The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[CoCrucified]

Originally posted by rene
CoCrucified writes: As I've stated in other papers on this subject, there are numerous verses that clearly demonstrate that justification is by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 3:9; etc.).

My reply: What your FAILING to see is the other scriptures that directly speak to the need of baptism.

Failing to see that every believer was baptized.

Failing to see that none that is called a believer is ever unbaptized within scripture.

There are dozens and dozens of verses that mention faith alone. Only a few that mention baptism.

"Well over 150 times the Bible makes salvation conditioned solely on faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone as personal Savior. Here are just a very few examples of these: John 1:12; 3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:35, 47; Acts 16:31; Eph. 2:8-9; 2 Tim. 1:12. These statements not only teach that water baptism is not 'a condition to be met in order to be saved' or 'an act of obedience for those who are lost,' but eliminate every other human effort or attempt to merit favor with God."

"A basic and well understood rule for interpreting scripture is to seek to explain difficult passages in harmony with clear ones. In other words, if a passage has two or more possible interpretations, and only one of those fits well with other scriptures, the bible student is bound to select the interpretation which is in harmony with the rest of biblical revelation. Thus, though a passage may have two possible interpretations in isolation from other passages, but when placed along side of clear, unambiguous passages, only one interpretation exists."

"Those who argue that baptism is a necessary condition for salvation apparently do not agree with this interpretational method, and instead build their view of the condition of salvation on a few difficult 'problem passages' and then ignore or twist the clear ones. There are seven passages which are most often cited by those arguing for “baptismal regeneration.” These passages are said to support this view that “the act of water baptism is a condition to be met in order to be saved.”
(Above Ref. from: http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/eccles/baptism/wtrbptsm.htm )


If you'll check out the link below, they have a significant amount of evidence from Scripture of Saints who were saved before being baptized:
http://www.layhands.com/IsBaptismForSalvation1.htm
The section is about 2/3 of the way down the page and is titled: "Examples of People Who Were Saved Before Being Baptized."

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

I gave you a answer. You just didn't like it. I told you Jesus saves and yes you need Jesus to make it in heaven.

I didn't ask if we need Jesus to make it to heaven. I already know that. What I asked is do we need to be reborn to make it to heaven. Your answer had NOTHING to do with my question.

CoCrucified is able to answer my question. I asked him if we needed to be reborn to make it to heaven, and he said yes. You just couldn't answer that simple question. I wasn't asking you about wheter or not we need Jesus for salvation (again, I already know that). If that's what I was asking, then your answer would have been relevent to the question. But that's not what I asked.

I asked a yes or no question. You gave your usual tout which in this case had no answer to my question.

 

[Kevin]

CoCrucified,

"fist die?" I'm laughing with you, because I make lots of typos myself!

"Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,"
Romans 6:4-8 (NKJV)

Our "old man" (aka sin nature, the flesh, self) died with Christ. The answer to your question is yes.

Cool. So you agree that we need to be reborn to make it to heaven, and in order to do be reborn, we must die with Christ.

Now... according to the Bible, how do we die with Christ? I say it's through baptism:

Romans 6: 4
4) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, ...

This verse makes it quite clear that we die with Christ through baptism. Do you agree?

 

[Kevin]

Shaun,

What about believers who are not able to be baptized before they die?

Ah yes. The what if scenarios. This has come up before, and I doubt this will be the last. Here's the deal, you can come up with all the "what if" scenarios all you want, but that won't change the word of God.

I could come right back at you and say "What if someone was being preached the gospel and before they had a chance to believe they had a heart attack and died.". Should we use that as an exuse not to believe?

We will all stand before God someday and give an accountance to Him. For the people who died before they had a chance to be baptized... maybe He will have mercy on them knowing their intent and their inability to do it... then again, maybe He won't. He will decide. The same rules apply about for the person who died before they had a chance to believe.

Point in fact, the vast majority of people are certainly capable of being baptized. And to use extreme, rare case senarios to discount what God expects of us, to believe and be baptized (Mark 16:16), is very weak and dangerous. I would not want to be standing before God and have only "what if" senarios as a defense for when God asks why you didn't obey His commandments.

If a person works in a work office and is disabled and can't use a computer, should that then be blanketed to everybody else to use as an exuse not to use computers, even though they are expected to use them and are fully capable? No. That's rediculous.

"What if" scenarios do not change the word of God, or what He excpects of us.

 

[rene]

CoCrucified writes: There are dozens and dozens of verses that mention faith alone. Only a few that mention baptism.

Does the number of one make the other invalid? Since it is known that the bible does not contradict itself - evidently there is something in the equation.

Because there are scriptures that state directly opposite of what you suggest - you can't be totally right. The same is true of those that speak of water baptism as the only sign of salvation.

What I am seeing is that both are an important part. That a person coming to the Lord is going to have to have both.

Baptism alone without faith is a public bath.
Someone saying that they have faith but yet they can't seem to follow the very teachings that Jesus left with the apostles before He went to sit at the right hand of the Father, more than questionable.

All believers within the NT followed BOTH of the teachings.

Going thru and thinking on all that has been placed here, seeking within the bible, and praying about it - such seems the only biblical approach - that is if what I am seeing is correct. A Christian, a follower and disciple of Christ has BOTH.

 

[CoCrucified]

Originally posted by Kevin
CoCrucified,

Cool. So you agree that we need to be reborn to make it to heaven, and in order to do be reborn, we must die with Christ.

Now... according to the Bible, how do we die with Christ? I say it's through baptism:

Romans 6: 4
4) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, ...

This verse makes it quite clear that we die with Christ through baptism. Do you agree?

Kevin,

Yes, but you are assuming this is the baptism with water. I believe this is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which we receive upon conversion. I do believe the baptism with water pictures what has already happened to the believer upon conversion.

Do you believe a born-again believer receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion and that the Holy Spirit always abides within the believer, or do you believe the Holy Spirit comes and goes as we see in the Old Testament?

 

[CoCrucified]

Rene,

When I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior many years ago, I had a one-on-one Bible study with someone from each viewpoint. After much prayer, seeking God's guidance and studying the issue with the two ministers and by myself, I came to the belief that we are saved by faith alone, apart from works.

I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as a witness and testimony of my newfound faith in Jesus Christ. No one attending my baptism would ever have come to the conclusion that I was taking a "public bath." I've never heard of anyone taking a public bath in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and saying, "Buried with Him in baptism, raised in newness of life." That would be a very unusual "public bath" indeed.

Please prayerfully consider these matters and also if at all possible, please check out this link:
http://www.layhands.com/IsBaptismForSalvation1.htm
I might point out that I have a number of theological differences from the person who wrote this, but they do give a good, thorough and detailed examination of this important doctrine. From many of your postings here, I suspect that you might have more agreement with the author on issues other than baptism, than I do.

I often pray that if any of my beliefs are incorrect, that God will clearly lead me into all truth. I know when we stand before God, every one of us will find we had incorrect ideas. Salvation happens to be the most important one.

 

[Kevin]

CoCrucifed,

Yes, but you are assuming this is the baptism with water.

Yes, that is correct.

I believe this is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which we receive upon conversion.

So you believe we are automatically baptized with the HS upon believing the word of God?

I do believe the baptism with water pictures what has already happened to the believer upon conversion.

Common theory, but where does the Bible support it?

Do you believe a born-again believer receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion and that the Holy Spirit always abides within the believer

Well, you and I have a different idea of conversion. I don't believe a person is converted until he/she is water baptized for the remission of sins. And yes, I believe the HS always abides with the believer after conversion.

I'm glad to see that you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. We just disagree on what kind of baptism is it.

Let me ask you this... do you think the baptism that Paul spoke of in Romans 6 is the same baptism that Christ commanded in Matt. 28:19-20?

Matthew 28:19,20
19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20) teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

 

[rene]

Shaun wrote: I think the main thing between both groups here that is problematic is that one group argues that baptism is necessary for salvation, while the other argues that the exact point of salvation is before the baptism, when we accept Jesus Christ and His teachings. The point we're trying to make is not that baptism is a bad thing--I have said it before, and I'll say it again, baptism is something all Christians should do. But, as a commandment, it does not "seal" salvation in any way more than "loving your neighbor as yourself" does. It simply "keeps the faith".

I'd like your opinions on this perspective.

My reply: I am going to quote a man that is a Baptist minister on this one - mostly cause I liked the way that he worded it. He said, "I don't believe that baptism saves - BUT - I have never met a Christian that wasn't, and wouldn't be all that sure about the ones that haven't." He and I came to a sort of understanding on it - based mostly on we agreed on the majors - that baptism was something that a Christian would do, something within the bible that was said by Jesus. Our disagreement was only on when the point of salvation took place. Not that either of us disagreed that it DID take place - just questions about when. So reality was - we really pretty well agreed when it got right down to it.

I mean - does it really matter what ANY of us think about when a person is saved? As long as they do everything with the intent within their heart that they want to draw closer to God, to have their sins forgiven so that they can have relationship with Him, baptized? The only ones that REALLY know is God and Jesus.

 

[Shaun]

Kevin, again. I'm not making the argument that we should not be baptized. I'm making the argument that we should not believe that water baptism is the point of salvation. There's a HUGE difference.

Originally posted by Kevin
So you believe we are automatically baptized with the HS upon believing the word of God?

Ephesians 1:13-14
13In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Let me ask you this... do you think the baptism that Paul spoke of in Romans 6 is the same baptism that Christ commanded in Matt. 28:19-20?

Ephesians 4:4-6
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (said by John)

Mark 10:39
They said to Him, "We are able." So Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized;

Okay, so wait. All of the believers Jesus were talking to had already been baptized by water. Why would they need to be baptized again if Jesus meant water? Because he was talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Pretty straightforward, huh?

Originally posted by ReneI mean - does it really matter what ANY of us think about when a person is saved? As long as they do everything with the intent within their heart that they want to draw closer to God, to have their sins forgiven so that they can have relationship with Him, baptized? The only ones that REALLY know is God and Jesus.

So if it doesn't matter what any of us think about whether or not we think if a person is saved, then why should we force baptism upon someone, claiming that they are "not saved" even if they are truly desiring to know God. Why should we call people Heathens when they work out the commandments to follow the Lord in their own time? I still have trouble loving my neighbor as myself--but that doesn't mean I am a heathen.

 

[CoCrucified]

Originally posted by Kevin
So you believe we are automatically baptized with the HS upon believing the word of God?

Yes, upon accepting the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Common theory, but where does the Bible support it?

"The key to understanding the baptism by the Spirit is that it is a positional truth. It is not an experience; it has nothing to do with feelings. The baptism is an instantaneous work comprised of many simultaneous acts of the sovereign God. The following comments deal with but five of these acts which concern us here."

"Observing what transpired at Pentecost we see that the first act was regeneration, or new birth, by the Spirit (Titus 3:5; John 3:6)."

"When the Holy Spirit came, He was to indwell the believers. Hitherto, He had been with them; now He was to abide in them forever, ministering the risen life of the Lord Jesus (John 14:16, 17; Colossians 1:27)."

"At the same time, He baptized each of them into union with Christ at the right hand of the Father on high (Ephesians 2:6). This was the fulfillment of our Lord's promise, "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you" (John 14:20). The believer is not baptized in or into the Spirit, as the charismatics teach. The Holy Spirit is the Baptizer, or Agent of baptism, not the element into which one is baptized: "For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body" (I Corinthians 12:13). The "one body" is the Body of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is the Church (Colossians 1:18, 24)."

"Upon believing, each was sealed with the indwelling Spirit. This has a threefold significance: a finished transaction; a mark of ownership; a guarantee of safe delivery [security]. "In whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest [down payment] of our inheritance, unto the [final] redemption of God's own possession" (Ephesians 1:13, 14, ASV)."

"Also, each received the anointing of the Spirit, which is closely related to His indwelling. This too, abides and is not a repeated act (I John 2:20, 27). "Now he who...hath anointed us, is God, who hath also sealed us, and given us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts" (II Corinthians 1:21, 22)."

"Hence each believer from Pentecost to this day has been, by the Holy Spirit, regenerated, indwelt, baptized into Christ, sealed and anointed--all apart from feelings. These are separate acts, but simultaneously wrought--and non-experiential. Faith in these scriptural facts is absolutely necessary if the believer is to be invulnerable to the siren call of the charismatic claims."

"The baptism by the Spirit involves more than being "immersed" into the Body of Christ. It means to be brought into organic union with that which is capable of bringing about a change. This baptism is the sovereign act by which the believer's position is changed from death in the first Adam to life in the Last Adam. The Christian becomes a completely new creation in Christ Jesus (II Corinthians 5:17). "Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with Him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3, 4, ASV)."

(Above by Christian Growth Author, Miles J. Stanford - The Line Drawn)
The Baptism by the Spirit by Miles J. Stanford

Well, you and I have a different idea of conversion. I don't believe a person is converted until he/she is water baptized for the remission of sins. And yes, I believe the HS always abides with the believer after conversion.

I simply cannot reconcile how a work done by us could save us. We can only be saved by the finished work of Jesus Christ upon the cross. This is applied to us by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I'm glad to see that you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. We just disagree on what kind of baptism is it.

I'd put it this way, I believe that the Holy Spirit does the baptizing. Our only part in it is to believe God's word and accept the free gift of salvation through faith. I'd say you believe in a physical work of being baptized in water.

Please forgive me if I've missed an earlier posting of yours, but can you please tell me why you do not consider water baptism to be "works?"

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:8-9 (NKJV)

"Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
Romans 3:20 (NKJV)

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."
Romans 3:27-28 (NKJV)

"For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.' Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Romans 4:3-5 (KJV)

"(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),"
Romans 9:11 (NKJV)

"And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."
Romans 11:6 (NKJV)

"who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,"
2 Tim 1:9 (NKJV)

"not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
Titus 3:5-7 (NKJV)

Let me ask you this... do you think the baptism that Paul spoke of in Romans 6 is the same baptism that Christ commanded in Matt. 28:19-20?

Matthew 28:19,20
19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20) teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

No, because the baptism of the Spirit is a work of the Holy Spirit, thus the Holy Spirit can only perform it. The baptism performed by the Apostles was a physical act of immersing believers as an act of identification with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and a witness to others. Similar to how Jews were circumcised as a testimony and seal of their faith. I believe Romans 6 is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I believe Matt. 28:19-20 is commanding the Apostles to perform water baptism.

 

[CoCrucified]

Originally posted by rene
My reply: I am going to quote a man that is a Baptist minister on this one - mostly cause I liked the way that he worded it. He said, "I don't believe that baptism saves - BUT - I have never met a Christian that wasn't, and wouldn't be all that sure about the ones that haven't." He and I came to a sort of understanding on it - based mostly on we agreed on the majors - that baptism was something that a Christian would do, something within the bible that was said by Jesus. Our disagreement was only on when the point of salvation took place. Not that either of us disagreed that it DID take place - just questions about when. So reality was - we really pretty well agreed when it got right down to it.

I mean - does it really matter what ANY of us think about when a person is saved? As long as they do everything with the intent within their heart that they want to draw closer to God, to have their sins forgiven so that they can have relationship with Him, baptized? The only ones that REALLY know is God and Jesus.

Rene,

I totally agree with the quote by the Baptist Minister.

I do however, believe it does matter what we think about it, because faith demands that we put our trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. If we place any faith in our own works, we are nullifying the grace of God.

Back when I was studying this matter with the two ministers with differing views, one thing that I got out of it, was that both sincerely believed if your faith was misplaced in this matter, you could not be saved.

"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
Gal 5:4 (NKJV)

 

[rene]

" Do you believe a born-again believer receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion and that the Holy Spirit always abides within the believer, or do you believe the Holy Spirit comes and goes as we see in the Old Testament?"

My reply: Jesus said that He would leave the Comforter He left it for believers till His return.

 

[rene]

"So if it doesn't matter what any of us think about whether or not we think if a person is saved, then why should we force baptism upon someone, claiming that they are "not saved" even if they are truly desiring to know God. Why should we call people Heathens when they work out the commandments to follow the Lord in their own time? I still have trouble loving my neighbor as myself--but that doesn't mean I am a heathen."

My reply: Mankinds thoughts are not the same as the thoughts of God's 'His ways are not our ways'. We may THINK someone is saved - but they may not be - remember the versee in Matt. 7 I believe where it directly talks to those that are 'wolfs in sheeps clothing', that they made the claim to have done prophecy and healings even - just that it turned out not to be from God? Same thing here. Just that such still doesn't negate the words that Jesus spoke about baptism, nor the other scriptures that speak of it as the believer being 'buried with Jesus thru baptism' as has been quoted several times.

Jesus said it - that should settle it. Jesus tells his apostles to baptise as something to est the church - still should being done since he hasn't indicated otherwise.

 

[Shaun]

We must also realize that they whom we think are not saved might actually be saved.

My true opinion? I really think baptism should be something that we focus on after we get them to believe in Jesus Christ. It's hard enough just getting there--why worry about something that they'll do anyway if they believe and have faith in Him? Shoving it down their throat before they've even repented is a quick turnoff.

 

[rene]

""You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
Gal 5:4 (NKJV)"

My reply: Great verse. The thing of it is - I have pointed out where it was Jesus doing the talking and leaving instructions. If one can pick and choose what they want to believe from the words of Jesus - can you imagine what some people are going to come up with - have come up with?

I am just one of those people that is going to follow the example of Jesus and His words.

 

[CoCrucified]

Originally posted by rene
""You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
Gal 5:4 (NKJV)"

My reply: Great verse. The thing of it is - I have pointed out where it was Jesus doing the talking and leaving instructions. If one can pick and choose what they want to believe from the words of Jesus - can you imagine what some people are going to come up with - have come up with?

I am just one of those people that is going to follow the example of Jesus and His words.

Rene,

When there are apparent contradictions in Scripture, as with baptism, you should never say. "Well, I'm just going to follow the words of Jesus." If you truly believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and is infallible, you must study out the apparent contradiction and reconcile what all of the passages are actually saying. "Not of works" means "Not of works." Water baptism is a work. Baptism by the Holy Spirit upon conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit and not our work.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
2 Tim 3:16-17 (NKJV)
Not just the words in red-letters in your New Testament.

 

[CoCrucified]

Just another thought, Jesus said,
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell."
Matt 5:30 (NKJV)
Would it be appropiate for me to say I'm going to, "follow the example of Jesus and His words" and cut off my hand?

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."
2 Tim 2:15-16 (KJV)

 

[Freak]

Rene, has believed water perfects her faith. She is sadly mistaken. God has told us to: Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus is our perfector not some water.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: What About Those Who can't Be Baptized?

Re: Re: What About Those Who can't Be Baptized?

Originally posted by Shaun
So wait a minute--if they can't be baptized for some illness/other reason, then Christ will make up for it?

Why is this different than a normal person? Isn't "Christ making up for us" the whole point of the cross?

If you say water baptism is essential for salvation, you cannot make small exceptions. That is called hypocrisy.

Now, Shaun, did I say that Christ will make up for it? No, I said Christ will judge righteously on the matter. He will judge all men according to their works, whether they are good or evil (Matthew 16:27; 2 Tim 4:14; Prov. 24:12).

Bapatism Is Essential To Obeying The Gospel. What Shall Be The State Of Those Who Will Not ObeyThe Gospel?

Paul further says:

2 Thess 1:7-10
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Now, go back to the end of the line!

JustAChristian :thumb: