THE LORDS DAY CONTROVERSY?

[3rdAngel]

Incorrect. The Julian (Hebrew) calendar, the Sabbath would be a different day each year or so, not "Saturday" for instance. While it makes no difference to Jews in B.C. it makes a huge difference for a 7th Day Adventist today: He/she is simply incorrect: the day isn't 'Saturday.' They'd have to change it every year (impractical), or simply, randomly, assign a day, but not be legalistic about it. They literally cannot follow the O.T. directive.
It completely affects the week cycle. Read the link. Every few years, they 'reset' the calendar to keep up with the seasons. It means 'spirit' of the law vs. anything woodenly possible, even back then.

Hi Lon nice to see you again but no dear friend and nothing you have provided here supports your claims God's seventh day weekly Sabbath of God's 4th commandment being lost, but here is why. Even these changes in the calander does not effect the seven day weekly cycle. Take another look. When the Julian calender changed to the Gregorian calander in 1582 the days lost from the yearly calander did not effect the seven day weekly cycle. For example Thursday October 4 on the Julian calander was followed by Friday October 15 on the new Gregorian calander which keeps the continous weekly cycle in tact. Can you see your error here? It is the continous weekly cycle that identifies the Sabbath not a change in the yearly calander that does not disrupt the continous weekly cycle that identifies the "seventh day" of the week.

The U.S. Naval Observatory has also reported that there has never been any change in the continuity of the weekly cycle.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Right Divider]

Nonsense, but here is why. The Greek and Hebrew word meaning sometimes have multiple meanings.

That's true in every language.

Interpretation of these words and the correct meanings are applied to the context to how they are written in both within scripture and chapter CONTEXT and subject matter. What you have failed to address is the context and subject matter of REVELATION 1:10 that κυριακή ημέρα (the Lord's day) is applied to.

Nonsense. The context is NOT a "day of the week".

The context and subject matter is "the day that John was in the Spirit on" and both REVELATION 1:10-14 show that the subject matter is not to the second coming to which the "Day of the Lord" is always applied to but to John being in the presence of JESUS in the heavenly Sanctuary (seven golden candlesticks v12).

John is being given details about the DAY OF THE LORD... God's judgement on the world and the the restoration of all things thereafter.

On the other hand everytime "the day of the Lord" (ἡμέρα κυρίου) as opposed to "the Lord's day" (κυριακή ημέρα) it is in reference to the 2nd coming of JESUS (see ACTS 2:20).

The book of Revelation is about the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The book REVEALS the details of that coming.

It is the application of the Greek to context and subject matter that determines definition and interpretation. This is why what you propose is in error.

I'm not in error.

Hope this is helpful.

Thanks, it wasn't.

 

[3rdAngel]

That's true in every language.

Indeed, the point being you have ignorned context and the word definition to which they are applied which prove why you are in error.

Nonsense. The context is NOT a "day of the week".

That is what you say but the scripture says JOHN was in the Spirit on the Lord's day in the presence of JESUS in the Heavenly Sanctuary and not the second coming (day of the Lord). *REVELATION 1:1-14

John is being given details about the DAY OF THE LORD... God's judgement on the world and the the restoration of all things thereafter.

No, they are your words reading into the scripture what that scriptures do not not say. The scripture says that JOHN was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and the context was in the presence of JESUS in the heavenly Sanctuary not the second coming (see REVLATION 1:10-14 as proof). These are God's Words and they disagree with you.

The book of Revelation is about the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

True but REVELATION 1:10-14 is stating that JOHN was in the Spirit on the Lord's day being in the presence of JESUS in the Heavenly Sanctuary not the second coming or "day of the Lord" The scriptures say "the Lords day" with the Greek meaning to context that John was "in the Spirit on the day belonging to the Lord" defined in the scriptures as the Sabbath day *MATTHEW 12:8

I'm not in error.

Sure you are the scriptures do not say what your claiming they are saying.

 

[Hawkins]

Lord's day is most likely a Sunday. Under Paul's ministry, churches in Asia Minor are always a mixture of the Jewish and gentile Christians. Jewish Christians need to observe the Sabbath on Saturday. It is natural that Christian worship is arranged on Sunday.

Sabbath serves two purposes for God to mark that 1) planet earth is under God's sovereignty such that human calendars in the end will show a 7 day week, and 2) with humans rest on the weekends.

 

[Right Divider]

Indeed, the point being you have ignorned context and the word definition to which they are applied which prove why you are in error.

I have not. Stop lying.

That is what you say but the scripture says JOHN was in the Spirit on the Lord's day in the presence of JESUS in the Heavenly Sanctuary and not the second coming (day of the Lord). *REVELATION 1:1-14

There is NO reason to believe that it refers to a day of the week. The book of REVELATION is about the return of the LORD and His judgement on the earth.

 

[3rdAngel]

Lord's day is most likely a Sunday. Under Paul's ministry, churches in Asia Minor are always a mixture of the Jewish and gentile Christians. Jewish Christians need to observe the Sabbath on Saturday. It is natural that Christian worship is arranged on Sunday.

Sabbath serves two purposes for God to mark that 1) planet earth is under God's sovereignty such that human calendars in the end will show a 7 day week, and 2) with humans rest on the weekends.

Hi Hawkins, nice to meet you here. There is no scripture that says that "the Lords day" is Sunday or the first day of the week. The only reference to "the Lords day" is to God's 4th commandment found in Matthew 12:8. All christians both Jews and Gentile believers to this very present day kept God's seventh day Sabbath unbroken to this very present day. This is shown in the scriptures and also in the historical records.

 

[3rdAngel]

I have not. Stop lying.

Hello RT. I have only told you the truth and shown from the scriptures alone why your claims are in error. You have been shown from the scriptures alone why your claims to REVELATION 1:10 being "the day of the Lord" is impossible as it is not the same Greek word, context and subject matter of REVELATION 1:10-14.These are God's Word not mine and they disagree with you. In response you simply say "stop lying" when only scripture is shared with you and without addressing the scriptures and the posts that disagree with your understanding of the scriptures. God is not a liar *ROMANS 3:4. I suggest you take it up with God.

There is NO reason to believe that it refers to a day of the week. The book of REVELATION is about the return of the LORD and His judgement on the earth.

Sure there is. You have just been shown from the scriptures which say that "John was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day" or a day beliging to the Lord which the scriptures show is the Sabbath in MATTHEW 12:8. These are God's Words not mine but you do not believe them and call God a liar.

God's sheep hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear do not follow because they are not His sheep *JOHN 10:26-27. Only God's Word is true and we should beleive and follow them *ROMANS 3:4 over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

Ignoring God's Word does not make them go away. They become our judge come judgement day *JOHN 12:47-48

 

[Right Divider]

Hello RT. I have only told you the truth and shown from the scriptures alone why your claims are in error. You have been shown from the scriptures alone why your claims to REVELATION 1:10 being "the day of the Lord" is impossible as it is not the same Greek word, context and subject matter of REVELATION 1:10-14.These are God's Word not mine and they disagree with you. In response you simply say "stop lying" without addressing the scriptures and the posts that disagree with your understanding of the scriptures. God is not a liar *ROMANS 3:4. I suggest you take it up with God.

As I showed you earlier, both words are derived from the same base. Your "word theory" is bogus.

 

[3rdAngel]

As I showed you earlier, both words are derived from the same base. Your "word theory" is bogus.

Actually there is your lie. You did no such thing as demonstrated through the context shown that you leave out in REVELATION 1:10-14 that show John was in the Spirit on the Lords day in the presence of JESUS in the heavenly Sanctuary and not the second coming.

 

[Right Divider]

Actually there is your lie. You did no such thing as demonstrated through the context shown that you leave out in REVELATION 1:10-14 that show John was in the Spirit on the Lords day in the presence of JESUS in the heavenly Sanctuary and not the second coming.

The book of REVELATION is all about the second coming and what comes after.

 

[3rdAngel]

The book of REVELATION is all about the second coming and what comes after.

Indeed, although REVELATION 1:10-14 is stating that JOHN was in the Spirit on "the Lord's day" being in the presence of JESUS in the Heavenly Sanctuary not the second coming or "day of the Lord" The scriptures say "the Lords day" with the Greek meaning to context that John was "in the Spirit on the day belonging to the Lord" defined in the scriptures as the Sabbath day *MATTHEW 12:8

 

[Right Divider]

Indeed, although REVELATION 1:10-14 is stating that JOHN was in the Spirit on "the Lord's day" being in the presence of JESUS in the Heavenly Sanctuary not the second coming or "day of the Lord" The scriptures say "the Lords day" with the Greek meaning to context that John was "in the Spirit on the day belonging to the Lord" defined in the scriptures as the Sabbath day *MATTHEW 12:8

I understand that your false SDA doctrine is tied tightly to this ONE and ONLY instance of the term "Lord's Day" in the Greek scriptures.

The Lord's day is a coming judgment per the day of the Lord.

 

[3rdAngel]

I understand that your false SDA doctrine is tied tightly to this ONE and ONLY instance of the term "Lord's Day" in the Greek scriptures.

The Lord's day is a coming judgment per the day of the Lord.

Nonsense. There is two references to the Greek Word use of "Lord's" (κυριακῇ kuriakē), which occurs only in Revelation 1:10 in refernece to the Lord's ownership of the day that John was in the Spirit of and in 1 Corinthians 11:20, where it is applied to the Lord's supper. I have only posted scripture which is God's Word not my words. God's Word is not false doctrine it is God's Word and is the truth. You on the other hand post your words which are not God's Word but your words which are not God's. Only God's Word is true dear friend and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. JESUS says all those who knowingly follow man made teachings that break Gods' commandments are not following God *MATTHEW 15:2-9. If that is the case who should we believe and follow in your veiw, God or man? *ACTS 5:29

 

[Lon]

Hi Lon nice to see you again but no dear friend and nothing you have provided here supports your claims to lost seventh day weekly Sabbaths, but here is why. Even these changes in the calander does not effect the seven day weekly cycle. Take another look. When the Julian calender changed to the Gregorian calander in 1582 no days lost from the yearly calander disrupted the seven day weekly cycle. For example Thursday October 4 on the Julian calander was followed by Friday October 15 on the new Gregorian calander which keeps the continous weekly cycle in tact. Can you see your error here? It is the continous weekly cycle that identifies the Sabbath not a change in the yearly calander that does not disrupt the continous weekly cycle that identifies the "seventh day" of the week.

The U.S. Naval Observatory has also reported that there has never been any change in the continuity of the weekly cycle.

Hope this is helpful.

I've seen this, but look:
"Has the calendar been changed? Yes, but the weekly cycle has never been changed. The Julian calendar was in use when Jesus was on earth. The calendar, which continued in use for 15 centuries was not accurate in length of its year, for it was a quarter hour too long. By 1582, it was 10 days off. Pope Gregory initiated a change in the calendar by going to the Gregorian Calendar, and to make up for the error in the Julian calendar, 10 days were added to the calendar. In October, 1582, Thursday the 4th was followed by Friday the 15th in Italy and a few other countries." -http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/calendar.html

Problem, even though they made the next day 'Friday' the calendar lost 10 days. Try to divide 10 by 7. :nono: While someone may 'think' they never missed a day, because of the leap to Julian calendar, "Ten" days (not 7) were lost. Moreover? It is impossible to go back to the Julian calendar to try and celebrate the 'correct day' of the Sabbath, it'd ALWAYS become a different day year to year when the rest of the world is on the Gregorian calendar. Sorry. Fact. It is proved in even the same posts nay-sayers attempt to asset in.

More? My birthday this year is on Saturday. Last year? Thursday. I don't mind one being convinced in their own minds. I mind legalism and those who'd want to impose their own convictions upon others, sight unseen (and it truly is unseen, and that is ALL any Sabbath preacher can do, nothing but a simplistic assertion full of error (sorry if you are a sabbath-thumper, it isn't tenable). The Seventh Day Adventists are just as bad as any other church that seeks to mandate to people how they should live (Judaism, legalism). Paul warns about this severely in Galatians. You wouldn't happen to be a Seventh Day Adventist, would you?

 

[3rdAngel]

Originally posted by 3rdAngel View Post

Hi Lon nice to see you again but no dear friend and nothing you have provided here supports your claims to lost seventh day weekly Sabbaths, but here is why. Even these changes in the calander does not effect the seven day weekly cycle. Take another look. When the Julian calender changed to the Gregorian calander in 1582 no days lost from the yearly calander disrupted the seven day weekly cycle. For example Thursday October 4 on the Julian calander was followed by Friday October 15 on the new Gregorian calander which keeps the continous weekly cycle in tact. Can you see your error here? It is the continous weekly cycle that identifies the Sabbath not a change in the yearly calander that does not disrupt the continous weekly cycle that identifies the "seventh day" of the week.

The U.S. Naval Observatory has also reported that there has never been any change in the continuity of the weekly cycle.

Your response here...

I've seen this, but look:"Has the calendar been changed? Yes, but the weekly cycle has never been changed. The Julian calendar was in use when Jesus was on earth. The calendar, which continued in use for 15 centuries was not accurate in length of its year, for it was a quarter hour too long. By 1582, it was 10 days off. Pope Gregory initiated a change in the calendar by going to the Gregorian Calendar, and to make up for the error in the Julian calendar, 10 days were added to the calendar. In October, 1582, Thursday the 4th was followed by Friday the 15th in Italy and a few other countries." -http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/calendar.html

Problem, even though they made the next day 'Friday' the calendar lost 10 days. Try to divide 10 by 7. :nono: While someone may 'think' they never missed a day, because of the leap to Julian calendar, "Ten" days (not 7) were lost. Moreover? It is impossible to go back to the Julian calendar to try and celebrate the 'correct day' of the Sabbath, it'd ALWAYS become a different day year to year when the rest of the world is on the Gregorian calendar. Sorry. Fact. It is proved in even the same posts nay-sayers attempt to asset in.

More? My birthday this year is on Saturday. Last year? Thursday. I don't mind one being convinced in their own minds. I mind legalism and those who'd want to impose their own convictions upon others, sight unseen (and it truly is unseen, and that is ALL any Sabbath preacher can do, nothing but a simplistic assertion full of error (sorry if you are a sabbath-thumper, it isn't tenable). The Seventh Day Adventists are just as bad as any other church that seeks to mandate to people how they should live (Judaism, legalism). Paul warns about this severely in Galatians. You wouldn't happen to be a Seventh Day Adventist, would you?

Hi Lon, nice to see you again.

Not really dear friend. Your mixing up the yearly cycle with the weekly cycle. The weekly cycle is the same as it always has been and it is unbroken as proven in the first post above. Taking 10 days off a year does not change the weekly cycle of every seven days. Seems to me your just seeking a way to deny the scriptures. You are free to believe as you wish. We all answer only to God come judgement day. The words of God we accept or reject are a blessing or a curse. They are a blessing to all those who believe and receive them with an open heart because they love God and want to have a closer walk with him or a curse to those who reject them as they are Gods Word and those who reject God's Word when they have been given a knowledge of the truth in order to continue in sin reject God (see HEBREWS 10:26-39).

May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring them do not make them disappear. They become our judge come judgement day *JOHN 12:47-48

 

[JudgeRightly]

What people seem to be forgetting is that the Jews don't have just one calendar.

They have two.

One for the normal year, which has Sabbaths on saturdays.
And another for the feasts and such, which has High Sabbaths for the feast days.

Christ rose on a Sunday, after dying three days earlier on a Thursday, as the Friday of that year was a High Sabbath, and then the regular Sabbath on Saturday.

So my question for you, 3rdAngel, is why do you say it's a specific day according to one calendar, when the Jews have two?

In other words, why do you ignore the second calendar to push your beliefs about the first?

 

[3rdAngel]

What people seem to be forgetting is that the Jews don't have just one calendar.

They have two.

One for the normal year, which has Sabbaths on saturdays.
And another for the feasts and such, which has High Sabbaths for the feast days.

Christ rose on a Sunday, after dying three days earlier on a Thursday, as the Friday of that year was a High Sabbath, and then the regular Sabbath on Saturday.

So my question for you, 3rdAngel, is why do you say it's a specific day according to one calendar, when the Jews have two?

In other words, why do you ignore the second calendar to push your beliefs about the first?

Hi JR, nice to meet you here and great question. God's weekly Sabbath is a part of God's eternal law (10 commandments) made at creation on the "seventh day of the creaton week" *GENESIS 2:1-3 that we look back to as a memorial of creation that God blessed, set apart from all the other days of the week and made as a holy day for mankind *MARK 2:27. This is based on the seven day weekly cycle and is simply every "seventh day" The Hebrew word for "sabbath" (H7676 שׁבּת; shabbâth) is the noun descripter of what is being kept which is every seventh day and simply means from one sabbath to the next sabbath. While the verb and root word of sabbath which means "keeping sabbath" is rest; rested; resting in context to work (H7373 שׁבת; shâbath). The "seventh day" weekly Sabbath given at creation, is God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that define what sin is when broken *EXODUS 20:8-11; ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11. The creation sabbath is based on a weekly cycle not a monthly, yearly or luna calander cycle where as the annual festival sabbaths are. The seventh day weekly Sabbaths are simply based on a seven day weekly cycle which is continous while the annual shadow sabbaths in the feast days (e.g Leviticus 23; passover; day of atonement; feast of booths, etc) are based on the yearly calanders which cycle to the new moons. These sabbaths interestingly enough will also fall on any day of the week depending on the hearly cycle (kind of like our birthday falls on a different weekly day each year). See the difference here? There are two different cycles. One is weekly (the 4th commandment) the others are yearly based on different calanders luna cycles. Also, you may have picked up that the weekle seventh day Sabbath looks back to the finished work of God's creation it is a memorial and starts of "REMEMBER" *EXODUS 20:8-11. While the annual shadow Sabbaths look forward to the coming of JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant.

Hope this helps.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Hi JR, nice to meet you here and great question. God's weekly Sabbath is a part of God's eternal law (10 commandments) made at creation on the "seventh day of the creaton week" *GENESIS 2:1-3 that we look back to as a memorial of creation that God blessed, set apart from all the other days of the week and made as a holy day for mankind *MARK 2:27. This is based on the seven day weekly cycle and is simply every "seventh day" The Hebrew word for "sabbath" (H7676 שׁבּת; shabbâth) is the noun descripter of what is being kept which is every seventh day and simply means from one sabbath to the next sabbath. While the verb and root word of sabbath which means "keeping sabbath" is rest; rested; resting in context to work (H7373 שׁבת; shâbath). The "seventh day" weekly Sabbath given at creation, is God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that define what sin is when broken *EXODUS 20:8-11; ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11. The creation sabbath is based on a weekly cycle not a monthly, yearly or luna calander cycle where as the annual festival sabbaths are. The seventh day weekly Sabbaths are simply based on a seven day weekly cycle which is continous while the annual shadow sabbaths in the feast days (e.g Leviticus 23; passover; day of atonement; feast of booths, etc) are based on the yearly calanders which cycle to the new moons. These sabbaths interestingly enough will also fall on any day of the week depending on the hearly cycle (kind of like our birthday falls on a different weekly day each year). See the difference here? There are two different cycles. One is weekly (the 4th commandment) the others are yearly based on different calanders luna cycles. Also, you may have picked up that the weekle seventh day Sabbath looks back to the finished work of God's creation it is a memorial and starts of "REMEMBER" *EXODUS 20:8-11. While the annual shadow Sabbaths look forward to the coming of JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant.

Hope this helps.

Not one bit of that addressed the point I was trying to make to you.

Try dropping out of teacher mode for a second:

Your entire argument assumes that it's a Sabbath day.

But there are two types of Sabbaths.

There's the weekly Sabbath (which we call Saturday) and then there's the High Sabbaths which are for feast days. the Shabbat, and the Shabbatan.

Why couldn't (and I'm not saying it is) the "Lord's Day" be on a "High Sabbath", which we know can be on days other than Saturday?

If you cannot answer this, then your reasoning isn't sound enough to be reliable for the "Lord's Day" to be referring to Saturdays.

Add to that RD's points, and your position becomes even less tenable.

 

[3rdAngel]

Not one bit of that addressed the point I was trying to make to you.

Try dropping out of teacher mode for a second:

Your entire argument assumes that it's a Sabbath day.

But there are two types of Sabbaths.

There's the weekly Sabbath (which we call Saturday) and then there's the High Sabbaths which are for feast days. the Shabbat, and the Shabbatan.

Why couldn't (and I'm not saying it is) the "Lord's Day" be on a "High Sabbath", which we know can be on days other than Saturday?

If you cannot answer this, then your reasoning isn't sound enough to be reliable for the "Lord's Day" to be referring to Saturdays.

Add to that RD's points, and your position becomes even less tenable.

Well I thought I did indeed answer your first post question which was in reference to the two calander cycles, read the post it addressed the two types of sabbaths and shows that they both work off different cycles (one is weekly and the other yearly; one is eternal and the others are shadows of things to come fulilled in Christ and the new covenant promises and God's wordk in the Heavenly sanctuary). What is it you did not understand? A "high Sabbath" is simply an annual feast Sabbath that depending on the yearly cycle can fall on any day of the week including God's 4th commandment weekly sabbath.

As to your new question in this post; "Why couldn't (and I'm not saying it is) the "Lord's Day" be on a "High Sabbath", which we know can be on days other than Saturday?" If this is what you were trying to ask in your first post I did not get that question in your earlier post so we can discuss it here...

I believe according to the scriptures that the only reference to what day "the Lord's day" is or the Lord's ownership of that day can be found in MATTHEW 12:8 or Mark 2:28 which defines "the Lord's day" as the 4th commandment or the seventh day Sabbath. There is no scripture that shows that "the Lords day" in REVELATION 1:10 is to the first day of the week.

Now what point did RD make that was biblical? - None. His interpretation that REVELATION 1:10 is not biblical as it does not agree with the Greek meaning and scripture context that determines interpretation as proven from previous posts and scripture showing context he ignored from REVELATION 1:9-14 proving that John was "in the Spirit on the Lord's day in the presence of Jesus in the Heavenly Sanctuary and not the second coming". This is the same as trying to make an argument that REVELATION 1:10 is in reference to an annual feast Sabbath when "the Lords day" context to MATTHEW 12:8 and MARK 2:28 is in reference to the weekly seventh day Sabbath. Do you really think John would be able to work out the calculations of an annual feast sabbath in a Roman prison on patmos? I believe all the above reasons prove why REVELATION 1:10 is simply God's 4th commandment. There is no scriptural evidence for Sunday or an annual feast sabbaths being "the Lord's day". Yet there is scripture for God's 4th commandment seventh day weekly Sabbath.

Hope this is more helpful.

 

[Right Divider]

Now what point did RD make that was biblical? - None.

You create your own (SDA) interpretation of the text and claim it's the truth... It's not.

It's always entertaining when someone uses the Bible and then claims that THEIR version of the story is Biblical.

There is nothing "Biblical" about your twisted version of Rev 1:10.

P.S. The body of Christ has no special days and no sabbaths. You're "controversy" is only between those that don't know what Paul teaches.

Col 2:16-17 KJV Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.