The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[rene]

Ah - the church is called the "bride of Christ". Most def. is part of and into Christ. The church is those that are in Him - Christian.

Your not making your self very clear - or the point that your making - if it is how your presenting it is what you mean - is not based upon scripture when it is studied out.

 

[Shaun]

I agree with your points. None have addressed them yet.

Rene,
Could it be that we are studying the Word, making sure that we are strongly confirmed in the doctrines we state, as well as praying to God about what we say so that it might be of His will rather than our own?
I spend time when thinking about these things, and I spend time thinking about your arguments, and trying to make sure I see all sides. I don't spew out refutations to argue--I study, construct and debate to learn and refine my beliefs.
I do not claim perfect doctrine, and my doctrine is always liable to change. But I do not rush such matters of importance. Be patient, and you shall receive answers.

 

[rene]

Shaun, you have been polite not just on this thread but on another as well. I totally understand. The one comments I made were - more of flustration at some of the comments by others. Seems that that they are placed out there more to disrupt any serious discussion. I have to admit that some of them have me sitting here at the computer, shaking my head and wondering how in the WORLD they jumped to the supposed point that they want to suggest. Just sit here and wonder who in the world taught them some of this stuff - since they didn't find it in the bible.

So if I insulted you - I am honestly sorry about that.

I freely admit that I see both sides. I don't believe that I have yet fully grasped the points.

 

[Shaun]

There was no offense taken--just remember that these doctrines that each of us profess were actually stated by men before who spent lives coming to the same conclusions that we try to come to in an Internet forum. I especially tend to take my time and study the Word when a discussion such as this determines salvation--or at least our perception of it--God ultimately determines it.

Note: I am not saying one should not be baptized; rather, I believe all believers should be baptized. I encourage all to take into perspective that we are not debating baptism--instead, we are debating the point at which one recieves salvation.

And rene, I completely agree. This forum, being a free-post-without-moderation forum, tends to have its cooks and spam. It can get frustrating, but instead of posting, take it to God. He'll help you out on your frustration.

Remember, this is just the Internet.

 

[rene]

I know that it is just the internet.

I also know that there is a real flesh and blood person that types the stuff. I am one of those that has serious concerns for others - esp those that want to suggest that 'wisdom' when they reflect the opposite. Feel sorry for them. In many ways, I personally know where they are at. Have been there myself - more than once - depending on the topic.

 

[geralduk]

I think BAPTISM and its PRINCIPLES seem to be the most talked of and 'debated' than any other post in the forums.
WHY?
Seeing that it is only the MILK of the Word and according to Paul had to be done and then GONE ON "TO PERFECTION"
Yet the devil would have us going around in circles in the wilderness if he could with interminable debate.
God spoke the WHOLE message in Christ what He had spoken in PART and in divers ways and in sundry times before.
So then we should look to CHRIST and see what HE DID then go and do likewise.
But soem have BAPTISM the be all and end all of everything.
even as some have made being BORNagain the be all and end all of everything.
You may do so but you will be robbed if you allow it.
For even as the crossing of Jordan by the children of ISREAL was not THE thing but was PART and parcel of the WHOLE.
So was it for Christ.
They passed through the waters to ENTER into thier INHERITENCE.
But soem did ot through unbelief.or rather through believing the WRONG message.
The LORD also passed through the waters to ENTER into that which God had given Him.
For they after crossing left ALL that was behind THEM IN THE WILDERNESS and entered into then promise.
He also left the life of the flesh and now walked after the Spirit.
They after JORDAN began to do the WORKS of God which BEFORE they had done none.
He AFTER also began to do the works of GOD .and to" BIND UP THE STRONG MAN........."

Here then is WHY there is so much 'heat' and smoke' but liitle FIRE.
For while you debate and learn but do not come to aknowledge of the truth you do ot go over and overcome the "gates of ....."the enemy
Or take that which God has promised .

For in truth the TRUTH of BATISM can be EASILY found if one is WILLING to be LED by the Holy Spirit and not by" mans wisdom" and interlect alone.
For God has Promised it that when the Holy Spirit has come ..."HE will LEAD you into ALL truth(and therefore of baptism also) and when you know the truth the truth shall make you free.
The children of ISREAL were NOT saved BY CROSSING OVER JORDAN because they were saved already! But before they were saved FROM sin and the power of sin Egypt being a type and shadow of the World and pharoah of SATAN.
But in the crossing of Jordan that TOO was PART of thier SALAVATION which the previos generation ROBBED THEMSELVES OF.
For though they were SAVED yet they suffered LOSS.

Jesus said "I am the WAY the truth and the LIFE....."
"What He saw the FATHER doing that did He"
So as He said "as the FATHER SENT ME SO SEND I YOU"
It is clear that what we see the Son doing that we should do also.
and so to those who swing in the opposite direction and say we need NOT be baptised THEY ARE ALSO WRONG.
But not unto death.if they are saved.
But those who seek to be justyfied by thier WORK of BAPTISM they aslo are wrong for Christ was as iot were saved and the children of IOSREAKL WERE SAVED BEFORE they crossed over.
and it was for RIGHTOUSNESS sake ALREADY counted TO THEM that they conformed thier BODIES to what thier HEART had ALREADY done.

Is it any wonder then that the WORLD the FLESH and the DEVIL would have us sitting on the WRONG side of JORDAN DEABATING!
seeing that by doing so thier 'cities' or "STONGHOLDS " are safe.

So WHICH message ARE WE listening to?
The MAJORITY mesaage THEN was the WRONG one.
It is up to each to decide or rather find out before God what it is today.

Make no mistake God means us to KNOW the truth for He is nit willing that ANY should perish(in the wildwerness) but that all the children of God shoukld come to aknowkldge of the truth.

So if there is confusion and uncertainty it is NOT of God.
For God is God of ORDER .

but if any man lakcketh wisdom LET HIM ASK and God will give it to him.

You CANNOT have faith in soemthing you are not FULLY PERSUADED OF.
and so we should not settle for ANY uncertaintY OVER IT.
That gives us no liberty to be bombastic or bigoted.
But is it not written that He will lead us to GREAN PASTURES AND TO STILL WATERS?
tHEN THE TRUTH GIVES US liberty and draws us closer to God and draws from us MORE comittment TO THE WORK and KINGDOM OF God.
if it does not then there is soemthing wrong.

 

[JustAChristian]

Why Was Jesus Baptized?

Why Was Jesus Baptized?

Originally posted by CoCrucified
Since Jesus Christ never sinned, He obviously wasn't being baptized in order to be saved, just as we are not baptized to be saved.

Why do you think Jesus was baptized?

"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
2 Cor 5:21 (NKJV)

Why was Jesus baptized?

"And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him" (Matthew 3:15).

Why should we be baptized?

In order to fulfill all righteousness for Jesus left us an example that we should walk in his steps (John 13:15; Phil. 2:5).

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Kevin]

Hello, rene

Hello, rene

rene,

I agree with your points. None have addressed them yet.

It really seems as if the many verses that do state what some don't want to believe - want to be ignored vs taking an honest a serious look at them.

You'll find that the lack of addressing points largely contributes to the incredible length of this thread. I've been with this thread off and on from page 2. I've seen many "replies" to our agruments, but not many "answers".

A perfect example is Freak. I'm sure you've noticed that he can't even answer my simple yes or no question, despite the fact that I was able to directly answer his. And this isn't the first time.

By the way, it's good to see another faithful member standing up for the truth. Good work, rene!

 

[CoCrucified]

Re: Why Was Jesus Baptized?

Re: Why Was Jesus Baptized?

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Why was Jesus baptized?

"And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him" (Matthew 3:15).

Why should we be baptized?

In order to fulfill all righteousness for Jesus left us an example that we should walk in his steps (John 13:15; Phil. 2:5).

JustAChristian :angel:

And yet, nothing said that indicates it was for salvation. Water baptism is a work of righteousness.

 

[CoCrucified]

Re: Hello, rene

Re: Hello, rene

Originally posted by Kevin
You'll find that the lack of addressing points largely contributes to the incredible length of this thread. I've been with this thread off and on from page 2. I've seen many "replies" to our agruments, but not many "answers".

May I suggest one question per post? Some of us have limited time to read these and reply.

 

[CoCrucified]

Here's my one question:

Since there are many, many passages about salvation that do not mention baptism, then if water baptism is a requirement to be saved why would this be ommitted from these verses?

I cannot imagine that if baptism were essential to be saved, that it would ever be left out of any passage regarding salvation.

For example:
"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, 'Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.'
Romans 10:9-11 (NKJV)

 

[rene]

geralduk wrote: So then we should look to CHRIST and see what HE DID then go and do likewise. But soem have BAPTISM the be all and end all of everything.

My reply: Speaking ONLY for myself and what I have found, such is not the case. What I have seen is that there are many that would

a) suggest that it isn't needed (which approach goes totally against what you yourself wrote)

b) say that such is not needed 'today'

C) say that the words that Jesus stated don't mean what they mean - or - that since they were said under the 'old covenant' that it isn't valid in the 'new covenant'

Such comments need to be addressed from a biblical perspective.

 

[rene]

CoCrucified - It isn't that people don't see the scriptures that you and some others have shown.

A problem develops when those scriptures that DO speak of baptism is ignored.

 

[CoCrucified]

Originally posted by rene
CoCrucified - It isn't that people don't see the scriptures that you and some others have shown.

A problem develops when those scriptures that DO speak of baptism is ignored.

I'm not ignoring any of them. There are references to water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Also, look at what Jesus said in John chapter 3:
"Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'
John 3:5-6 (NKJV)
Notice how Jesus speaks of being born of water/born of the flesh and born of the Spirit. Born of water refers to our natural birth. Just as we speak of the "water breaking" when a woman gives birth. This is mistaken for water baptism.

This is also why "born of water" precedes "born of the Spirit." Physical birth comes before spiritual rebirth.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Why Was Jesus Baptized?

Re: Re: Why Was Jesus Baptized?

Originally posted by CoCrucified
And yet, nothing said that indicates it was for salvation. Water baptism is a work of righteousness.

"...all thy commandments are righteousness" (Psalms 119:172).

Baptism for the remission of sins is a commandment of God (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Acts 10:47-48)

Not every commandment in the Bible is for us to obey. There are commandments for certain groups in certain ages (Deut 5:3). We must be able to differentiate when needed. Righteousness can not be obtained by us without obeying the applicable commandments of God given for us to obey. Faith in Christ, repentance, confession of Jesus as God's Son, and baptism are for us to obey in order to fulfill all righteousness.

JustAChristian :angel:
________________________________________________

"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness" (Romans 6:17-18 AV)

 

[Kevin]

CoCrucified,

May I suggest one question per post? Some of us have limited time to read these and reply.

I can assure you the legnth was not the problem. What I meant is that you can "reply" to a post while totally not addressing the argument at hand. A person like this has "replied", but not "answered".

Besisdes, I did try a simple little one question at a time approach very recently. Only one person answered, and he was incable of giving me a direct answer, which only proves my point further.

It's probably a few pages back by now, but I was asking anybody who doesn't believe in baptism's necessity a simple question - do we need to be reborn to make it to heaven. Freak... well... replied. He couldn't answer the simple yes or no question, even though I directly answered his question.

 

[Kevin]

Your question, answered.

Your question, answered.

CoCrucified,

Here's my one question:

Since there are many, many passages about salvation that do not mention baptism, then if water baptism is a requirement to be saved why would this be ommitted from these verses?

I cannot imagine that if baptism were essential to be saved, that it would ever be left out of any passage regarding salvation.

For example:
"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, 'Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.'

I'll answer your question, and I'll use your own logic against you. The basis of your agrument against baptism here is that it is ommitted in verses throughout the Bible that have to do with salvation. Well, let's see how that logic stands up.

You are taking ONE verse and making the entire doctrine of salvation without taking other verses into consideration.

Here's what I mean.

Repentance is required for salvation, is not? Christ says that those who do repent will perish (Luke 13:3).

Your verse says NOTHING about repentance. So if we base our entire doctrine of your ONE verse, all we have to do is confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts and we will be saved, even if we don't repent (which means to change) from our sinful lives. We can go on living a defiant sinful life towards God and still be saved as long as we believe and confess. Repentance isn't nessary because it isn't mentioned in that verse, just as baptism is not mention. Does that sound logical?

Another verse that your camp likes to tout is Epesians 2:8 - that we are saved by grace through faith. Well, if we take that ONE verse and make an entire doctrine out of it, then we are simply saved if we have faith. Once again, nothing mentioned about repentance - or confession with the mouth as your previous verse states. Is there a contradiction? Jesus says we need to repent (Luke 13:3) and so did Peter (Acts 2:38) for salvation. Do we now not have to repent because it's omitted out of that verse? We just have to have faith and that's it. We don't have to turn from our sinful lifestyle or anything. Just beleive. Does this make sense?

By the way, there was nothing mentioned about the blood of Christ in either of those passages... is that now not essential for our salvation either, since it's not mentioned in those verses?

Do I have to go on? An argument of omission is weak, and doesn't stand up to the truth- the whole counsel of God (in other words more than a few select verses).

Take the whole counsel of God, not part.

The fact is that baptism IS tied in with salvation:

Mark 16:16
16) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 3:21
21) There is also an antitype which now saves us-baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

How long will people continue to ignore what is plainly written - that baptism plays a role in salvation!

 

[CoCrucified]

Re: Re: Re: Why Was Jesus Baptized?

Re: Re: Re: Why Was Jesus Baptized?

Originally posted by JustAChristian
"...all thy commandments are righteousness" (Psalms 119:172).

How does the above verse apply to this?

Baptism for the remission of sins is a commandment of God (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Acts 10:47-48)

One verse at a time:
Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
"This verse is a tough one. It seems to say that baptism is part of salvation. But we know, from other scriptures that it isn't, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, repent and get baptized."
Answer from:
http://www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm

Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
"This verse is frequently used by baptismal regenerationists to show that baptism is necessary for salvation. It says he who believes and is baptized will be saved. Therefore, they conclude that baptism is a necessary part of becoming saved. But, does this verse prove that baptism is necessary for salvation? Not at all.
Mark 16:16 does not say that baptism is a requirement for salvation. Let me show you why. I could easily say that he who believes and goes to church will be saved. That is true. But it is belief that saves, not belief and going to church. Likewise, if you believe and read your Bible, you'll be saved. But it isn't reading your Bible that saves you. Rather, belief in Christ, in His sacrifice, is what saves. As I've stated in other papers on this subject, there are numerous verses that clearly demonstrate that justification is by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 3:9; etc.). Belief in what God has done, not what man can do, is what results in salvation. Baptism is simply a public demonstration of the inner work of regeneration. This is why the rest of the verse says, "...but he who does not to believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16 focuses on the issue of belief, not baptism."
Answer from:
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Mark_16_16.htm
I have only posted about 1/3 of the answer, please check out the link.

Acts 10:47-48, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days."
After one has received the Holy Spirit as a result of being born again, then they are instructed to be baptized.

Not every commandment in the Bible is for us to obey. There are commandments for certain groups in certain ages (Deut 5:3). We must be able to differentiate when needed.

No disagreement here. This is what we call "Dispensationalism." I might add that this also applies to your initial quote of Psalms 119:172. As the Apostle Paul details in Romans Chapter 7, the Christian's relationship to the law is different than that of the Old Testament Israelites.

Righteousness can not be obtained by us without obeying the applicable commandments of God given for us to obey. Faith in Christ, repentance, confession of Jesus as God's Son, and baptism are for us to obey in order to fulfill all righteousness.

Correct and Incorrect. As born again Christians, our righteousness comes only from Jesus Christ:

"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Gal 2:21 (NKJV)

"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
2 Cor 5:21 (NKJV)

"And John tried to prevent Him, saying, 'I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?' But Jesus answered and said to him, 'Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.' Then he allowed Him."
Matt 3:14-15 (NKJV)
Jesus was already righteous when He was baptized. He was not baptized to become righteous, as He was already without sin. He was fulfilling righteousness, just as we do when we obey God's commandment to be baptized. i.e. If I preach the Gospel to someone, I am fulfilling righteousness. I was already saved, I am just following Jesus' command to spread the Gospel. Preaching the Gospel (an act of righteousness) does not save me.

 

[Shaun]

What about believers who are not able to be baptized before they die?

 

[CoCrucified]

Originally posted by Kevin
...do we need to be reborn to make it to heaven.

I don't know what response you'd expect to get, but the answer is clearly yes!

"Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:3 (NKJV)