The Late Great Urantia Revelation

[Charity]

I think the Angels were a Bunch of Men banking on revolution...All good intended, as Jesus was an Angel, designed to rule...

Politics at it's first an best...good angel and a bad angel simultaneously, The minds may vote, hence, Watch out for (I wont Lie), an vote for (I can Lie but I wont)...“It is better to be offered no excuse than Hear a really bad one.”

 

[Caino]

They (the angels) made one decision at their creation...yea or nay.

We are given the privilege? of taking our good natured time about our decision, but it is the same decision.

tWINs

That’s pretty lame philosophy Bucksplasher, "decision" would still connote time lapse even if your guessing were true.

The Causes of Rebellion​

(602.4) 53:2.1 Lucifer and his first assistant, Satan, had reigned on Jerusem for more than five hundred thousand years when in their hearts they began to array themselves against the Universal Father and his then vicegerent Son, Michael.

(602.5) 53:2.2 There were no peculiar or special conditions in the system of Satania which suggested or favored rebellion. It is our belief that the idea took origin and form in Lucifer’s mind, and that he might have instigated such a rebellion no matter where he might have been stationed. Lucifer first announced his plans to Satan, but it required several months to corrupt the mind of his able and brilliant associate. However, when once converted to the rebel theories, he became a bold and earnest advocate of “self-assertion and liberty.”

(602.6) 53:2.3 No one ever suggested rebellion to Lucifer. The idea of self-assertion in opposition to the will of Michael and to the plans of the Universal Father, as they are represented in Michael, had its origin in his own mind. His relations with the Creator Son had been intimate and always cordial. At no time prior to the exaltation of his own mind did Lucifer openly express dissatisfaction about the universe administration. Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer’s mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.

(602.7) 53:2.4 Throughout this period Lucifer became increasingly critical of the entire plan of universe administration but always professed wholehearted loyalty to the Supreme Rulers. His first outspoken disloyalty was manifested on the occasion of a visit of Gabriel to Jerusem just a few days before the open proclamation of the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. Gabriel was so profoundly impressed with the certainty of the impending outbreak that he went direct to Edentia to confer with the Constellation Fathers regarding the measures to be employed in case of open rebellion.

(603.1) 53:2.5 It is very difficult to point out the exact cause or causes which finally culminated in the Lucifer rebellion. We are certain of only one thing, and that is: Whatever these first beginnings were, they had their origin in Lucifer’s mind. There must have been a pride of self that nourished itself to the point of self-deception, so that Lucifer for a time really persuaded himself that his contemplation of rebellion was actually for the good of the system, if not of the universe. By the time his plans had developed to the point of disillusionment, no doubt he had gone too far for his original and mischief-making pride to permit him to stop. At some point in this experience he became insincere, and evil evolved into deliberate and willful sin. That this happened is proved by the subsequent conduct of this brilliant executive. He was long offered opportunity for repentance, but only some of his subordinates ever accepted the proffered mercy. The Faithful of Days of Edentia, on the request of the Constellation Fathers, in person presented the plan of Michael for the saving of these flagrant rebels, but always was the mercy of the Creator Son rejected and rejected with increasing contempt and disdain."​

Caino

 

[freelight]

Agreed, but if you truly follow the voice of the shepherd then you should be able to hear his voice wherever the spirit of truth is spoken.

The bold above is 'key'. Truth is not limited to any one given form or religious book or tradition for that matter.


pj

 

[freelight]

movements in space......

movements in space......

There is "no time" in the spiritual realm as the angels were created in eternity before time. In eternity they made their decision to follow God or not. There was no "gradual" change. Only "one" of the reasons this enlightenment is claptrap.

tWINs

Hi bucky,

Your assumption above is illogical, since all that transpires as a matter of relationship and movement does so in a context of 'time-perception', so that all decisions or movements of mind (thought-correlations) that relate to other thoughts (cause/effect, relativity) are time sequenced. Therefore the whole cosmic drama of angels in rebellion must necessarily be perceived as transpiring in time, and at a certain time (imagine what you will about 'eternity')

As shared previously, time on Paradise or more spiritualized worlds and to other celestial beings will be somewhat different because of dimension and conditions, but there is relativity of sequence, transpiration of events that take place, as long as such are 'relatable', and much more so to the mind of man as he is able to understand and conceptualize.

There was no "gradual" change.

How do you figure that? In space-time relativity there is action/reaction, cause/effect, seed/harvest, evolution, motion - these 'transpire' in time by virtue of their movements.

Only "one" of the reasons this enlightenment is claptrap.

Even if this held water, it would be a lousy reason to assume all in the UB is claptrap, because your assumption of 'time-relations' is askew. It appears that you're more likely trying to find weak-spots in the UB off the cuff to discredit it. (surprise).

Again, even if one sees parts of the UB as religious fiction, or cosmic mythology, so be it. All events transpire in some mode of space-time relativity and perception. Thats obvious. We can split hairs over 'eternity' vs. 'time' perception or butt heads over the metaphysics of 'simultaneity', but the obvious implications of 'angels in rebellion' and the whole cosmic drama, in fact the whole strata of creation, a falling away, redemption, a divine Son's incarnation, a divine anointing, a movement of the Spirit, all things fluxing, connotes a perception of time. The UB goes into space-time relationships rather insightfully, from the higher pespective of the celestials, but such insight could only be afforded to a reader. (hint)


Injoy!


Paulie

 

[Burning Bush]

Bucksplasher is right. Time is the measurement of death, and since His Spirit is LIFE, there is no death in it, therefore no time in it, either.

 

[Caino]

Bucksplasher is right. Time is the measurement of death, and since His Spirit is LIFE, there is no death in it, therefore no time in it, either.

You guys are obsessed with death, death is normal. We were talking about weather Gods created beings in the celestial world are subject to time. God transcends time and space while his creation is relative to him, the celestials are conscious of time but it is a different time then ours.


Caino

 

[Caino]

Research on the Double Dual Origin of
Modern Man and pre-Modern Man


http://ubthenews.com/topics/Modern_Man_Origin.htm​

Caino

 

[freelight]

space-time relations......

space-time relations......

Bucksplasher is right. Time is the measurement of death, and since His Spirit is LIFE, there is no death in it, therefore no time in it, either.

Explanations on 'time' already shared. Any story related by mind, especially our religious mythologies which describe events transpiring, whether in higher spiritual spheres or worlds, a pre-existence, between personalities...have a time element to them.

Wherever there is movement/relativity...there is space/time perception. This in noway discounts any religious myth or story, because such is the natural way we can relate to the story.
We're dealing with the event of the Lucifer rebellion (a transaction within and between personalities), not a treatise on the metaphysics of space or time. Thats another subject altogether which the UB extensively covers.





pj

 

[freelight]

sequence in eternity......

sequence in eternity......

You guys are obsessed with death, death is normal. We were talking about weather Gods created beings in the celestial world are subject to time. God transcends time and space while his creation is relative to him, the celestials are conscious of time but it is a different time then ours.


Caino

It might behoove readers to consider that 'God' both experiences time and transcends time. 'God' is both within and without time.


More on space-time relations Here.



pj

 

[Burning Bush]

You guys are obsessed with death, death is normal. We were talking about weather Gods created beings in the celestial world are subject to time. God transcends time and space while his creation is relative to him, the celestials are conscious of time but it is a different time then ours.


Caino

Death is not normal; death is our enemy. It only seems normal because that's all we've experienced since Adam, with a few notable exceptions.

 

[freelight]

Death is not normal; death is our enemy. It only seems normal because that's all we've experienced since Adam, with a few notable exceptions.

Your former statement on 'time' still does not necessarily relate to the subject, since we were speaking about interaction within and between angelic personalities. Personalities experience 'time' as they relate to other personalities because 'relativity', 'movement' and 'inter-action' is involved and is perceived sequentially.

'Death' is another subject matter. 'Death' in the matterial world is 'natural' as a process of disintegration/decay...the cycles of nature (conditional existence). Such depends on how we define and consider 'death' in the greater context of existence.


pj

 

[bucksplasher]

If "you" are completely "known" which we are in "eternity" than there is no "interplay" of personalities.

They angles knew at the moment of their creation "God's plan".

Some saw merit and some couldn't admit that they would have to "bow" and pay homage to a God made man...end of story.

We seem to have the same "problem with the UB people who refuse to admit, with all their "enlightenment" that Jesus is a member of the Trinity, one God in three persons.

I think it's probably too simple for them to admit that in this (as in most) the Church has it correct.

tWINs

 

[Caino]

If "you" are completely "known" which we are in "eternity" than there is no "interplay" of personalities.

They angles knew at the moment of their creation "God's plan".

Some saw merit and some couldn't admit that they would have to "bow" and pay homage to a God made man...end of story.

We seem to have the same "problem with the UB people who refuse to admit, with all their "enlightenment" that Jesus is a member of the Trinity, one God in three persons.

I think it's probably too simple for them to admit that in this (as in most) the Church has it correct.

tWINs

The Trinity concept of the RCC was borrowed from Geek philosophy. Jesus didn't teach the Trinity, in his divine wisdom he taught what needed to be taught in that age and that was to have faith through him to the Father. The "revelation" that God has a divine creator Son was revealed in the miraculous life of Jesus of Nazareth.

The UB reveals that Jesus or Christ Michael is a Son of the Trinity. There are many more Sons of descending order and of relative divinity. Our Son, the Planetary Prince, under the chain of authority up to Christ Michael, this Son betrayed his trust Led by Lucifer, a higher Son. Our world is still undergoing rehabilitation according to a plan.

,,,,when you say "end of story" that just represents the closing of your mind, and that is your choice.

Caino

 

[Caino]

Death is not normal; death is our enemy. It only seems normal because that's all we've experienced since Adam, with a few notable exceptions.

Our #1 enemy is a loss of faith, living faith. Doctrine formation is the death of living faith. "Belief fixates, faith liberates."

The Genesis story contains the jumbled up fragments of an ancient story. Adam and Eve were incarnate Sons of God who arrived on a populated world. They did "sin" but that just brought death (loss of the use of the tree of life) to them specifically. Men and women either die or are translated. In the ages to come more and more spiritual people will be "translated."

Death and Translation​

(623.1) 55:2.1 Natural, physical death is not a mortal inevitability. The majority of advanced evolutionary beings, citizens on worlds existing in the final era of light and life, do not die; they are translated directly from the life in the flesh to the morontia existence.

(623.2) 55:2.2 This experience of translation from the material life to the morontia state — fusion of the immortal soul with the indwelling Adjuster — increases in frequency commensurate with the evolutionary progress of the planet. At first only a few mortals in each age attain translation levels of spiritual progress, but with the onset of the successive ages of the Teacher Sons, more and more Adjuster fusions occur before the termination of the lengthening lives of these progressing mortals; and by the time of the terminal mission of the Teacher Sons, approximately one quarter of these superb mortals are exempt from natural death.

(623.3) 55:2.3 Farther along in the era of light and life the midway creatures or their associates sense the approaching status of probable soul-Adjuster union and signify this to the destiny guardians, who in turn communicate these matters to the finaliter group under whose jurisdiction this mortal may be functioning; then there is issued the summons of the Planetary Sovereign for such a mortal to resign all planetary duties, bid farewell to the world of his origin, and repair to the inner temple of the Planetary Sovereign, there to await morontia transit, the translation flash, from the material domain of evolution to the morontia level of prespirit progression.

(623.4) 55:2.4 When the family, friends, and working group of such a fusion candidate have forgathered in the morontia temple, they are distributed around the central stage whereon the fusion candidates are resting, meantime freely conversing with their assembled friends. A circle of intervening celestial personalities is arranged to protect the material mortals from the action of the energies manifest at the instant of the “life flash” which delivers the ascension candidate from the bonds of material flesh, thereby doing for such an evolutionary mortal everything that natural death does for those who are thereby delivered from the flesh.

(623.5) 55:2.5 Many fusion candidates may be assembled in the spacious temple at the same time. And what a beautiful occasion when mortals thus forgather to witness the ascension of their loved ones in spiritual flames, and what a contrast to those earlier ages when mortals must commit their dead to the embrace of the terrestrial elements! The scenes of weeping and wailing characteristic of earlier epochs of human evolution are now replaced by ecstatic joy and the sublimest enthusiasm as these God-knowing mortals bid their loved ones a transient farewell as they are removed from their material associations by the spiritual fires of consuming grandeur and ascending glory. On worlds settled in light and life, “funerals” are occasions of supreme joy, profound satisfaction, and inexpressible hope.

(623.6) 55:2.6 The souls of these progressing mortals are increasingly filled with faith, hope, and assurance. The spirit permeating those gathered around the translation shrine resembles that of the joyful friends and relatives who might assemble at a graduating exercise for one of their group, or who might come together to witness the conferring of some great honor upon one of their number. And it would be decidedly helpful if less advanced mortals could only learn to view natural death with something of this same cheerfulness and lightheartedness.

(624.1) 55:2.7 Mortal observers can see nothing of their translated associates subsequent to the fusion flash. Such translated souls proceed by Adjuster transit direct to the resurrection hall of the appropriate morontia-training world. These transactions concerned with the translation of living human beings to the morontia world are supervised by an archangel who was assigned to such a world on the day when it was first settled in light and life.

(624.2) 55:2.8 By the time a world attains the fourth stage of light and life, more than half the mortals leave the planet by translation from among the living. Such diminishment of death continues on and on, but I know of no system whose inhabited worlds, even though long settled in life, are entirely free from natural death as the technique of escape from the bonds of flesh. And until such a high state of planetary evolution is uniformly attained, the morontia-training worlds of the local universe must continue in service as educational and cultural spheres for the evolving morontia progressors. The elimination of death is theoretically possible, but it has not yet occurred according to my observation. Perhaps such a status may be attained during the faraway stretches of the succeeding epochs of the seventh stage of settled planetary life.

(624.3) 55:2.9 The translated souls of the flowering ages of the settled spheres do not pass through the mansion worlds. Neither do they sojourn, as students, on the morontia worlds of the system or constellation. They do not pass through any of the earlier phases of morontia life. They are the only ascending mortals who so nearly escape the morontia transition from material existence to semispirit status. The initial experience of such Son-seized mortals in the ascension career is in the services of the progression worlds of the universe headquarters. And from these study worlds of Salvington they go back as teachers to the very worlds they passed by, subsequently going on inward to Paradise by the established route of mortal ascension.

(624.4) 55:2.10 Could you but visit a planet in an advanced stage of development, you would quickly grasp the reasons for providing for the differential reception of ascending mortals on the mansion and higher morontia worlds. You would readily understand that beings passing on from such highly evolved spheres are prepared to resume their Paradise ascent far in advance of the average mortal arriving from a disordered and backward world like Urantia.

(624.5) 55:2.11 No matter from what level of planetary attainment human beings may ascend to the morontia worlds, the seven mansion spheres afford them ample opportunity to gain in experience as teacher-students all of everything which they failed to pass through because of the advanced status of their native planets.

(624.6) 55:2.12 The universe is unfailing in the application of these equalizing techniques designed to insure that no ascender shall be deprived of aught which is essential to his ascension experience.



Caino

 

[Caino]

For anyone following along who wants to understand time and space in relation to the Absolute and beings of relative divinity status paper #12 explains it to the finite mind.


http://www.truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=1257#U12_5_0​

Caino

 

[freelight]

the joy of learning

the joy of learning

Our #1 enemy is a loss of faith, living faith. Doctrine formation is the death of living faith. "Belief fixates, faith liberates."

The Genesis story contains the jumbled up fragments of an ancient story. Adam and Eve were incarnate Sons of God who arrived on a populated world. They did "sin" but that just brought death (loss of the use of the tree of life) to them specifically. Men and women either die or are translated. In the ages to come more and more spiritual people will be "translated."

Death and Translation​

(623.1) 55:2.1 Natural, physical death is not a mortal inevitability. The majority of advanced evolutionary beings, citizens on worlds existing in the final era of light and life, do not die; they are translated directly from the life in the flesh to the morontia existence.

(623.2) 55:2.2 This experience of translation from the material life to the morontia state — fusion of the immortal soul with the indwelling Adjuster — increases in frequency commensurate with the evolutionary progress of the planet. At first only a few mortals in each age attain translation levels of spiritual progress, but with the onset of the successive ages of the Teacher Sons, more and more Adjuster fusions occur before the termination of the lengthening lives of these progressing mortals; and by the time of the terminal mission of the Teacher Sons, approximately one quarter of these superb mortals are exempt from natural death.

(623.3) 55:2.3 Farther along in the era of light and life the midway creatures or their associates sense the approaching status of probable soul-Adjuster union and signify this to the destiny guardians, who in turn communicate these matters to the finaliter group under whose jurisdiction this mortal may be functioning; then there is issued the summons of the Planetary Sovereign for such a mortal to resign all planetary duties, bid farewell to the world of his origin, and repair to the inner temple of the Planetary Sovereign, there to await morontia transit, the translation flash, from the material domain of evolution to the morontia level of prespirit progression.

(623.4) 55:2.4 When the family, friends, and working group of such a fusion candidate have forgathered in the morontia temple, they are distributed around the central stage whereon the fusion candidates are resting, meantime freely conversing with their assembled friends. A circle of intervening celestial personalities is arranged to protect the material mortals from the action of the energies manifest at the instant of the “life flash” which delivers the ascension candidate from the bonds of material flesh, thereby doing for such an evolutionary mortal everything that natural death does for those who are thereby delivered from the flesh.

(623.5) 55:2.5 Many fusion candidates may be assembled in the spacious temple at the same time. And what a beautiful occasion when mortals thus forgather to witness the ascension of their loved ones in spiritual flames, and what a contrast to those earlier ages when mortals must commit their dead to the embrace of the terrestrial elements! The scenes of weeping and wailing characteristic of earlier epochs of human evolution are now replaced by ecstatic joy and the sublimest enthusiasm as these God-knowing mortals bid their loved ones a transient farewell as they are removed from their material associations by the spiritual fires of consuming grandeur and ascending glory. On worlds settled in light and life, “funerals” are occasions of supreme joy, profound satisfaction, and inexpressible hope.

(623.6) 55:2.6 The souls of these progressing mortals are increasingly filled with faith, hope, and assurance. The spirit permeating those gathered around the translation shrine resembles that of the joyful friends and relatives who might assemble at a graduating exercise for one of their group, or who might come together to witness the conferring of some great honor upon one of their number. And it would be decidedly helpful if less advanced mortals could only learn to view natural death with something of this same cheerfulness and lightheartedness.

(624.1) 55:2.7 Mortal observers can see nothing of their translated associates subsequent to the fusion flash. Such translated souls proceed by Adjuster transit direct to the resurrection hall of the appropriate morontia-training world. These transactions concerned with the translation of living human beings to the morontia world are supervised by an archangel who was assigned to such a world on the day when it was first settled in light and life.

(624.2) 55:2.8 By the time a world attains the fourth stage of light and life, more than half the mortals leave the planet by translation from among the living. Such diminishment of death continues on and on, but I know of no system whose inhabited worlds, even though long settled in life, are entirely free from natural death as the technique of escape from the bonds of flesh. And until such a high state of planetary evolution is uniformly attained, the morontia-training worlds of the local universe must continue in service as educational and cultural spheres for the evolving morontia progressors. The elimination of death is theoretically possible, but it has not yet occurred according to my observation. Perhaps such a status may be attained during the faraway stretches of the succeeding epochs of the seventh stage of settled planetary life.

(624.3) 55:2.9 The translated souls of the flowering ages of the settled spheres do not pass through the mansion worlds. Neither do they sojourn, as students, on the morontia worlds of the system or constellation. They do not pass through any of the earlier phases of morontia life. They are the only ascending mortals who so nearly escape the morontia transition from material existence to semispirit status. The initial experience of such Son-seized mortals in the ascension career is in the services of the progression worlds of the universe headquarters. And from these study worlds of Salvington they go back as teachers to the very worlds they passed by, subsequently going on inward to Paradise by the established route of mortal ascension.

(624.4) 55:2.10 Could you but visit a planet in an advanced stage of development, you would quickly grasp the reasons for providing for the differential reception of ascending mortals on the mansion and higher morontia worlds. You would readily understand that beings passing on from such highly evolved spheres are prepared to resume their Paradise ascent far in advance of the average mortal arriving from a disordered and backward world like Urantia.

(624.5) 55:2.11 No matter from what level of planetary attainment human beings may ascend to the morontia worlds, the seven mansion spheres afford them ample opportunity to gain in experience as teacher-students all of everything which they failed to pass through because of the advanced status of their native planets.

(624.6) 55:2.12 The universe is unfailing in the application of these equalizing techniques designed to insure that no ascender shall be deprived of aught which is essential to his ascension experience.



Caino

For those who have followed the UB threads and read enough of the 'mortal evolutionary ascension plan', they will understand terms like 'morontial' (intermediate state between the physical and pure-spirit stages) and the many worlds souls will visit and be educated on in their long journey towards Paradise, to finally behold the presence of the Universal Father at the heart of all things. So,...we have that empasse for those new to the UB, - until they understand the 'ascension process', reading the books description of such.


UB Fellowship



injoy!


pj

 

[Burning Bush]

Your former statement on 'time' still does not necessarily relate to the subject, since we were speaking about interaction within and between angelic personalities. Personalities experience 'time' as they relate to other personalities because 'relativity', 'movement' and 'inter-action' is involved and is perceived sequentially.

'Death' is another subject matter. 'Death' in the matterial world is 'natural' as a process of disintegration/decay...the cycles of nature (conditional existence). Such depends on how we define and consider 'death' in the greater context of existence.


pj

It does relate, because it points out another distortion in your doctrine. Again; time is the measurement of death. Something has to die to create time.

When you know as you are known, purely a spiritual reality, there is no "conversation", it's instantaneous because you're one in the Spirit.

 

[Burning Bush]

Our #1 enemy is a loss of faith, living faith. Doctrine formation is the death of living faith. "Belief fixates, faith liberates." Caino

By your own definition then, your "living faith" is dead.

 

[freelight]

events transpiring......

events transpiring......

It does relate, because it points out another distortion in your doctrine.

It does not relate necessarily, since we're referring to an event transpiring within the mind of a personality, relating to other personalities.

Again; time is the measurement of death. Something has to die to create time.

Time is a measurement of movement... as 'thoughts' (subjective or objective) relate to others. (such is basic to 'relativity')

There is no reason to bring a concept of 'death' into the context of Lucifer's rebellion. - this does not discount the account of Lucifers rebellion and those entities who sided with him in some cosmic event in the past, as the UB gives details on (something the Bible does not grant).

When you know as you are known, purely a spiritual reality, there is no "conversation", it's instantaneous because you're one in the Spirit.

Again, there is no reason to assume such metaphysical assumptions in the account of Lucifers rebellion, since we refer to such as taking place in 'time' and at a certain 'time' among created entities. The terms of space-time perception are logically referenced since we're dealing with events that are relatable to mortal mind.





pj

 

[freelight]

By your own definition then, your "living faith" is dead.

Like before, your translation skills have missed the mark, for the statement concerned emphasizes that dogma or 'doctrine' can become static, dead, lifeless....while 'living faith' is dynamic, alive, empowering...since it is born of the Spirit. True to what Jesus teaches, only a living faith and dynamic love avails in fulfilling the law and living the principles of the kingdom. This is what Jesus teaches, and heralds the power of the goodnews as centered in the 'Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of man'. Living faith avails and doing the will of God is the essential way. Such are fundamental to the Master's teaching.



pj