PLAYERS IN THE GAME. ONE (1) COACH FOR OFFENSE & ONE (1) COACH FOR DEFENSE WILL BE PERMITTED. COACHES SHOULD NOT POSITION PLAYERS. CALL THE OFFENSIVE PLAY OR DEFENSIVE FORMATION AND LET THE PLAYERS REACT NORMALLY.

But again I was wrong there are some rule changes...but I didnt think you were referring to 9-12 year olds probably like I dont consider an infant baptized a follower of Yah...

:nono: They are not ad hominems, or attacks on your character. They are accurate assessments of you. directly pertaining to your grasp and debate. You are a child. It means you are clearly immature. It isn't a judgement, there is no 'penalty' for it. It is supposed to give you feedback and should, eventually, assist you in doing much better.

oh ok thanks coach but from where I am reading the rule book...don’t think I wanna play on your team...this game is too good to take shortcuts...I want discipline workouts practice and more understanding of rare and obscure rules like this:

https://youtu.be/5ZgICeN3Oc8

See? Rule protect the game...MAKE IT BETTER...and you just wanna through ‘em out...

Or something like this: “no need to keep them rules...there was once a player that fulfilled all of them...so well we dont need to...cuz he threw the rule book away”...LOL

:sigh: Scriptures, please. David did. Paul? Show.

Romans 7:22 For I DELIGHT in the law of Yah according to the inward man...the spiritual man...you know the inner jew with circumcised heart...

Oh and verse 25 “I thank Yah though Yahushua our Lord so then with the mind I myself serve the Law of Yah...”

The "Law" wasn't mentioned. You made that part up. It was simply "His" yoke.

what do you think a yoke is? It has a specific purpose for a specific master of that cow...you protest “oh no that is all changed” or cuz you real MAD “that’s NOT FOR ME”

Again, assessment: You are immature and inaccurate on this. It means 'wrong.' Sorry, try again. You are a child and need to grow up.

right coach no drills today? No white board plays? Just whatever again?

1) I don't care.[/quote and you lie...and not just about this or not caring just about grammar

2) It was an example of pettiness, I am not. I didn't/ don't care about what you did wrong as far as a type-o. This is an occupation of simpler minds, not mine. Type-o's are not an occassion for one-upping another except 1) one who is a grammarian and tenacious about it 2) as a petty one-up-manship 3) as an irony against one who does this sort of thing.

Your another gospel another christ is exactly why I didnt capitalize as it is not of Christ...and yet you strain a gnat swallowing a camel...typical

Wow this did get long...hope someone reads it...if not thanks for the practice...not my coach...your game is NOT His

 

[clefty]

I read through Galatians again last night. It explains all of this very well. Do you ever read it?

asked and answered...my post at #126 but you ignored or avoided it then...why should now be any different?

What did you ignore or avoid last night when you read Galatians again?...

you prolly missed this last night...right out of the gate...”Paul an apostle”...of what? The good news gospel that the Law was dead...we can cease seventh day Sabbaths off and finally eat cat bats and wombats?

Or that One the Hope of Israel was resurrected and NOT just to the jews...

verse 3 you prolly missed this too...”GRACE to you”...WHY GRACE if the law was DEAD...destroyed...if so there is NO NEED for grace...4 “Who gave Himself for our sins”...See? NOT Who destroyed the law so we no longer have it point out our sins...”that He might deliver us from this present evil age”...hmmmm if what points out evil is dead or destroyed what then is evil? Why do any need deliverance? The Law is dead no? Nailed to the cross...or?

Continuing Gal 1 Paul then warns of another gospel and of some who trouble to pervert...I know exactly which perverted another gospel pleases man...that which claims the Law is dead, done, away with, changed...but Paul insists he seeks NOT to please men but to serve Christ...Him His Way as He taught and demonstrated...

Yup your man pleasing another gospel remains the same false witness of Jews who claimed poor Stephen taught Yahushua changed the customs Moses delivered...Luke is CLEAR if Stephen was teaching that the Law was dead it would NOT be a false witness...Acts 6:13-14

I could give a care less (means I really can even put you on iggy for as arrogant and scripturally illiterate as you are, with the audacity to try and assert from that ignorant perspective. I'm MUCH better educated in scriptures than you. You? Arrogant with your little tiny bit of understanding. GREAT, I can put you on ignore. I'm not here for your amusement. I'm here to discuss scriptures as they stand. If they pull in a direction I somehow missed? Great, one day they'll make and mold me. You? You don't understand planting and watering and think you are the Holy Spirit and master teacher of apparently everybody. I could give a care less of what you 'think' about your prowess. I KNOW what it is. Grow. Up. It's biblical. Ephesians 4:13-15 Your problem is you are ONLY interested in what YOU want to be interested in concerning scriptures. Have at it.

ummm...wow...so what is “the faith OF the Son of God?” Islam? “What is the knowledge OF the Son of God” but to do His Father’w Will? “To a perfect man” according to WHAT standard if the Law is gone? “To the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ”...seems like we should make a comparison list of similarities and differences between Him and us...to see how we measure up to Him and His teachings and ways...as He demonstrated for us to follow...

“...may grow up in ALL things INTO Him who is the Head-Christ” would be an odd and dysfunctional body if it did contrary the Head’s desire NO? I mean growing INTO Him means we do NOT have a Law? Nothing written in our circumcised hearts and inner jew minds? I mean He was a jew yes?

He even instructed prayers be said that the Sabbath be kept in the future times of trouble...notice how He did not instruct prayers be said that any be spared from trouble (raptured) but that the Sabbath be kept...oh and He intended winter times to continue as well...Matt 24:20

Yeah I think the growing up into the fullness of INTO Christ is to “follow Me love as I do”...JUST AS

No, I do not, attempted judge of me. YOU need to grow up, little boy. You are a spiritual midget and I'm not saying this to be mean, but the way you do theology debate is a "theology fight" like a child. You've a TON of growing up to do. Start doing it. You are about the worst keeper of the LAW or anything scripture and you do not know it nearly as well as you duped yourself to believe. You are in desperate need of remedial work and don't even know Galatians. Do you have ANY of it memorized by heart? When is the last time you read through it? Its a small book. Read it, Clefty.

oh my...you ARE triggered...as for Galatians...sure I read it...Why did Peter compel gentiles to live like Jews? If he himself was gonna be a hypocrite...Paul affirms Peter and Paul were Jews by NATURE not sinners and KNOWING that a man IS NOT justified by the works of the Law...because that was clear already in the OT...Abraham by FAITH read Heb 11...

Verse 17 “but IF while we seek to be justified by Christ we ourselves ALSO are found sinners” WAIT WUT?! Christ did away with the Law how can it point out sin? “...is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly NOT!” Because the Law remains to show Paul that if 18 he builds again what he destroyed by faith, he is a trangressor...as the Law remains to point that out...

Verse 19 “For I through the Law died TO THE LAW” See? by Law HE died NOT THE LAW...Law remains but does not give/bring righteousness...It just remains to point out sin...and our need for Yah’s GRACE...for if it was dead we would NOT NEED GRACE...

and IF the Law could be removed or destroyed why not BEFORE Christ had to die? Was it in vain?

Do you read your Bible? What does it say Jesus abolished?

asked and already answered but ignored and avoided...typical of you...

But again...what was destroyed was the wall between jew and gentile the enmity AGAINST GENTILES making ONE NEW MAN from the jew and gentile...is why later Paul affirms gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners but fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel...

so is Israel LAWLESS? Is this household of God at best an apartheid state with TWO LAWS and at worst ANARCHY? do what thou whilst? Certainly NOT... impossible...He is NOT a God of confusion...but with the MIND OF CHRIST and the GUIDANCE OF THE SPIRIT WE ARE LED INTO KEEPING HIS WILL and COMMANDMENTS...think like an “inner jew” ok?

Read Matthew 5:17

Ok...TWICE He says destroy is NOT what He came to do...so don’t think that...just like when I fulfill the traffic law traveling the speed limit I do NOT destroy the traffic laws for the driver behind me...duh

But you insist to think He did come to destroy...DO NOT

He then assures us that until heaven and earth pass away (THEY HAVE NOT) one little jot or tittle will by NO MEANS pass from the Law until ALL is fulfilled...is all fulfilled? NO...

You make Him a liar...

He continue with those who break one of the least and teach others to break them too are the least of the kingdom...OUCH! look up what that means...

THEN Ephesians 2:8-22,

yup saved by GRACE...once gentiles foreigners aliens but NOW IN CHRIST they are citizens of the commonwealth of ISRAEL...just like in the OT when it was one LAW for NATIVE and FOREIGNER ALIKE...

why? because UNLIKE YOU these gentiles are GRATEFUL to be saved AND WANT to keep the House Rules of their Savior’s Father...duh...and they don’t seek to shirk chores or ignore tasks or claim “NOT FOR ME”...that doesnt even work in a secular house...or country...

Yup ONE NEW MAN has be made of two...and joined into a HOLY TEMPLE made from believing jews and believing gentiles...

HalleluYah...

Is why He said Sabbath was made for MAN not just jews...or you saying He lying?...

Romans 3:21-24

maybe read slower? 21“The righteousness of Yah apart from the Law is revealed”...Law is apart NOT DESTROYED...”being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets”...hmmmm the Law seems “alive” even “witnessing” and NOT “dead”...22”even the righteousness of Yah which is through faith in Yahushua to ALL and on ALL who believe. For there is no difference.” Between jew or gentile...
23 “for ALL have sinned” not just jews with their done away Law...

Again...how could these Romans Paul is writing to even sin IF the Law was done away with? And don’t get so MAD and claim it was NOT for the Romans or gentiles or you...you are in His House remember?

24 “justified FREELY by His grace through the redemption” (from what? the destroyed Law that no longer points out sin? OR redeemed from His WRATH to the transgression of the STILL BINDING LAW?) “that is in Yahushua”...

Yup and redeemed from HIS WRATH by Him Who was sent, these gentiles WANTED to remain in His House...unlike you they desire to PLEASE HIM HIS WAY...not shirk or twist or pervert with another “there is no law, no rules, not for me, you shall not surely die” gospel...sound familiar? The wages of sin remain death...

You are self-projecting. YOU are the fighting man and readily jumped in this thread, purposefully, to continue champion your crusade.

My crusade? He states clearly My Sabbaths...He made Holy...My sign to His people...it’s not my crusade but him trying to make YOU Holy...your another christ another gospel is jewish false witness that He changed the customs Moses delivered...

Think NOT!

Sabbath is actually grace given before the Fall...before the Law was revealed...before the first ordnance directed at you was destroyed by Him...

Problem? Like any hothead, you did so half loaded. Your scripture knowledge is dismal and you need to be asking questions, lots of them, before running off pulling triggers. You are that man.

You make even Isaiah a liar as he prophecied from New Moon to New Moon and Sabbath to Sabbath all will worship...except you claiming all that was done away with...

Again, half-cocked. So and what?

SO Sabbath is to all man...as it was even given to the stranger believing with Israel...and WHAT? Well...He did instruct follow Me if you love Me which means into the Sabbatismos of Heb 4:9

It doesn't mean anything, except to a Jew.

actually a jew NOW argues exactly as you do...and rejecting the stranger the sabbath NOW is JUST FOR THEM...LOL ask the satanic Zionist noahides you agree with...

Try as hard as you might, we are not Judaised.

you still miss what the men from Jerusalem were expecting the gentiles to do...be circumcised TO BE saved...WHICH WAS NEVER TAUGHT IN THE OT as circumscision does NOT save...as it is done to you as an infant...is why most even now reject infant baptism too

It is as simple as the grafted branch: a fig branch connected to an apple tree still produces 'figs.'

are figs even in the apple family? Fig is FICUS and Apple is MALUS...sorry NO MATCH...by their fruits you shall know them...

First you mix up His moral Law and now His biological law...His house rules AND His gardens...you are a HORRIBLE guest...adopted son by the Law of promise and inheritance...oh wait to you the LAW is done away with...

So 'which' day is it? Saturday? Cut to the chase: what does it matter? What if I started a work week on Wednesday when I first started working? Do I take Tuesdays off? What is YOUR point? What is it, that you think will please God? What is it that you think will not? You are so caught up in this thin veneer of 'obedience' that you miss scriptures and spiritual principles, then run off thinking 'you've got it!' when you missed it. Jesus said no man builds a house until he knows if he has ALL the materials.

like a child trying on his fathers clothes they dont fit yet...but it pleases him that his child would try...

There is a parable about the blackbird, that builds a globe nest, who tries teaching the rest of the birds how. They kept saying "Oh, we know that!" so the blackbird told them to go build their own nests and so few birds build a globular nest, but a dish.

LOL..yup some bird brains think they follow instructions but clearly don’t...He went to the synagogues on the Sabbath as was His custom...sadly I would be thrown out of synagogues today...by jews thinking like you...that He changed the customs Moses delivered...

Your theology is half-made and half-preached. You think jot and tiddle means "Old Testament" and forget the New Testament is a LOT of red-letters - God teaching directly! Those you skip to your own demise.

The red letters that say “do as they teach from Moses seat”? I dont see any that say Sabbath was done away with...no longer Holy...

So? Many of the 10 commandments are universal

MANY? LOL...thanks for the concession...last I checked the 10 remain immutable and eternal for ALL...even the roman church catechism has them as unchangeable but like you they feel customs and traditions has them applied differently...LOL

So so far you teach like the false witness jews and Rome...

but you don't sacrifice for sin offering.

right...despite the still binding Law that points out our need for atONEment still...Heb 10:1-10 shows sacrifices of bulls and goats could NOT perfect or take away sin...but He His is sufficient...

And like between temples when even jews did not sacrifice but with their lips...sacrifices purifications and the administration and ministry of the Immutable law has been transferred

AND NOW to a New High Priest...SAME LAW including the Sabbath remains...whichs point out our need for Him His ministering for our behalf...because we still sin...Even Paul admits he did NOT do what he loved and did what he hated...

As the scripture itself says: It was a shadow fulfilled in Jesus Christ (read Galatians).

Paul was clear in Colossians “these ARE shadows of good things to come” still to come...Heb 8:5 affirms even after the cross there are STILL priests serving the copy and shadow of the heavenly things...of the STILL binding law and Heb 10:1 affirms the still binding law is HAVING and NOT having HAD a shadow of the good things to come...STILL to come...even after the DBR and ascension of Yahushua...prolly why He expected Sabbath times to continue into the future...oh and winter times too...Matt 24:20

Yup these ARE a shadow and not WAS past tense...got it?

The Law was a 'trainer' NOT the standard.

oh you mean like a tutor? AGAIN the tutor teaches you 2+2=4 do you change that when you graduate and go out into the real world? Do you really change the laws of math now too? Contrary to what your tutor taught? You free bird what a rebel easy rider!

It was a place holder for Salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ.

it NEVER SAVED...it was not designed to do that but pointed out sin and a need for Salvation...faith saved...grateful they obeyed the Law...but actually like you most didnt LOL stiff necked or something

Good thing too, because you don't keep the law, if all of it is all about loving God and man. You'd keep the letter and miss the WHOLE intent of it.

the irony...so Paul lied when he says love fulfills the Law? You mean to say Paul meant love destroys the Law? Or loving JUST AS He loved you is doing His Fathers will as it was in the OT already

“Love Yah and your neighbor as yourself” in the OT...the rest is HOW to...not like the pagans or gentle Buddhists or charitable muslims or...but AS HE DID...DO THAT

You'd divorce your wife because 'Moses said I could.'

you sure bring that up a lot...and with it PROVE that Yahushua RESTORED the OT did NOT destroy it...LOL

That is the problem with trying to follow the letter instead of intent. The reason I don't break driving laws often,

OFTEN?...LOL

isn't because of the punishment, but because I care about people and the laws are made to try to keep people safe. There are times I've broken them (riding a motorcycle often cannot trip the light sensor, so it is allowed to go through a red light, if you have waited, observed, and can do so safely in my state).

yup you a easy riding rebel...

So what?

SO Sabbath instituted before sin...at Creation was even counted out before the Law was given at Sinai is what...Manna bread from Heaven...what grace...foreshadow of good things to come...get it? I am the bread of life from heaven...I give you rest seventh day rest...and to those that overcome Manna will be a reward Rev 2:17...what is the point of a Sabbath relic being an award or trophy if that Law was done away with?

READ Galatians.

ok so where were we? Chapter 3:6 “just as Abraham believed... 7 ...only those of FAITH are sons of Abraham...8...Yah would justify NATIONS by faith...” so not just jews with their now destroyed law but everyone BY FAITH

Verse 10 has cursed is not doing the Law 11 just live by faith which is an OT verse btw 12 but do this and live 13 Christ redeems us from the Law?...NOPE...from the CURSE of the Law...which PROVES it remains and when broken it becomes a ministry of death...even for gentiles...verse 14

Neato right?

It was a shadow to be fulfilled entirely in Christ.

it remains a shadow of good things to come STILL to come as it still remains...

It was the shadow,

it IS a shadow, present tense

Christ is the reality.

And He is part of the goodness STILL TO COME...

Did you NEVER read "Moses said, by I say" or "You heard it said (law) but I tell you?"

sure but I never added to the word that by this the customs Moses delivered was changed...jews did that of Stephen which Luke called false witness...as Stephen did not say He changed customs Moses delivered...

You are still chasing shadows...

chasing? Just seeing they point to good things to come...STILL

READ Galatians.

ok...where were we? Oh chapter 3:17 the law cannot annul the covenant made to Abraham...see? as it had NOTHING to do with inheritance but the PROMISE did...law was added because of sin...21 is that law against the Promise...nope only if a law could make righteous...but it cant

Ok the tutor part...which again 2+2=4 remains even after one is no longer under a tutor right?

But you claim faith in Him destroys the Law so what point the law of addition at all?

You are WRONG as putting on Christ 2+2=4 remains and is even for gentiles now...slave free male female and IN HIM

All are Abraham’s seed heirs according to promise...Abraham was NOT a jew btw...but he was male

galatians

LOL...the irony you answered this to my reminding you it was ONE LAW for Native and Foreigner alike in the OT...and NOW here in Galatians we just read again...

IN CHRIST...neither Jew nor Greek...all ONE...LOL

Both all One citizen of Israel...But to you His House is without Law...

You are stuck in shadows... Come into the light. Matthew 4:16

the irony that is an O.T. Scripture...and He began to preach REPENT...cuz the Law was going to be destroyed? Or because a Lawless kingdom was at hand? GOD FORBID

Ephesians 5:14

right! And walk circumspectly circumcised LOL...as the Law remains and points out evil everywhere...what is the Will of Lord? “Do my Fathers will”...hard to watch out for evil and do His will if that Light reveals NO LAW exists...

:nono: NOT for fellowship. That is your law-thumping take on scriptures, wrongly. It was given because it harmed them.

LOL...what harmed who...cats bats and wombats harmed who?

All connections, out of your head, that you 'think' necessarily have to be connected, the way YOU think they must be.

idols - Leviticus 17:8-9 "Say to them: 'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice and does not bring it to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting to sacrifice it to the LORD--that man must be cut off from his people.' " To guard carefully against idolatry, this command was interpreted by the Jews to prohibit eating any meat that had been offered in a prohibited manner. In Rev. 2:14, 20 the words of Jesus show agreement with that interpretation.

from sexual immorality - Leviticus 18:6-26 lists a wide range of sexually immoral activities and ends with, "The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things,"

from the meat of strangled animals - Leviticus 17:13,15 "Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, "Anyone, whether native-born or alien, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then he will be clean." These were interpreted by the Jews to prohibit eating the meat of strangled animals.

and from blood - Leviticus 17:10 "Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood--I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people."

There is your connections...

Is why James concluded the matter gentiles would continue to crowd synagogues to hear Moses preached EVERY SABBATH

It is deductive reasoning and it colors your entire understanding of scriptures. You, necessarily, will have to throw Ephesians, Galatians, and Romans out of your Bible. Instead, become an expert on Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians. You are missing it.

oh yeah?

Um, lying is listed as one you should not trample in the '10.' You know very well what you were 'trying' to do. You can't lie out of it. You were/are exactly this thin and immature.

LOL...you posted a text 1 Cor 5:17 which you thought DOES exist...it does not...and now accuse me of trampling a law you think does NOT exist...it DOES...

LOL...you are too much fun...

:nono: You are nobody's judge. You are nowhere near mature enough. Sorry. Romans 2 says to knock it off. You know your O.T. but are woefully behind in your New Testament grasp.

Romans 2? Verse 13? “For NOT the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the DOERS of the LAW will be justified.”

Looks like judgement standards INCLUDE a still binding Law...

Er, I can read Greek and a bit of Hebrew. It doesn't matter what 'mistranslations are out there.' I don't need second-hand information regarding this.

So you deny the Word in three languages...nice...a hat trick...trifecta...at least you are consistant...

All manufactured fears from your own head. It is nowhere near the context of this discussion, simply your manufactured dis-qualifiers (strawmen at this point with near (at least) zero comparative interest). Few who follow scripture read from these sources.

oh my...settle down...

You say to love is enough...that the Law is done away with...Matt 5:47 says even pagans greet each other 46 love those that love you even tax collectors do that... Luke 6:32 sinners also love those that love them...

His love is different...unique...love AS He did...JUST AS

:think: "Wrong?" "When the messenger gets it wrong?" :think:

:nono: Not a chance. In your limited mind? Sure. lain:

you done?

No, little child. You are arrogant and full of yourself. I don't care. It is about calling a spade a spade, accurately. I read between the lines quite well. It is evident and you are found wanting.

guess not...

Odd response to reminding you He demonstrated to you the lifestyle and teaching of the New Covenant prior His death...no changes after the death of a testator...and just like Adam’s covenant the first day was a Sabbath ...this New Covenant too began with a Sabbath rest...they hurried to bury Him as Sabbath approached...His resting in the tomb...and rising...come Sunday morning first fruits day...the tomb was discovered already empty...

Yet a fig tree continues producing figs. You are simply 'trying' to be a Jew. Read Galatians.

ummmm yes a fig to a fig...more similar the fruit of the branch is to the trunk the better the graft...yours are NOT similar to His fruit...

Chapter 4 the heir is like slave as a child learning his father’s house rules...guarded and with stewards until the time...but One born under the Law redeems those under the Law...AND NOT BY DESTROYING THE LAW...as if suddenly House Rules are done away with upon inheritance

Verse 8 but when these ancient proud people of Gaul did NOT know Yah they served their own calendar and gods but now after they have known Yah rather He KNOWS YOU because you Obey Him now...how is it you return to weak and beggarly elements...to be in bondage...Paul is NOT speaking of Torah but that they are returning to their own calendar and customs of Gaul...Just like 2 Kings 17 where nations feared the Lord and then still worshipped in their old ways...

We'll see if you can 'define' the Sabbath today. I don't believe you can. You still think it is a day of the week on a Julian calendar, right?

ask the jews who have been keeping their own throughout...it helps that the Julian was absorbed into the seven day week of the Gregorian without a missed weekday...christendom however remains split on when the new year starts or christmas or easter...one NOT wanting to wait for the jews “their” passover...but yes both calendars are 7 day week cycles and jews just keep calculating along...

:nono: Incorrect.

Eve DID add to the Word as you are doing here...no law = no curse...no penalty of sin and just like the lie in Eden you claim “thou shalt not surely die”...nice company you keep

Read again: Matthew 5:17

yup and yet you do think He came to destroy...as if He no longer was Lord of the Sabbath as well it was destroyed...what use a a Lord of London if London is destroyed...or the Lord of the rings when the rings are destroyed...

THEN Ephesians 2:8-22,

yup fellow citizens of Israel no longer aliens to the commonwealth of Israel but from the two ONE...joined into a holy temple...got it?

Romans 3:21-24

for all have sinned not just jews...unless of course the Law no longer is there to point out sin...

One would seem to contradict the other. Instead of reconciling, you simply try and cancel one out. :nono: Wrong answer.

no contradiction on my end...yours yes...how can one jew or gentile sin without law...or be citizen of a LAWLESS COMMONWEALTH?

Which makes you a Jew.

being grafted INTO HIM? LOL..in Him there is NO JEW especially since they reject Him...Joined into citizen of Israel? A jew? Abraham was NOT a jew...there were more than just jews in israel and even in the ekklesia in the wilderness there were believing strangers who were given the Sabbath...the only commandment to list them as beneficiaries by PROMISE

It was a shadow, Clefty.

you keep saying...Paul did NOT...Nor did Hebrews...John the revelatory wrote “Here are they keeping that destroyed law? And the faith of Yahushua except Sabbath?” LOL

It 'sounds' like you read WAY more O.T. than New and consequently, pay much less attention to the New Testament. It makes you a functional Jew. Try to get/keep Salvation that way? Galatians says it is 'foolish.' Do you READ the New Testament? Did you stop? What in the wide world is going on?

Hey jews were teaching one had to be circumcised to be saved...that was silly too...Law never saved...duh...but once we are saved we are to regenerate to be MORE LIKE HIM less like the world or our former selves...the Law remains to remind us if we are getting warmer or colder...

You really are childish. All this simply to display your horticultural prowess. There is a LOT of pride going on in your conversation. You entered with it and are maintaining it. Analogy isn't supposed to rabbit trail into the meaningless.

lol...just cuz you wrong about apple tree growing figs does not make an analogy meaningless...Paul was right to use grafting analogies as the grafted branch must be closer to the fruit of the trunk and root not further...but there you are trying so hard to be different from the fruit of the trunk you are a nut...a hard one too...LOL

Because you are taking analogy to endth degrees to try to assert? Is that what you call 'neat?' :think: You really are a child and argue/reason like one.

Child trying to please a parent walk in his shadow trying on his clothes...lest ye become like a child...unlike you the teenage rebel all about “to hell with rules” or “NOT FOR ME!”...because you’re really MAD

You are still under the impression that man needs to 'rest.'

do you even pay attention? I even showed the grace of Sabbath was given BEFORE the fall...Adam’s first full day was a day of rest...he didnt need it...YET...such grace

It is true that we have many 'sabbaths' and it is built in.

SO WHY YOU FIGHTING IT? THANKS for another concession...Yes add to the weekly Sabbaths that there are other annual Sabbaths in His calander...yours would be rejecting those days off too...

Talk about live more abundantly...all those parties? Given to citizens of ISRAEL...But NOOOOO...not for you...party pooper...LOL

What you fail to understand is that simply taking off one day a week is not something that fulfills one of the 10. Rest is about renewal and is made 'for' man. You've somehow managed to make something that we have to have/do, into a command like "Command 11: Breath air!" "Command 12: Drink 8 glasses of water!"

how about as a little reminder of what it was like WITH HIM in the garden...Where I AM there is a Sabbath...we dont make it Holy we cant keep it Holy...it does that to us...

You said the Sabbath, for you, was ' day to rest,' a little self-indulgence. A day to be selfish and 'take care of me for a change.' At least, that is what you defended. I'm fairly certain you don't know why it was one of 10 commands. It was a day, in a week full of hard work, to put one's mind upon God. You don't have to work 24/6 in wheat fields today and most people have both Saturday and Sunday off, so no problem.

you waving a cane around ranting like that? LOL the irony of you telling me I am projecting...

Rather, the New Testament says "whether you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God'

really? WHATEVER you do? Worshipping Him with false worship like a golden calf is bringing glory? Or willfulling NOT doing His Will?

and "Pray without ceasing."

that doesnt abrogate the seventh Holy day...

Nobody stuck on literal one day observance by Law is going to catch the significance of living in the spirit and so I long for you to grasp walking by the Spirit (and you will NOT fulfill the desires of the flesh).

duh...because the Spirit being His Spirit will have us fulfilling the Law as it will compel our circumcised hearts and inner jew minds to follow Him His WAY...MORE LIKE HIM less than the world and our former selves...

Ephesians 2:10 says we were recreated for 'good' works, not simply avoiding the bad ones.

right Yah prepared Sabbath before hand that we should walk and rest in them...or did He prepare works AGAINST His Law for us to do before we were born? Without a Law how do we know what is good or of Him and not? Or does His Workmanship have us NOT do His will?

:nono: Short-sighted. It is all you can see, and you do not see far enough, thus your assessment is short, wrong.

from the beginning...Sabbath...before sin a Law to be added...until into the future when Isaiah says one day ALL will worship Sabbath to Sabbath...not very short at all...Sabbath a sign of His People His Covenant a memorial to Creation and release from Egypt and the faith OF Yahushua...He IS a citizen of Israel BTW...its King...a ruler of its Law

Show me where it does not. "Take Peter, eat. Do not call unclean, what I have called clean."

Peter interpreted the vision not ONCE but TWICE as the goyim are NOW CLEAN to teach and NOT “we can eat dogs now...or cats bats and wombats”...

Oh and NOT strangling a swine and bleeding it out does NOT make it clean meat...

True. Galatians 5:18 "If you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT UNDER the Law..."

led by the Spirit does NOT mean the Law is abolished...it means the Spirit is leading you IN KEEPING IT...or you think it is leading you to break it?

Romans 8:1,14

right...NO comndenaton because being in Jesus there is no more law? or you are NOT condemned for failing? And being led by the Spirit one is led into breaking the Law or NOT fulfilling His Will?

You would divide His kingdom like that...Son vs Father...Spirit vs Himself?

Just because you don't understand something, is not a reason to lash out against it. First grasp what someone is saying, especially if it is scriptures they are telling you...

if the Law is done away with WHY THE CONSTANT ENCOURAGEMENT TO BE IN CHRIST WALK IN THE SPIRIT...Law is gone...thus condemnation is too...do whatever whenever...

If the Law can be done away with WHY NOT remove it BEFORE the Son had to die? Remove it and no more sin is pointed out...no need for Him to die...

I do.

no you don’t you hold on to man’s tradition not Him His Ways...

You, however, in judgement, don't fear Him as you should. You are too free with your judgments and do seem to think you follow all the O.T. laws better than others. Question: Can someone, a regenerate New Creation; not want to please God?

by their fruits...show me someone who claims they are regenerate but then lies or steals willfully...and yet claims they want to please God...by their fruits...

Is why Yahushua even said “do what they teach from Moses seat but not what they do” cuz they didnt do what they taught...

Paul even wrote of the circumcised who did NOT keep the other laws...

I worry, genuinely, when someone says stuff like you do; if they are a new creation, this conversation just doesn't take place. There is no, 'follow Christ' but rather encouragement. 2 Corinthians 13:5

your fruits will reveal...I am encouraging you to follow Christ...you need Him...as the Law remains to point out sin...His work is BEGUN in you to regenerate you FULLY to be MORE like Him...you know, do what He does...and will carry it on in you UPON completion until that final Day

Hasty clumsy knee-jerk assessment. You simply aren't listening. If it were Christ's doctrine, there is no need for this. If it is Clefty's? Of course, expected. One is in the flesh, the other is seeking Him. You don't do theology conversations well. You are way too threatened by what Clefty thinks vs. what is true in scripture Scripture takes care of itself. I'm not at all threatened about someone says wrongly about scripture. They simply need 1) the Spirit and 2) to reread it and be corrected. You, Clefty, need to be corrected.

all this because I said you follow what jews claimed poor Stephen preached that Jesus changed the customs Moses delivered...which was FALSE WITNESS as Stephen did NOT teach that...

In what sense are you God? My scripture ALSO says that I'm made (for one so not any kind of 'god' in that sense - means I GREATLY qualify 'ye are gods') and it says I'm like the grass and flowers that fade. So, in what 'sense' am I compared to God Almighty?

we are in His Image...our behaviors included...made to judge and live forever...not IMMORTAL but dependent on the tree of life...

More importantly, how close are we on scriptural qualifiers of that? Would you reckon we 'should' be pretty close? I generally believe that 'ye are gods' is relational and that our 'godliness' is rather in whatever manner 1) we are His, and 2) as limited creations,

right! the closer we are to Him the more like Him we become...we become His because His makes us LIKE HIM...until we reflect more and more the character of Him

whatever reflection we are of Him with His values and characteristics including love and holiness etc.

YES BINGO...HIS LOVE HIS HOLINESS BECOMES OURS we are restored...as it was in EDEN where there was NO TEMPLE and YET THE LAW ITS SABBATH...in Eden there was no killing, no stealing, no lying, no adultery etc...until there was...

And in the future new heaven and new earth there will again be NO TEMPLE and yet a tree of life...and we will be restored...and like Him...and He alone as God, no images, His Name not in vain, elders honored, no killing, no adultery, no lying, no coveting...hmmmm miss anything? Oh yeah the seventh day Sabbath will be kept...as we will work and then rest...

Same thing.

no you said dont judge...do not judge lest ye be judged is NOT the same thing...

Right, so if I can tell, even in a conversation on the internet, that you don't seem to have a lot of love for me (for instance) then I can surmise you don't keep any of the O.T. commandments as well as you think.

now now...my love is correction...love Yah...your neighbor as your self...I am not expecting anything outside of OT or NT...or what I expect of myself...to Love AS HE DID...even my enemies—->you? LOL

The grace? On my side of the doctrine, that it doesn't matter as much as how well you know Him. Forgiveness is by faith. Salvation is by faith. We simply need to rely on the work of Christ. 1 John 4:19 We learn love, by BEING loved. It is why Paul said to 'follow his example as he followed Christ."

Grace is WHY we desire to PLEASE and OBEY HIM HIS WAY...because HE loved us a specific WAY and NOT LIKE THE WORLD...DO THAT by faith and you will fulfill the Law...and not destroy it...

You cannot 'Sabbath' your way into the Kingdom.

duh...but it is by faith...but once you are in the kingdom...you will Sabbath...as it remains for His people Heb 4:9 ask Isaiah...

The defense of all who were told to depart was "I never knew you." Their defense? "Didn't we...?" They may have 'thought' they kept the commandments, but it didn't boil down to that.

its not “LORD LORD but those that DO the will of my Father” “depart from ME you who practice LAWLESSNESS” now what was that about the Law no more?

It simply boiled down to whether or not the Lord Jesus Christ 'knew them' (knows us).

yes like the Galatians KEEPING TORAH were now KNOWN by Yah and Paul was concerned they were going back to their own calendar and customs...as they could NOT return to something they NEVER DID...they were NOT returning to Torah but their own weak and beggarly elements...to bondage...Paul would not call TORAH any of that...

Thus, if any man is in Christ, he/she IS a new creation. There is no 'loving like a Muslim/Buddhist' (not to say that Muslim's don't love, simply that it is limited without Christ). You have weird dichotomies in your theology that aren't true.

yeah IN CHRIST fulfilling the STILL BINDING LAW...free form condemnation as they were loving as He loved...thus fulfilling and NOT UNDER the Law...Buddhist can LOVE but NOT AS HE LOVED...as then they would no longer be Buddhists but following Him His WAY...and not under the Law but led into fulfilling it...and NOT Buddhism...

Scripture. Right now, just assertions and you give very few scriptures in your defense. The problem, as I said, is that Clefty (and Lon) is a nobody. Without scripture, there is simply no weight. No impetus even to listen. It is just Clefty's opinion and I already question that.

you don’t recognize we are to beware wolves false teachings throw out offenders to Satan that they might be saved? Do you ever read the NT?

You already forgot? I asked about commands. Immediately after that sermon to the 12, He said He gave a new command: to love one another. Look it up instead of making it up.

A new commandment by quoting the OT? Even John admits it is not a new commandment but one from the beginning...

Yes they do. You may have played, but you never paid attention. I've been a football coach. Is it so hard simply to say "I was wrong?" How arrogant and prideful are you? They play less time, their extra points are different, etc.

I WAS WRONG...lol...oh my so hard to say...I just didn't expect you were talking about the 9-12 year olds...thought you were referring to H.S. and College...where JV actually plays WITH VARSITY...

In light of our discussion I do enjoy this JV rule

4. ONE COACH PER TEAM WILL BE ALLOWED ON THE FIELD AT ALL TIMES TO GIVE INSTRUCTIONS TO PLAYERS IN THE GAME. ONE (1) COACH FOR OFFENSE & ONE (1) COACH FOR DEFENSE WILL BE PERMITTED. COACHES SHOULD NOT POSITION PLAYERS. CALL THE OFFENSIVE PLAY OR DEFENSIVE FORMATION AND LET THE PLAYERS REACT NORMALLY.

But again I was wrong there are some rule changes...but I didnt think you were referring to 9-12 year olds...probably like I dont consider an infant baptized a follower of Yah...

:nono: They are not ad hominems, or attacks on your character. They are accurate assessments of you. directly pertaining to your grasp and debate. You are a child. It means you are clearly immature. It isn't a judgement, there is no 'penalty' for it. It is supposed to give you feedback and should, eventually, assist you in doing much better.

oh ok thanks coach but from where I am reading the rule book...I don’t think I wanna play on your team...this game is too good to take shortcuts...I want discipline workouts practice and more understanding of rare and obscure rules like this:

https://youtu.be/5ZgICeN3Oc8

See? Rules protect the game...MAKE IT BETTER...and you just wanna throw ‘em out...take short cuts...

Or something like this: “no need to keep them rules...there was once a player that fulfilled all of them...so well...we dont have to...cuz he nailed the rule book to the uprights”...LOL

Think about that next football game you watch...a rule book nailed to the uprights beyond any ladders reach...LOL...”no more rules kids”

:sigh: Scriptures, please. David did. Paul? Show.

Romans 7:22 For I DELIGHT in the law of Yah according to the inward man...the spiritual man...you know, the inner jew with circumcised heart...

Oh and verse 25 “I thank Yah through Yahushua our Lord so then with the mind I myself serve the Law of Yah...”

The "Law" wasn't mentioned. You made that part up. It was simply "His" yoke.

what do you think a yoke is? It has a specific purpose for a specific master of that cow...you protest “oh no that is all changed” or cuz you real MAD “that’s NOT FOR ME”

Again, assessment: You are immature and inaccurate on this. It means 'wrong.' Sorry, try again. You are a child and need to grow up.

right coach no drills today? No white board plays? Just whatever again?

1) I don't care.

NOTED...and yet you lie...and not just about this...

Look what you say here now:

2) It was an example of pettiness, I am not. I didn't/ don't care about what you did wrong as far as a type-o. This is an occupation of simpler minds, not mine. Type-o's are not an occassion for one-upping another except 1) one who is a grammarian and tenacious about it 2) as a petty one-up-manship 3) as an irony against one who does this sort of thing.

After having said this earlier about my “mistake” LOL

See, 'petty' would be mentioning something of your use of 'christ' here with a small c, as if He didn't mean anything to you. It is a mistake, likely, nothing for me to harp on, but you are too juvenile. If you belong to Him, He will correct this. If not, your spirit is mean, arrogant, incorrigible, and in need of Him. Whatever you 'think' you have in keeping the OT, you just aren't doing as good a job as you need to be doing to preach this kind of thing. The MAIN thing I'm seeing in thread is NOT the love of the Lord Jesus Christ but some childish adherence to laws, without actually walking the talk yourself. You are preaching one thing while ruining your message with your own poor behavior on TOL!

ended with silly head smacking emoji

Your another gospel another christ is exactly why I didnt capitalize as it is not of Christ...and yet you strain a gnat swallowing a camel...typical

Wow this did get long...hope someone reads it...if not...thanks for the practice...alas you’re not my coach...your “lawless” game is NOT His

I prefer His
HalleluYah

 

[Right Divider]

Matthew 5. If the Lord Jesus Christ did not fulfill the law, the requirements would still be ours, and we'd need to become Jews to 'try' to fulfill it. Here, simply explain your understanding of Matthew 5 as it relates to Jews and 'if' it relates to gentiles. I think it does. Show me it does too, or doesn't, as you understand it.

Please be more specific. I cannot figure out how you get that from Matthew 5.

 

[Lon]

asked and answered...my post at #126 but you ignored or avoided it then...why should now be any different?

What did you ignore or avoid last night when you read Galatians again?...

you prolly missed this last night...right out of the gate...”Paul an apostle”...of what? The good news gospel that the Law was dead...we can cease seventh day Sabbaths off and finally eat cat bats and wombats?

Or that One the Hope of Israel was resurrected and NOT just to the jews...

verse 3 you prolly missed this too...”GRACE to you”...WHY GRACE if the law was DEAD...destroyed...if so there is NO NEED for grace...4 “Who gave Himself for our sins”...See? NOT Who destroyed the law so we no longer have it point out our sins...”that He might deliver us from this present evil age”...hmmmm if what points out evil is dead or destroyed what then is evil? Why do any need deliverance? The Law is dead no? Nailed to the cross...or?

Continuing Gal 1 Paul then warns of another gospel and of some who trouble to pervert...I know exactly which perverted another gospel pleases man...that which claims the Law is dead, done, away with, changed...but Paul insists he seeks NOT to please men but to serve Christ...Him His Way as He taught and demonstrated...

Yup your man pleasing another gospel remains the same false witness of Jews who claimed poor Stephen taught Yahushua changed the customs Moses delivered...Luke is CLEAR if Stephen was teaching that the Law was dead it would NOT be a false witness...Acts 6:13-14

ummm...wow...so what is “the faith OF the Son of God?” Islam? “What is the knowledge OF the Son of God” but to do His Father’w Will? “To a perfect man” according to WHAT standard if the Law is gone? “To the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ”...seems like we should make a comparison list of similarities and differences between Him and us...to see how we measure up to Him and His teachings and ways...as He demonstrated for us to follow...

“...may grow up in ALL things INTO Him who is the Head-Christ” would be an odd and dysfunctional body if it did contrary the Head’s desire NO? I mean growing INTO Him means we do NOT have a Law? Nothing written in our circumcised hearts and inner jew minds? I mean He was a jew yes?

He even instructed prayers be said that the Sabbath be kept in the future times of trouble...notice how He did not instruct prayers be said that any be spared from trouble (raptured) but that the Sabbath be kept...oh and He intended winter times to continue as well...Matt 24:20

Yeah I think the growing up into the fullness of INTO Christ is to “follow Me love as I do”...JUST AS

Yet you cannot express love to another brother, who adamantly disagrees with you. Yeah, you aren't at the top of my list for mature instruction. You arearrogant (without the goods) and simply like thumping, wherever it might be. That ISN'T the mark. You are lost in the trees, cannot see the forest. Mean? :nono: It is just assessment,and it makes you mad. You get in HIS way. Go for it.


oh my...you ARE triggered...as for Galatians...sure I read it...Why did Peter compel gentiles to live like Jews? If he himself was gonna be a hypocrite...Paul affirms Peter and Paul were Jews by NATURE not sinners and KNOWING that a man IS NOT justified by the works of the Law...because that was clear already in the OT...Abraham by FAITH read Heb 11...

Verse 17 “but IF while we seek to be justified by Christ we ourselves ALSO are found sinners” WAIT WUT?! Christ did away with the Law how can it point out sin? “...is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly NOT!” Because the Law remains to show Paul that if 18 he builds again what he destroyed by faith, he is a trangressor...as the Law remains to point that out...

Verse 19 “For I through the Law died TO THE LAW” See? by Law HE died NOT THE LAW...Law remains but does not give/bring righteousness...It just remains to point out sin...and our need for Yah’s GRACE...for if it was dead we would NOT NEED GRACE...

and IF the Law could be removed or destroyed why not BEFORE Christ had to die? Was it in vain?

asked and already answered but ignored and avoided...typical of you...

You are arrogant enough to make such a bold (inaccurate) statement. YOU need introspection, arrogant child. I'm not being arrogant to say so, just assessing YOUR presentation in an accurate manner. You aren't that humble and you want to be everybody else's Lord. :nono: Try again. It is the YOU show where the Lord Jesus 'gets' to sit behind you and 'watch you go.' lain:

It is somewhat encouraging to see you engage scriptures and even coming up with one or two on your own. It has been lacking in your conversation by my count these last couple of posts. They are the only thing that matters.

But again...what was destroyed was the wall between jew and gentile the enmity AGAINST GENTILES making ONE NEW MAN from the jew and gentile...is why later Paul affirms gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners but fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel...

Yet YOU have no new man, just gentiles grafted in....

so is Israel LAWLESS? Is this household of God at best an apartheid state with TWO LAWS and at worst ANARCHY? do what thou whilst? Certainly NOT... impossible...He is NOT a God of confusion...but with the MIND OF CHRIST and the GUIDANCE OF THE SPIRIT WE ARE LED INTO KEEPING HIS WILL and COMMANDMENTS...think like an “inner jew” ok?

Fleshly Jew (born from Jewish parents)? Or Spiritual?

Ok...TWICE He says destroy is NOT what He came to do...so don’t think that...just like when I fulfill the traffic law traveling the speed limit I do NOT destroy the traffic laws for the driver behind me...duh

You do, however, abolish it. Your 'duh's' not-with-standing (at all, just more of your posturing and arrogance disguised as allegiance). You don't, in fact, observe the ten. You aren't 'honoring' your mother and father by being arrogant, shaming them. You don't love your brother, let alone your neighbor. You make stuff up in your head, then whether it is true or not, declare it as if it were, because it is important to you.... ALL the law and prophets are built on two rules, and as far as I'm seeing, failing on the second, which is disobedient thus hurting the first.

But you insist to think He did come to destroy...DO NOT

He then assures us that until heaven and earth pass away (THEY HAVE NOT) one little jot or tittle will by NO MEANS pass from the Law until ALL is fulfilled...is all fulfilled? NO...

You make Him a liar...

:nono: Just as above, you are in love with your thoughts more than your fellow man. It is why I worry. One walking by the Spirit is guided by Him and your fellow man MUST be a concern if He indwells you. A judgement? :nono: I'm not audacious. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only Judge. Rather, I'm telling you what I pray about.

He continue with those who break one of the least and teach others to break them too are the least of the kingdom...OUCH! look up what that means...

As I said, I'm convinced I'm more scripturally educated than you. I don't teach breaking the law, but as I also said, I'm positive I keep the Sabbath differently than you. Its you caught up in the flesh and your 'flesh' resting, as if that genuinely were the command. I strongly, adamantly disagree. The Sabbath is not an indulgence/renewal of the flesh. It is a Spiritual concern. We greatly disagree on this point and you cannot 1) beat an unspiritual person into obedience (the man without the Spirit 'cannot' understand the things of Him), nor 2) can you beat a spiritual person into obedience because he/she already desires it. You've admitted to not keeping all the commands. You 'think' at this point, you are sinning 'less' every day, but not on the important things. It is evident your love for your fellow man is in need of much work (why I say you are a child and immature etc. Is it mean? :nono: It is what I believe I actually am, in fact, seeing).

 

[Lon]

That is a complete non-sequitur with regard to what I asked about what you said.


Please explain this statement.

What does it even mean to "fulfill the law"?

I was meaning that Jesus was sinless, guiltless. Perhaps capitalizing 'Law' is the fault. Jesus 1) had to be sinless and perfect to be our Savior and 2) Had to fill our lack. Sin had kept us from God. That is about the extent of my meaning.

Please be more specific. I cannot figure out how you get that from Matthew 5.

Mat 5:20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ reckons us as surpassing the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. Without Christ, we couldn't be declared righteous. We rely wholly upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

Clefty, for instance, advocates a righteousness, becoming less sinful, by 'observing the Law.' Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

 

[clefty]

Yet you cannot express love to another brother,

what is taking the time to respond to your every post?...”For all Scripture is Yah breathed and is useful for” making friends, internet pals? making brothers feel good about themselves? NO but “for teaching rebuking correcting and training in righteousness”...

please note the irony here that the scripture Paul is referring to is the TORAH...the OT...as the NT was not yet scripture as you know it...

also it is obvious righteousness takes TRAINING as it is more than belief or faith...training in WHAT? An abolished Law?

Timothy even allowed himself to be circumcised by Paul...which TImothy knew 3:10 “but you have followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance...” Love actually only comes in 6 out of 9 in that list...

is why Paul continues with 2 Tim 4:2 “Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine”...Paul knew you and yours were coming with itching ears to turn away from the truth and accept fables...like jewish false witness that Jesus changed the customs Moses delivered.

To love and be all nicey nice is to love as the world loves...we however are to Love as He loved us which is to correct us...we ARE our brothers keepers after all

adamantly disagrees with you.

feel free...show your work...

Yeah, you aren't at the top of my list for mature instruction.

does explain the instruction you have been giving...

You are

here we go...

arrogant (without the goods) and simply like thumping, wherever it might be. That ISN'T the mark. You are lost in the trees, cannot see the forest. Mean? :nono: It is just assessment,and it makes you mad.

feel better? Perhaps the only reason you respond?

You get in HIS way. Go for it.

Is that what He told you?

oh my...you ARE triggered...as for Galatians...sure I read it...Why did Peter compel gentiles to live like Jews? If he himself was gonna be a hypocrite...Paul affirms Peter and Paul were Jews by NATURE not sinners and KNOWING that a man IS NOT justified by the works of the Law...because that was clear already in the OT...Abraham by FAITH read Heb 11...

Verse 17 “but IF while we seek to be justified by Christ we ourselves ALSO are found sinners” WAIT WUT?! Christ did away with the Law how can it point out sin? “...is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly NOT!” Because the Law remains to show Paul that if 18 he builds again what he destroyed by faith, he is a trangressor...as the Law remains to point that out...

Verse 19 “For I through the Law died TO THE LAW” See? by Law HE died NOT THE LAW...Law remains but does not give/bring righteousness...It just remains to point out sin...and our need for Yah’s GRACE...for if it was dead we would NOT NEED GRACE...

and IF the Law could be removed or destroyed why not BEFORE Christ had to die? Was it in vain?

This was my writing which you did not credit nor addressed...now you add sloppy posting to your avoidance and ad Homs...

You are arrogant enough to make such a bold (inaccurate) statement.

oh? Post #138 you claimed the Law was abolished...

Posts #139 and #144 when you asked again I responded what is abolished was the enmity the jews had against goyim contained in ordinances jews established against goyim...that middle wall between them which He broke down making one of the two...but you ignored or avoided it...

YOU need introspection, arrogant child. I'm not being arrogant to say so, just assessing YOUR presentation in an accurate manner. You aren't that humble and you want to be everybody else's Lord. :nono: Try again. It is the YOU show where the Lord Jesus 'gets' to sit behind you and 'watch you go.' lain:

again with the attacks on the messenger...can you focus on the message please?

It is somewhat encouraging to see you engage scriptures and even coming up with one or two on your own. It has been lacking in your conversation by my count these last couple of posts. They are the only thing that matters.

I reference scripture often...sorry I expect you to be so familiar to texts regarding this topic that citation is unnecessary...I mean must I cite John 3:16 to “For Yah so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son”? Now if I would include “But he who does the truth comes to the light that his seeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in Yah.” I would note verse 21 finished the teaching with the conclusion that what WE DO is also important not just what we believe or Whom we place our faith in...

Is why this discussion that what you teach “the Law is abolished” does not produce more similar fruit to His...

Yet YOU have no new man, just gentiles grafted in....

just cuz Israel is confirmed to expand and not just be jewish in no way minimizes that Yahushua is its King of Kings...its Lord of the Sabbath...and even jews will have to upgrade their citizenship and accept it was made for man...ALL MAN...Israel not just Sabbath...That’s what their King said...

Fleshly Jew (born from Jewish parents)? Or Spiritual?

of course not fleshy...FLESH PROFITS NOTHING...no material things do...no sacrifices no circumcision no Eucharist...it is all symbolic of the Spiritual realm...”for we know the law is Spiritual” Romans 7:14

So the HEART matters...is it circumcised? Is your inner jew observant to what is a shadow pointing to the good things still to come?

Just like He taught that what comes into a body does not make it unclean...but it is the ALREADY unclean heart which allows it into the body...

You do, however,

here we go...

abolish it. Your 'duh's' not-with-standing (at all, just more of your posturing and arrogance disguised as allegiance). You don't, in fact, observe the ten. You aren't 'honoring' your mother and father by being arrogant, shaming them. You don't love your brother, let alone your fneighbor. You make stuff up in your head, then whether it is true or not, declare it as if it were, because it is important to you....

feel better?

ALL the law and prophets are built on two rules, and as far as I'm seeing, failing on the second, which is disobedient thus hurting the first.

Love Yah and love your neighbor as yourself are already in the OT...the very thing you wish to abolish...and yet Yahushua upheld it, affirmed it, fulfilled it, and just like MARRIAGE restored it to its proper place...an eternal BINDING...

:nono: Just as above, you are in love with your thoughts more than your fellow man. It is why I worry.

no need...this worry is based on a false witness...you should worry more on your other false witness...the jewish one...that Jesus changed the customs of Moses...Acts 6:13-14

One walking by the Spirit is guided by Him and your fellow man MUST be a concern if He indwells you.

I am not spending this time or energy cuz I am bored...just teaching preaching correcting reproving fruits that do NOT match His...despite your claim you love Him...yet do NOT as He did...despite His asking you to...if you Love Him

A judgement? :nono: I'm not audacious. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only Judge. Rather, I'm telling you what I pray about.

thanks but maybe that is exactly why I am responding...your prayers...to be a good follower and to serve Him

As I said, I'm convinced I'm more scripturally educated than you.

I dont doubt you are convinced...your stubbornness is displayed

I don't teach breaking the law,

you do...even teach the law is broken...

but as I also said, I'm positive I keep the Sabbath differently than you.

Another concession...thanks...good...but why? Why even bother as you claim all that was done away with?

Its you caught up in the flesh and your 'flesh' resting, as if that genuinely were the command. I strongly, adamantly disagree. The Sabbath is not an indulgence/renewal of the flesh. It is a Spiritual concern.

oh boy...Romans 7:14 we know the law is spiritual...dont we? I mean Paul and the romans did...

and yet Sabbath was sweet sweet grace given even BEFORE the need of rest...before the curse of sin...its sweat inducing WORK...six daze...

Maybe you dont keep the work six days part either?

We greatly disagree on this point and you cannot 1) beat an unspiritual person into obedience (the man without the Spirit 'cannot' understand the things of Him), nor 2) can you beat a spiritual person into obedience because he/she already desires it.

right just as a coach you cant force a kid to practice especially if he don’t wanna play...prolly cuz he doesnt want to keep the rules...those rules...lol

But yes we are to be led by the Spirit into spiritual things...not away from MORE LIKE HIM not less

Because it is THY will be done ON EARTH as it is IN HEAVEN...Sabbath remains...ask Isaiah...New Moon to New Moon Sabbath to Sabbath...

“Do we then make VOID the law through faith? Certainly NOT! On the contrary WE ESTABLISH THE LAW” Romans 3:31

So which LAW is that? The Law of the commonwealth of Israel? of which you’re a citizen of a subject to your King Mr Lord of the Sabbath?...is why a Sabbatismos remains for His people...

Or the LAW of man his traditions whatever his itching ears makes him feel good...every day any day rest...a JesusRest cleverly devised so long ago by those wishing to change both times and law

You've admitted to not keeping all the commands.

Even Paul admitted as much...but we are to overcome...win the secret Manna...Rev 2:17...that relic from when Sabbaths were introduced to Israel in the desert

You 'think' at this point, you are sinning 'less' every day, but not on the important things. It is evident your love for your fellow man is in need of much work (why I say you are a child and immature etc. Is it mean? :nono: It is what I believe I actually am, in fact, seeing).

oh ok...thanks coach...now learn the rule book too...play by it...establish THAT on the field of your life...

“Here are they that keep the Commanmdments of Yah...and have the faith OF Yahushua...”

 

[Right Divider]

I was meaning that Jesus was sinless, guiltless. Perhaps capitalizing 'Law' is the fault. Jesus 1) had to be sinless and perfect to be our Savior and 2) Had to fill our lack. Sin had kept us from God. That is about the extent of my meaning.

So by "fulfill the law" you simply mean "kept the law"?

Many Jews kept the law, but they were not sinless.

Luk 1:5-6 KJV There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. (6) And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Mat 5:20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ reckons us as surpassing the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. Without Christ, we couldn't be declared righteous. We rely wholly upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

OK.

 

[clefty]

I was meaning that Jesus was sinless, guiltless. Perhaps capitalizing 'Law' is the fault. Jesus 1) had to be sinless and perfect to be our Savior and 2) Had to fill our lack. Sin had kept us from God. That is about the extent of my meaning.

Excuse me...

that is NOT the extent of your meaning...at all

You were quite clear that by “fulfill” you mean He abolished the OT and replaced it with a new...with new laws different than the old...

Talking about “when did you move to Israel?...” “no new wine into old wine skins” something something “new command Love one another”

(When it’s already in the OT)

You illustrated it with JV vs varsity...new rules/no rules Varsity?

Claiming Peter didn’t preach keeping the 10 while keeping Pentecost too LOL

You even said He broke the Sabbath which is a sin

Unless He meant to say we are one law less——>yeah that’s it

Mat 5:20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ reckons us as surpassing the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. Without Christ, we couldn't be declared righteous. We rely wholly upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

and He regenerates us into what? Being Lawless? Less like Him?

Not baring fruits like His?

NOT Loving as He loved ?

Clefty, for instance, advocates a righteousness, becoming less sinful, by 'observing the Law.' Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

False witness again

But understandable and expected as you teach the Law was done away with...

Nowhere do I advocate righteous works to become righteous but that since we claim to be His we ought to do works befitting repentance Acts 26:20

And do His works He prepared for us to do NOT man’s traditions

By faith...are we saved

Is why we WANT to follow Him JUST AS...bare fruits MORE like His

In Him we are not under the Law we are guided into fulfilling them by the Spirit...both jew and gentile IN HIM



Doing His works and wearing His yoke must be too hard for you as you don’t even finish Paul’s thought

Finish chapter 3

31 “Do we make void the law through faith? Certainly NOT! On the contrary we ESTABLISH the Law”

Please list which law from the 10 we do not need to establish...

Your “no more law” is another gospel of another christ...

 

[Gary K]

As far as 'days' they were simply reckoned with the calendar. A couple of months that year were shortened. It caught them up with a lunar rotation. Next, those who did not convert, kept to their days on their calendar which did not coincide with the Julian calendar (just like your birthday is on a different day, every year) except every few year where "Sabbath (in the case of Jews) incidentally fell on "Saturday." When Julians celebrated Saturday, the rest of the world not on the Julian calendar, celebrated a different day, every year (like your birthday) as a Sabbath or whatever. They would not have had the same 'weekends,' not until they converted except as they occasionally coincided. Whatever day they were on, simply became "Monday, Wednesday,Friday," etc. So if they were on a 'new day' when they converted to Julian, it became 'Thursday' or whatever that year. So, the Sabbath only every seven years or so (Jews shifted their calendar every few years as well, they were not hung up on a corresponding Sabbath, but likely celebrated two in a week that year), coincided with "Saturday" and another year on "Sunday" because they celebrated a 7 day week, like the Gregorian, but the number of days in the year 365 1/4, would have shifted differently with the Jewish which had fewer days in their yearly calendar. If you follow, regardless of succession of sun rising and setting for all of us, it was obviously different. In addition, as I said, think of the Jew today: In the U.S. He will celebrate in four days, in Australia, five (not the same day, though supposedly 'Saturday.'

I'm convinced you will get this. A Saturday worshipper? :nono: That person is bull-headed and cannot be bothered with basic math (sadly)

Your claim has been on this thread that the weekly cycle changed. I showed that to be impossible based upon the fact that one rotation of the earth on it's axis is one day. The evening and the morning were the.... The account of creation is very clear. And from that time onward there were always Sabbath keepers for God gave the Sabbath to Adam in the Garden of Eden before sin ever entered the earth.

The day of the week isn't not a calander date. Stop conflating those two things. That's a logical fallacy and you jolly well know it is. A Wednesday is a Wednesday no matter what year or month it is. A Saturday is a Saturday no matter what year or month it is. The Sunday through Saturday cycle isn't dependent on the yearly calendar cycles. Your argument is very similar to saying that because Thanksgiving falls on the 3rd Thursday of November it must fall on the very same date every year. The very fact that Thanksgiving falls on the same day of the week but the date changes every year shows the falsity of your argument.

The weekly cycle can be traced back through history through all the times that different cultures used different names for the days of the week, but the cycle never changed. It's always been the equivalent of our Sunday through Saturday cycle. The amount of fallacies you're using are incredible.

When I called you hard-headed you seem to have taken that as an insult. Let me tell you who I consider to have been hard-headed in the Bible. Jesus, Noah, Daniel, Paul, Elijah, Nathan, Peter, John, Stephen, John the Baptist, and that is only a partial list. If you consider being linked to that group of men an insult, well, you'll just have to be insulted as I don't know what to say. I consider them to be one and all hard-headed for they stuck to what they believed to be true no matter what the danger or the consequences. Now, I don't agree with some of the things you believe, but I see that you stick to what you believe with the same kind of tenacity. If that's insulting, well, I guess you'll just have to be insulted because that's how I see you: hard-headed in the same way all those men were hard-headed.

 

[Lon]

uh oh...someone was encouraged...

so this is why you lie now, steal worship from Him, kill the Spirit, worship with false worship? Makes sense...the Law for you is gone...abrogated...done away with...Spirit leads you into what? There is no law...how do you know sin? There is no law?

You make Paul a liar, Law still points out sin he delights in it and thanks Yah that through Christ he can serve the law...

You make Yahushua a liar, “think not” He instructed but you do...Sabbath was a Law He specifically expected to be kept long after He had ascended...”Pray” He instructed that it be kept as He intended Sabbath times to continue long into the future...oh and winter times too...or did He abolish that too?

So what was abolished? The enmity...which is contained and prescribed in ordinances...

You seem to be a fighting man...sort of...you realize the military word ordnance guns/ammunition is a variant of the word ordinance...being pointed at or shot directly at is a specific enmity...

We have federal law, state law, and then county city town village local ordinances...very specific detailed violations are tickets

Alcohol violations, curfew, drug, against person, public peace, school property, motor vehicle tickets...

All liable to give one a specific ticket with summary and further instructions...

So back to what the citizens of Ephesus were learning...jews had created added ordinances to separate themselves from gentiles like even adding a physical wall at the temple in jerusalem to keep non jews OUT...despite what the OT said about a house of prayer for ALL NATIONS...

All these were jewish enmity toward goyim (also refered to the Colossians as the handwritten requirements wiped clean) the ordinances the decrees, the regulations, social, dining, marital, etc which were abolished in His flesh making of the two, both jew and gentile, a new creation...a citizen of Israel...not lawless...holy just and good and remains according to Paul’s standard...The Law which still points out to sin for everybody...not just jews...

LOL...as if only jews sinned...





the irony the Sabbath was the only commandment given to ISRAEL and the mixed multitude which specifically lists the stranger who is to receive it...

You do realize the Sabbath was instituted long before Jews yes?

Is man and wife jewish? MARRIAGE...like the Sabbath was instituted at creation...not just for jews

Sabbath was even “counted out” prior to receiving the law with the falling of Manna...

And this heavenly bread did NOT fall on jews alone...but all 12 tribes and those believing goyim following from egypt

Over and over again ONE LAW for native and foreigner ALIKE

Sadly JUST LIKE YOU by the time Yahushua came around Jews thought it was all just for them...

He had to teach them otherwise...Paul too...Peter oh and James as he concluded the Jerusalem council in Act 15 with the expectations winters would continue...LOL...just kidding...James intended that the crowding goyim would keep hearing Moses preached every Sabbath...

Oh btw...4 things were IMMEDIATELY required for goyim to fellowship with jews...no sexual immorality no food offered to idols, no meat strangled or with blood...now do you suppose NOT strangling a swine or dog would make it appropriate for synagogue potlucks? Or draining all the blood makes clean cats bats and wombats...with magic hats?

ALL FOUR regulations were ALREADY listed in the OT for believing goyim to follow in order to hear Moses preached every Sabbath...



Hey you could just clarify be providing the correct text you wished to share...I merely offered what you might have intended as there was no 1 Cor 5:17

Let no man judge you...but the body of Christ...

https://www.cogwriter.com/news/churc...the-holy-days/

People who CANNOT read Hebrew or Greek use appeals to authority. :nono: Not for me. It is evident why it is for you.

choose ye this day Whom ye will serve...falsely?

You mix your scriptures to your own convenience and your theology is done in a blender for it.

as the pagan loves? The Buddhists? The muslims? He said love AS I have loved you...JUST AS...not with a new deviation cleverly manufactured by man’s traditions

when is the messenger attacked? when the message is what?...

You mean like you? When you can't bring one essential scripture to mind and make it up as you go.

what you are convinced of has been shown in error...yet again...

Lying? Can you read Greek and Hebrew? How many years of each? If none, then I was indeed, NOT in error and you lied. For what? Why do it? Whom do you serve if you have to 1) Never,rarely use scripture, 2)feign some sort of Greek or Hebrew prowess (which a) you've not demonstrated at ALL and b) are not functional to my assessment in it 3) Assert your way without scriptures and argue from your flesh, to keep laws you demonstrably (in this thread) are incapable of keeping. You didn't win a thing here. Sorry. I'm not impressed, not until you take a couple of classes in each.

feel better?...can we make it less about me maybe and back to Him His Way as He taught AND demonstrated the New Covenant way prior His death signing it with His blood and sealing it with His death...

You are projecting and simply saying it rolls off your back. Jaded is not one of the fruits of the Spirit. :nono:

and so by Law you are inheritors of the Promise...citizen of Israel...unless like some here even more MAD than you insiste it is NOT for them...something about being Lawless or something...

At least I read and know them. You? Look at your own work, not a scripture one, except where you engage mine. Somebody is interested in something else. It is why this conversation leaves me with praying for your spiritual work. :wave:

 

[Lon]

Excuse me...

that is NOT the extent of your meaning...at all

You were quite clear that by “fulfill” you mean He abolished the OT and replaced it with a new...with new laws different than the old...

Talking about “when did you move to Israel?...” “no new wine into old wine skins” something something “new command Love one another”

(When it’s already in the OT)

You illustrated it with JV vs varsity...new rules/no rules Varsity?

Claiming Peter didn’t preach keeping the 10 while keeping Pentecost too LOL

You even said He broke the Sabbath which is a sin

Unless He meant to say we are one law less——>yeah that’s it

No, stop. Ask, don't tell what is on another's mind.

and He regenerates us into what? Being Lawless? Less like Him?

Not baring fruits like His?

NOT Loving as He loved ?

Or giving you a day you can enjoy in your flesh as the 'meaning' of Sabbath.
Cut to the chase in thread for meaning:

1) What is it?
2) When is it? Is it "Saturday?"
3) What does it accomplish, what is it intended for?
4) Why observe it, as a command? Why observe it as 'made for man?'

False witness again

Not at all, you certainly do! Even now, just here:

Nowhere do I advocate righteous works to become righteous but that since we claim to be His we ought to do works befitting repentance Acts 26:20

No, you've been advocating the 10 as well as all the Laws of the Jews in thread. You advocate a righteousness THROUGH the Law. Ask anybody happening to read us. They will tell you that is clearly what you portray, if unintentional.

And do His works He prepared for us to do NOT man’s traditions

By faith...are we saved

It renders your whole entire work in this thread meaningless but good!

Is why we WANT to follow Him JUST AS...bare fruits MORE like His

In Him we are not under the Law we are guided into fulfilling them by the Spirit...both jew and gentile IN HIM

:doh:
The past few pages were just arguing to argue then?

Doing His works and wearing His yoke must be too hard for you as you don’t even finish Paul’s thought

"zing!" lain: The WAY you do debate is not godly as far as I grasp the scriptures. Why would anybody want to even talk to you, Clefty? Your Christianity has become one-upmanship and pride. You are doing that 'biting each other' thing Paul warns against.

Finish chapter 3

31 “Do we make void the law through faith? Certainly NOT! On the contrary we ESTABLISH the Law”

Right, you are starting to say some things I've said in thread. I think you just posture in exaggeration. Why? I 'think' because you just like verbal fights.

Please list which law from the 10 we do not need to establish...

Read your own sentences above. How many have you broken, in just this thread? If they are all based on love of God and love of man, have you been loving Him or me to date? YOU list which ones you actually keep?

Your “no more law” is another gospel of another christ...

Yes, the biblical one. The Good news isn't "Christ died so you could immaculately keep every law." The good news is Christ died to save sinners and I certainly was one. By Faith, I stand. Ephesians 2:8-10 Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

Are YOU a workmanship of Christ? If so, HE will make you into His image. In Hebrews 12, He disciplines those He loves, He guides His sheep, He give the Holy Spirit. That Spirit is NOT the Spirit of Buddhism or Muslim. It is the very Spirit of Christ. You are caught up in 'doing' rather than 'BEING.' Can someone who has His Spirit not follow? Will demands to follow the O.T. save that one? Think OFTEN before you speak. You don't do theology nicely or to His glory at present. You started off fighting and I'm leaving you off....fighting all by yourself.

 

[Lon]

Your claim has been on this thread that the weekly cycle changed. I showed that to be impossible based upon the fact that one rotation of the earth on it's axis is one day.

Days do not change. "Saturday" changes. Jews merely regarded a succession of 7 days. When the Julian calendar was adopted, those who did not convert didn't agree it was suddenly established, year to year, when they would celebrate any given day. The Julian calendar was arbitrary.

Cut to the chase: Do you believe that one must celebrate 'every Saturday' to keep a Sabbath? If not, the conversation doesn't matter. One of us just gets this math question wrong.

So, what is the basis of your argument today: What does it accomplish for Christ? Such is a lot better than arguing over trivialities. It is normally the Saturday worshipper that troubles the rest of the body with such concerns. Where is your position? Thanks.

 

[Right Divider]

People who CANNOT read Hebrew or Greek use appeals to authority. :nono: Not for me. It is evident why it is for you.

No offense Lon... but when you give us your translation of the Hebrew or Greek, you are appealing to yourself as an authority.

 

[Lon]

what is taking the time to respond to your every post?...”For all Scripture is Yah breathed and is useful for” making friends, internet pals? making brothers feel good about themselves? NO but “for teaching rebuking correcting and training in righteousness”...

So "tough" love is all you know. I can accept that, but you grew up in a weird family. In Bible College, there were 600 people that generally seemed to agree that love looked a little more like caring, we didn't get into spats nor correct harshly. A few Lord-it-over professors were dismissed. Teaching is a spiritual gift and some who don't have it, shouldn't be doing it....but I digress.

please note the irony here that the scripture Paul is referring to is the TORAH...the OT...as the NT was not yet scripture as you know it...

Tradition is fine, but it is nothing to base assertions upon. Peter was familiar with 'all of Paul's writings.' 2 Peter 3:16

also it is obvious righteousness takes TRAINING as it is more than belief or faith...training in WHAT? An abolished Law?

You can beat the hell of kids, or love the hell out of them. The O.T. called for a rod. Find a N.T. correlation? There are very few Covenantalists on the planet, most today are Dispensational and I went to a Dispensational college. One of my professors, however, was Covenantal and I've leaned that way most of my life. However, as a Covenentalist, I was always in fear of Hebrews 6:4 among other verses, that I could 'lose' my salvation, based solely off of Law infraction. Ephesians, especially, became a life ring for me. I was a 'good' kid, but I still wrestle[d] with those sins that so easily entangle. Hebrews 12 says to throw them off, and I do, but the world is always in our faces. One can hardly walk out the door without appeals to those temptations of the flesh: lust of the eyes, pride of life, arrogant and haughty spirit, etc. Reading through Hebrews one day, "Our forefathers" struck me. I wasn't Jewish. I didn't have those forefathers. There were a number of other references for other Jews and I put Hebrew 6 in context: They were sacrificing for their sins and the warning was against it: "There remains no other sacrifice for sins other than Christ." Clearly I'm not to do as Jews then nor now. There is something even Jews, converting to Christianity weren't supposed to do, REGARDLESS of every Jot and Tiddle not disappearing, they yet, were not supposed to follow it to the "T" any longer. Which was which? Which are we to follow, which are we supposed to learn from but NOT follow, because Christ fulfilled it?

You and I disagree on the scope, but we should not disagree on the precept.

Timothy even allowed himself to be circumcised by Paul...which TImothy knew 3:10 “but you have followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance...” Love actually only comes in 6 out of 9 in that list...

Matthew 22:40 :think:

is why Paul continues with 2 Tim 4:2 “Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine”...Paul knew you and yours were coming with itching ears to turn away from the truth and accept fables...like jewish false witness that Jesus changed the customs Moses delivered.

You judge, don't listen. That is your problem and it isn't 'loving.' Not even 'tough loving.' Work on it.

To love and be all nicey nice is to love as the world loves...we however are to Love as He loved us which is to correct us...we ARE our brothers keepers after all

Yeah, when I was a child, I did childish things like punching my brother. When I became a man, I did away with childish things (at least in the sense of where I am on the maturity level).

feel free...show your work...

I do. WAY more frequently than you do. You give obscure little links, not a lot of scripture. That you can talk through some of them? Good, but they really should be a large part of this discussion. ONLY God's Word doesn't return void. Your's and mine certainly can and will. It is why I endeavor to use a lot more of Him, and a lot less of me. You might take note....

does explain the instruction you have been giving...

To a mind, READY to jump to conclusions and confirmed bias? I bet it does.

here we go...

Cute

feel better? Perhaps the only reason you respond?

Don't quit your day job. "Counselling, Pastor, Teacher..." these you should re-evaluate along with your attempt at discernment or reading minds. You aren't good at these. Your gift likely dwells in some other place.

oh? Post #138 you claimed the Law was abolished...

:nono: Scripture claimed it. I simply posted it.

Posts #139 and #144 when you asked again I responded what is abolished was the enmity the jews had against goyim contained in ordinances jews established against goyim...that middle wall between them which He broke down making one of the two...but you ignored or avoided it...

Which makes you 1) ignorant (uninformed intentionally or not) 2)Dumb (incapable of reasoning) or 3) Lying (purposefully misstating truth you know to be otherwise).
I addressed it.

again with the attacks on the messenger...can you focus on the message please?

Speaking of irony, I've got you outposted with scriptures (really the only thing that matters) about 50 to one.

I reference scripture often...sorry I expect you to be so familiar to texts regarding this topic that citation is unnecessary...I mean must I cite John 3:16 to “For Yah so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son”? Now if I would include “But he who does the truth comes to the light that his seeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in Yah.” I would note verse 21 finished the teaching with the conclusion that what WE DO is also important not just what we believe or Whom we place our faith in...

:nono: I recognize scriptures when I see them, it is why I return with them. However, Satan misquoted scriptures. You've demonstrated Eve misquoted them. The problem is 1) others likely will not see them in scripture 2) you are being lazy, and 3) Only His words will accomplish what He desires, thus it is best to give Him credit 4) while we may use His words, there are plagiarism problems with not attributing your source. 5) It keeps people from arguing with you, and grasping the need to discuss these things with their Creator.

Is why this discussion that what you teach “the Law is abolished” does not produce more similar fruit to His..

.
Which is why your love is 'tough' love. It is very O.T. 1 Corinthians 10:9 Sin is sin, but following the O.T. is recommitting to becoming a Jew 'to earn or keep' standing with God.

of course not fleshy...FLESH PROFITS NOTHING...no material things do...no sacrifices no circumcision no Eucharist...it is all symbolic of the Spiritual realm...”for we know the law is Spiritual” Romans 7:14

You jumped into a conversation where 3rdAng was using it to 'enjoy a day off.' Because you jumped in the middle, it indeed, did appear that fleshly matters were your concern as well.

So the HEART matters...is it circumcised? Is your inner jew observant to what is a shadow pointing to the good things still to come?

Yes, but as with the JV/Varsity discussion, the Lord Jesus Christ raised the bar MUCH higher. The O.T. was like 'fat camp' with people who could barely get out of bed, metaphorically, to please God. Thus, those were 'low' hurdles (not to get too far from football analogy, where hurdles and tires are also involved). Jesus set the bar much higher in His sermon on the mount. It wasn't that the Law was abolished as much as the bar was set much higher, for instance, where divorce 'was' acceptable, but "God made them one flesh."

Love Yah and love your neighbor as yourself are already in the OT...the very thing you wish to abolish...and yet Yahushua upheld it, affirmed it, fulfilled it, and just like MARRIAGE restored it to its proper place...an eternal BINDING...

That is your fear, talking. I didn't abolish the Law. I quoted a scripture. It is either true, or it is not. There is no banter about that. It is either true or it is not. It is as simple as that.

no need...this worry is based on a false witness...you should worry more on your other false witness...the jewish one...that Jesus changed the customs of Moses...Acts 6:13-14

At this point, in your hasty assessments, I cannot take the warning without also considering you are given to exaggerations and half, unrefined truths. I'm not going to lose sleep over your apparently 'prophetic' pronouncement. Your britches are a little too big.

I am not spending this time or energy cuz I am bored...just teaching preaching correcting reproving fruits that do NOT match His...despite your claim you love Him...yet do NOT as He did...despite His asking you to...if you Love Him

Ah, 'despite.' Yeah, when a godly man actually comes my way and says 'Lon, you are not Christlike' I'll worry. You? You don't even balk at doing internet sessions :noway: You are a weirdo.

thanks but maybe that is exactly why I am responding...your prayers...to be a good follower and to serve Him

Ah, it was the 'but' that caught me.

I dont doubt you are convinced...your stubbornness is displayed

It surely is.

you do...even teach the law is broken...

It is, you cannot be saved by keeping it. If it worked, there was no need for a Savior.

Another concession...thanks...good...but why? Why even bother as you claim all that was done away with?

Cart before the horse. An unbeliever can't. A believer can't help but...

oh boy...Romans 7:14 we know the law is spiritual...dont we? I mean Paul and the romans did...

Yet, it was the low bar of behavior in many instances, like 'divorce.' 1) Jesus raised the bar from 'you have heard, BUT I tell you..." and 2) Spiritual people are being trained, a different way, (by the Spirit) to be Spiritual. You are playing Holy Spirit. Anybody, a Muslim, Buddhist, could say they have His Spirit (likely not given their beliefs). Rather, however, you nor I can 'born again' somebody. You nor I can 'new creation' somebody. Only Christ can. At that point, he/she needs neither you nor I, but in whatever sense we bless them. They do not need awkward teaching that gets in the way of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit IS the embodiment of ALL His teaching. You cannot play Holy Spirit for another person (STOP, I said "HOLY Spirit, don't liken Him to anybody else, but God very God, not Muslims or Buddhists or wherever your disclaimer wants to distractedly traverse).

and yet Sabbath was sweet sweet grace given even BEFORE the need of rest...before the curse of sin...its sweat inducing WORK...six daze...

Maybe you dont keep the work six days part either?

Sometimes more, sometimes less. A holy day is a day God has made. You are once again caught up in fleshly concern over it. It is kept by all who are indwelled with Him.

right just as a coach you cant force a kid to practice especially if he don’t wanna play...prolly cuz he doesnt want to keep the rules...those rules...lol

Then he/she doesn't want to play football, or be a Christian as the metaphor applies. Your Law thumping will never do it for them. There has to be a love for the game or it isn't going to happen.

But yes we are to be led by the Spirit into spiritual things...not away from MORE LIKE HIM not less

So you don't understand the Sermon on the Mount? It is taking you backwards, not forwards. You don't keep running low hurdles once you've graduated. As Paul said, the Law was a trainer. Those trained? They move further in Christ. If that is all you get from me, this is about the only thing worthy of taking note of in this thread, which YOU started hammering away with Sabbath keeping.

“Do we then make VOID the law through faith? Certainly NOT! On the contrary WE ESTABLISH THE LAW” Romans 3:31

AND exceed it. I won't divorce, and won't sacrifice an animal upon an altar. Why? 1) Low bar 2) because in Christ, anyone actually filled with Him WILL NECESSARILY exceed it! They are not going to cry or bow down at every intersection for the stop light. It is functional for what we need but Christ is the Object of affections. At the bema seat, it is relational "Depart I never knew you." Their defense was 'didn't we keep? Didn't we do? It wasn't about doing, it was about being known. Did the thief on the Cross do any one thing to be with Jesus in Paradise? He had faith.

So which LAW is that? The Law of the commonwealth of Israel? of which you’re a citizen of a subject to your King Mr Lord of the Sabbath?...is why a Sabbatismos remains for His people...

Which day is it? How do I, a gentile, keep it? What am I, according to you, supposed to do?

Or the LAW of man his traditions whatever his itching ears makes him feel good...every day any day rest...a JesusRest cleverly devised so long ago by those wishing to change both times and law

This also is a problem with not using scriptures. You mixed them out of context in your head.

“Here are they that keep the Commanmdments of Yah...and have the faith OF Yahushua...”

So I need to sacrifice bulls for thank offerings? How many of them are you observing? Which are you ignorant of? Or do I only keep the four you mentioned, as a gentile? :think:

Be specific, my eternity seems to be on the scale in your judgment. What qualifications do you have? Why should I listen to you compared to any other Adam?.

 

[Lon]

No offense Lon... but when you give us your translation of the Hebrew or Greek, you are appealing to yourself as an authority.

Sort of, but I rarely do it. Rather I post them for all to read on their own from and usually in response to some other wanna-be who really doesn't know either. So rather than prognosticating, I attempt to give people access in as simple of a fashion as I can find. This 'lord it over' stuff is for the arrogant and prideful. Of course you know I wrestle with it, so I appreciate (truly) the call to be 'among' my brothers instead of lording it over. I hope and pray I've grown over the years on TOL. I pray even some growth is evident in even this thread or else I'm stuck in my need for christian growth. I do appreciate your input. In Him -Lon

 

[clefty]

People who CANNOT read Hebrew or Greek use appeals to authority. :nono:

​ Not for me.

oh no you too good for that silly stuff eh?

You don't even address most of the opposing opinion...look how much you skipped...

It is evident why it is for you.

good students at times even appeal to authority regarding their native tongue...

You mix your scriptures to your own convenience and your theology is done in a blender for it.

odd response to a option to choose ye his day Whom ye will serve...and by true service not a false one made up of appeals to man's traditions...

You mean like you? When you can't bring one essential scripture to mind and make it up as you go.

I brought up scripture...but look how much you ignore...

I see what you do with it why should I offer you more?

Isaiah 66:22-23 about in the new heaven and new earth there'll be new moons and Sabbaths...

Matt 24:20 pray your flight be not on a Sabbath or a winter...

this text alone should finalize the matter...

Yahushua was speaking of future times of trouble and instructed prayers that the Sabbath be kept...note He didn't instruct prayers for their own preservation or a RAPTURE or even for the temple to be spared...but that the Sabbath be not a "run for your lives" day as that would break its blessing of rest...oh and winter times too He expected winter times to last...

As it happened a time of trouble indeed came about 70AD long after His DBR and ascension and after most books of the NT actually...wonder if they remembered to pray their Sabbath was kept...

Lying? Can you read Greek and Hebrew? How many years of each? If none, then I was indeed, NOT in error and you lied. For what? Why do it? Whom do you serve if you have to 1) Never,rarely use scripture, 2)feign some sort of Greek or Hebrew prowess (which a) you've not demonstrated at ALL and b) are not functional to my assessment in it 3) Assert your way without scriptures and argue from your flesh, to keep laws you demonstrably (in this thread) are incapable of keeping. You didn't win a thing here. Sorry. I'm not impressed, not until you take a couple of classes in each.

one shared link on clarity on Colossian 2 triggers the inquisition? Or was it the Greek sabbatismos about the Sabbath keeping remaining for His people?

Nope it was about the "thou shalt not"s the 10 Words...descriptions...regarding that where I AM these 10 are kept...

You are projecting and simply saying it rolls off your back. Jaded is not one of the fruits of the Spirit. :nono:

​

you ignored I addressed He demonstrated the NT lifestyle BEFORE He signed it with His blood and sealed it with death...after the testator dies no changes are allowed...please show where He taught or demonstrated cat bat or wombat dinners after Sunday power hour church...thanks

At least I read and know them. You? Look at your own work, not a scripture one, except where you engage mine.

Romans 3:31 we establish the Law...same Greek word found in 2 Cor 13:1 two three witnesses establish the matter...

Somebody is interested in something else. It is why this conversation leaves me with praying for your spiritual work. :wave:

​

Zechariah 14:16 has us even celebrating the feast of tabernacles...wonder if the food will be cat bats and wombats?

 

[clefty]

No, stop. Ask, don't tell what is on another's mind.

ask? So you can move goal posts again or deny or dismiss or distract...I gave enough evidence to show by “fulfilled” the law you mean abolished, at best another one at worst none at all

Or giving you a day you can enjoy in your flesh as the 'meaning' of Sabbath.

what? Enjoy a day of rest after six days work? that would be selfish or indulgent or “fleshy” according to you...

I am grateful He saved me and regenerated me into more like Him...more of His Way...His Faith...into Sabbath keeping as was His custom Luke 4:16

Gentiles, (unlike you who thinks all that was done away with) begged Paul return the next Sabbath to preach...He could have told them to come back the next day or mid week services but did not...Acts 13:42-44

Maybe he forgot? A few chapters later at the Jerusalem council James does NOT forget but concludes INDEED the crowding gentiles would continue to hear Moses taught every Sabbath. Acts 15:21

Cut to the chase in thread for meaning:

1) What is it? Perpetual covenant with Israel Ex 31:13-17 are you part of Israel? a commandment Ex 20:8-11 to commemorate both creation when Man was created and when His people were made free Deut 5:12-15
2) When is it? Is it "Saturday?" Asked and answered...ask jews
3) What does it accomplish, what is it intended for? You mean beyond physical rest healing and an outward sign of His people? A memorial? To teach His Holiness vs the world’s long list...
4) Why observe it, as a command? Why observe it as 'made for man?' Because you love Him? and He gave it to you? And asked you remember oh and do what they teach from moses seat Matt 23:3

That’s the thing about getting to know Him...to love Him...you find things out about Him His way and faith...

Not at all, you certainly do! Even now, just here:


No, you've been advocating the 10 as well as all the Laws of the Jews in thread. You advocate a righteousness THROUGH the Law. Ask anybody happening to read us. They will tell you that is clearly what you portray, if unintentional.

unintentionally?...I clearly portray righteousness through works? I just gave you Acts 26:20 but see? this is why it is of no use with you...you ignore dismiss twist texts and then wonder why I don’t provide more for you to pervert...

It renders your whole entire work in this thread meaningless but good!

SEE? AGAIN By faith being saved and then out of gratitude doing His works He prepared for us to do? And NOT man’s traditions?

I said faith first then His works...and you think that nullifies my position?

:doh:
The past few pages were just arguing to argue then?

how does:

once one is saved one WANTS to follow Him JUST AS and bear fruits LIKE HIS being guided by the Spirit INTO fulfilling Law thus NO LONGER UNDER IT...both jew and gentile

And you think that differs from what I have been saying the past few pages...LOL

Then you don’t read, or comprehend, or retain, or just ignore my posts...

"zing!" lain: The WAY you do debate is not godly as far as I grasp the scriptures. Why would anybody want to even talk to you, Clefty? Your Christianity has become one-upmanship and pride. You are doing that 'biting each other' thing Paul warns against.

don’t be sore...we all know when the other side complains about cheating...and when the ref doesnt see any....they will blame the refs

Right, you are starting to say some things I've said in thread. I think you just posture in exaggeration. Why? I 'think' because you just like verbal fights.

LOL and now you wish to take credit for what I use? You have not mentioned establishing Law Rom 3:31...posturing...LOL

Read your own sentences above. How many have you broken, in just this thread? If they are all based on love of God and love of man, have you been loving Him or me to date? YOU list which ones you actually keep?

I asked you first...please list which of the 10 we don’t establish...so far you have only demonstrated the 9th

Yes, the biblical one. The Good news isn't "Christ died so you could immaculately keep every law." The good news is Christ died to save sinners and I certainly was one. By Faith, I stand. Ephesians 2:8-10 Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

Just a list of which of the 10 (you know His good works which He ordained before) we dont need (should) to establish (walk in) thanks...

Are YOU a workmanship of Christ? If so, HE will make you into His image. In Hebrews 12, He disciplines those He loves, He guides His sheep, He give the Holy Spirit. That Spirit is NOT the Spirit of Buddhism or Muslim. It is the very Spirit of Christ.

right so which of the 10 dont we need to establish?

You are caught up in 'doing' rather than 'BEING.' Can someone who has His Spirit not follow?

many claim few have fruits to testify...many insist they are His but misrepresent Him...as they DO NOT do AS He did...

Any can claim BEING a football player it is in the DOING...and which rules he FOLLOWS indicates his training

Many are called...few are chosen...it’s NOT LORD! LORD! but those that do...not just hear but DO

Feel free to look up the texts yourself...start with this 1 John 2:1-6

“But it doesnt say Sabbath” I can hear you bleat...verse 6 covers that...

Will demands to follow the O.T. save that one? Think OFTEN before you speak. You don't do theology nicely or to His glory at present. You started off fighting and I'm leaving you off....fighting all by yourself.

O.T. teaching is they were saved by faith first...then obeyed...saved they followed Him out of Egypt THEN were given the Sabbath...both native and foreigner alike...so affirmed the Lord of the Sabbath

 

[Lon]

Sorry for the large chunk, some people do not read their bibles so don't know (it is important):

Gal 1:6 I marvel that you so soon are being moved away from Him who called you into the grace of Christ, to another gospel,
Gal 1:7 which is not another, but some are troubling you, and desiring to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 2:4 But because of those false brothers stealing in, who stole in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus; they desiring to enslave us;
Gal 2:5 to whom not even for an hour did we yield in subjection, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they did not walk uprightly with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before all, If you, being a Jew, live as a Gentile, and not as the Jews, why do you compel the nations to judaize?
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified in Christ, we also were found to be sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Let it not be said!
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I confirm myself as a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For through the Law I died to the law, that I might live to God.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf.
Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness is through law, then Christ died without cause.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you not to obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was written among you crucified?
Gal 3:2 This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?
Gal 3:5 Then He supplying the Spirit to you and working powerful works in you, is it by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
Gal 3:10 For as many as are out of works of the Law, these are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them."
Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is clear, for, "The just shall live by faith."
Gal 3:12 But the Law is not of faith; but, "The man who does these things shall live in them."

Gal 3:19 Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand.

Gal 4:1 But I say, Over so long a time the heir is an infant, he does not differ from a slave, though being lord of all;
Gal 4:2 but he is under guardians and housemasters until the term appointed before by the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were infants, were in bondage under the elements of the world.
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, coming into being out of a woman, having come under Law,
Gal 4:5 that He might redeem those under Law, so that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 So that you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, also an heir of God through Christ.

Gal 4:8 But then, indeed, not knowing God, you served as slaves to those not by nature being gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, knowing God, but rather are known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements to which you again desire to slave anew?
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and times and years.
Gal 4:11 I fear for you, lest somehow I have labored among you in vain.



Gal 4:24 which things are being allegorized; for these are the two covenants, one indeed from Mount Sinai bringing forth to slavery, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all. me.
Gal 4:16 So then did I become your enemy speaking to you the truth?
Gal 4:17 They are zealous for you, but not well. But they only desire to shut you out, that you be zealous to them.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and do not again be held with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I, Paul, say to you that if you are circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do all the Law,
Gal 5:4 you who are justified by Law are deprived of all effect from Christ; you fell from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness out of faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you that you do not obey the truth?
Gal 5:8 This persuasion is not from Him who calls you.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leavens all the lump.

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Gal 5:24 But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become glory-seeking, provoking one another, envying one another.

Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, being nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But let each one prove his own work, and then he alone will have a boast in himself, and not in another.
Gal 6:5 For each one will bear his own load.

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to look well in the flesh, these compel you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Gal 6:13 For they themselves, having been circumcised, do not even keep the Law, but they desire you to be circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
Gal 6:14 But may it never be for me to boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God.

Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.


Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity (the Law of commandments contained in ordinances) so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, making peace between them;

Scripture is enough. Plenty enough. -Lon