The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[JustAChristian]

Keep It Going!

Keep It Going!

All this from someone who insists he's gone head-to-head with otherworldly bug-uglies...

Good to see you back, Freak...

This is the 320th post on this thread, and the Bible still says:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:5).

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." (1 John 5:1).

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." (1 John 4:7).

"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." (1 John 2:29).

From the above it must follow that the one wh "believeth," "loveth" and doeth righteousness" is "born of God" but, "all thy commandments are righteousness," Ps 119:172. Then the one who does the commandments of God is born of God.

Are you doing the commandments of God. What about this one?
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). O, you say that baptism is not a commandment? Well, Peter didn't know that it wasn't a commandment for to the house of Cornelius Peter..."And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:48). They had received the presence of the Holy Spirit earlier, but now Peter says that they must be immersed (for that is what the Greek word means). And why, "For (in order to or into--for that is what "eis" the Greek word really means) the remission of sins. Sins are remitted to God after the baptismal cleansing of the blood of Jesus Christ (Acts 22:16) Zacheriah once prophesied "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness." (Zach 13:1). When the Roman soilder opened the side of Jesus on the cross, a "fountain" of the blood and water of Jesus Christ came forth, for cleansing from sin--to the Jew first, but also to the Gentile (Romans 1:16; Romans 2:10). Have you been cleansed in the "fountain". Be baptized (immersed) in faith of the scriptures, in order that your sins may be forgiven.

JustAChristian

 

[c.moore]

Hello Hopeof Glory
I like you post you got it going on with the truth.
The soiritual baptism is that which brings salvation.

AMEN.

Ian day you also have the truth and knows what the bible is saying about the baptism.

I have this same disscusion with the cult mormons they stand on this water baptism theololgy.

I pray other christian will get the right revalation of the bible.
peace

 

[servantofChrist]

Hello "Freak,"

You said, "Salvation is by faith and faith alone." And you cited several scriptures pertaining to salvation, saying that none of them mentioned baptism.

Let's take one of those verses you cited and use YOUR OWN reasoning and see where it takes us:

You cited Acts 16:31, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And you said that baptism is not mentioned in those words, therefore, you reason, baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Those words do not mention REPENTANCE either. So according to YOUR reasoning, repentance is NOT necessary for salvation either. And, according to your reasoning, neither is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ necessary for salvation, because they are not mentioned at all in Acts 16:31 either!

Your use of the scriptures is erroneous, "Freak." You need to read and apply ALL scriptures in the N. T. that pertain to our salvation, not just a few.

You believe and teach that baptism does not save a person. But the apostle Peter, SPEAKING BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, said: "BAPTISM NOW SAVES YOU" (1 Pet. 3:21). Therefore, it is YOU, not the advocates of baptism, who is speaking lies and advocating false doctrine! Your view, and your statements, are diametrically opposed to plain statements of truth in God's word about baptism and its relationship to salvation.

I hope you will give extend and careful consideration to these things, "Freak."

 

[servantofChrist]

I have a question for all of you who say it is "spiritual" baptism and not "water" baptism that saves a person.

Do you mean, by "spiritual" baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Freak]

Servant,

Perhaps it would do you some good if you actually dealt with the many veress I provided in my first post, instead of highlighting the one. It will open your eyes to the truth that justification is by faith alone.

In 1 Corinthians 15 the Apostle Paul clearly demonstrates that the Gospel does not include baptism but rather the death, the burial, and resurrection. And this Gospel is what saves you according to Paul (Romans 1:16).

Now deal with this....

 

[Jaltus]

soC,

I believe that is what they mean. Baptism of the Spirit occurs at rebirth, at the moment of salvation.

 

[JustAChristian]

There are many factors that the New Testament says saves or justifies us. It is God that justifies (Rom 8:33). It is Christ that saves us from our sins (Matt. 1:21). It is by the Spirit of God we are justified (1 Cor 6:11). Then it is by the blood of Christ (Rom. 5:9), the grace of God (Rom. 3:24), the gospel of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-2), by Gods mercy (titus 3:4-5) and through our faith and hope (Rom. 5:5:1; rom 8:24). We are justified by our works (James 2:24) and by baptism (1 Peter 3:19-21). Most assuredly, we are NOT saved by faith alone.

Though the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith--saved by faith--faith is not the Savior. Christ is the Savior. Faith is means to reach the end--salvation in Christ. Man is saved by repentance, but repentance is not the Savior; it, too, is a means to the end--salvation in Christ. Man is saved by the confession, also by baptrism, yet these connot be Saviors. The Savior is a person, a being. Faith, repentance, confession and baptism are acts performed which are necessary to reach salvation in Christ the Savior.

JustAChristian

 

[Freak]

Yes, faith is in a person we know as the Lord Jesus Christ. This alone saves you not water baptism.

 

[servantofChrist]

Hello "Freak":

You contradicted yourself. You need to go off somewhere and have a talk with the two of you so both of you will speak the same thing!

You said that salvation is by "faith and faith alone." Then you immediately appealed to 1 Cor. 15:1-3, saying that the definition of the "gospel" there does not say anything about baptism.

First of all, If salvation is by "faith and faith ALONE" [your own words], then the gospel has nothing to do with our salvation because the gospel comes from God, whereas "faith," which you say "alone" saves us, comes from us.

What you are unwittingly saying is, God has nothing to do with our salvation because it is by "faith AND FAITH ALONE." And since faith is MAN'S part in the matter, and you say we are saved by it "alone," the inescapable consequence of your view is, we save ourselves and God has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation!

Secondly, you cite 1 Cor. 15:1-3 as proof that baptism is not required for salvation simply because baptism is not mentioned in this one passage. If that is true, then neither is repentance necessary to be saved because it is not mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:1-3 either!

To reiterate your own words - Let's see you deal with that!

 

[servantofChrist]

Hey Freak, let's look at your "faith and faith alone" view from another angle, by citing it directly with a quotation from the Bible and comparing, or, I should say, contrasting, the two:


Freak:

A man is saved by "faith and faith alone."


The New Testament:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
(Jas. 2:24)


Question: Who should everyone believe? "Freak" or the New Testament (God's word)?

 

[JustAChristian]

Yes, faith is in a person we know as the Lord Jesus Christ. This alone saves you not water baptism.

My! You've really got a hang-up! Did you not read were I showed that many things in the Bible are said to save us. Not any one of these saves alone but produces the end, i.e. salvation. Faith alone will not save just like baptism alone will not save. All the counsel of God must be considered and acted upon before there is salvation. On building a house, suppose I should say, "By nails the house is built." Immediately you would say, "That is true, but it is also built by lumber and sheetrock and shingles on the roof." All these working together produce the end result which is a house. All that the scriptures tell us on salvation has to be considered and believed, for Christ only rewards with salvation those who obey him (Hebrews 5:8-9). Don't sell yourself short by discounting "...all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27).

JustAChristian

 

[servantofChrist]

With regard to baptism that pertains to salvation being water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism... may I please offer the following evidence to consider:

One of the most important differences to discern between water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism is that the former was commanded while the latter was NOT given as a command for people to obey in order to receive it. Rather, Holy Spirit baptism was always INITIATED BY GOD AT THE TIME, PLACE, AND CIRCUMSTANCE OF HIS CHOOSING. It was a ONE WAY affair!

In Lk. 24:49, Jesus told His disciples to remain in Jerusalem until they would "be clothed with power from on high," a reference to their being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

The scene of this taking place is recorded in Acts 2:1-4. Notice by the words below in all-caps, the baptism of the Holy Spirit here on these men fits the characterization above; that Holy Spirit baptism is entirely a one-way event, initiated by God at the time, place, and circumstance OF HIS CHOOSING:

"When the day of Pentecost had come, they [apostles] were all together in one place. AND SUDDENLY THERE CAME FROM HEAVEN a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. AND THERE APPEARED TO THEM TONGUES as of fire distributing themselves, AND THEY RESTED ON EACH ONE OF THEM. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues AS THE SPIRIT WAS GIVING THEM UTTERANCE."

Also, at the occasion of the conversion of the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius. Peter's own account of it in Acts 11 says, "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit FELL UPON THEM, just as He did on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit' " (Acts 11:15-16).

It is perfectly clear that in both of these examples of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it was a COMPLETELY GOD-INITIATED, GOD-CONTROLLED, ONE-WAY affair on the part of God. The recipients had no choice in the matter whatsoever. At the precise moment THAT GOD CHOSE, the Holy Spirit FELL UPON these certain individuals that God chose to pour the Spirit out on.

So what is so important about observing these things?
This: If Holy Spirit baptism is the baptism that is involved in an individual being saved and not water baptism, then salvation is TOTALLY up to God and individuals have no say so in the matter at all. We are at the mercy of God to be saved and we had better hope with all of our being that we will be among those individuals whom God chooses to pour out His Spirit upon. Otherwise, we are walking around doomed!

And, if Holy Spirit baptism is the baptism that pertains to salvation, then this necessarily means that GOD ALONE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR SALVATION - because HE pours out the Holy Spirit baptism on individuals HE selects at the time, place, and circumstance OF HIS CHOOSING. Not even faith in Jesus Christ will save us if we must be baptized by the Holy Spirit, because that is something GOD ALONE controls.

It means that we are not saved until - and UNLESS - God decides to pour out His Holy Spirit upon us at some time and place during our life at His choosing.

This is the consequence of believing that Holy Spirit baptism, and not water baptism, is the baptism that saves us. Moreover, both of these examples of people receiving Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 2 and 10) show that those who received this direct, immediate impact of the Holy Spirit upon them, demonstrated miraculous signs to evidence it - they spoke in tongues. Have any of you reading this ever suddenly had the Holy Spirit fall upon you and then you began speaking in tongues, or exhibiting some other supernatural sign, signifiying the reception of God's Spirit in direct form? Those who received Holy Spirit baptism in the 1st century demonstrated it by the miraculous signs that accompanied it, as these examples in the book of Acts show.

On the other hand, water baptism WAS COMMANDED. This distinction is unmistakably clear in Acts 10:44, 47, 48.

 

[servantofChrist]

Just-A-Christian,

AMEN! to everything you said. God bless you, my friend.

 

[Kevin]

servantofChrist,

Hey Freak, let's look at your "faith and faith alone" view from another angle, by citing it directly with a quotation from the Bible and comparing, or, I should say, contrasting, the two:


Freak:

A man is saved by "faith and faith alone."


The New Testament:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
(Jas. 2:24)


Question: Who should everyone believe? "Freak" or the New Testament (God's word)?

Oustanding point! The difference between what Freak says and what the Bible says could not be any clearer.

 

[Ian Day]

Are "saved" & "justified" the same thing ????
How does Paul agree with James ?????

 

[Freak]

Go back and see what Jesus our Lord has said regarding this issue.

In John 10:9 Jesus said "I am the gate; whoever enters through mewill be saved."

In John 5:24 Jesus said "...whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life...."

Now tell me where does Jesus say you must be baptized to be saved or eternal life? I'll be waiting for an answer....and please don't avoid my question, simply deal with these two verses...

 

[JustAChristian]

Is Justification and Salvation Synonymous?

Is Justification and Salvation Synonymous?

Are "saved" & "justified" the same thing ????
How does Paul agree with James ?????

James say, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only" James 2:24. The Greek word is "dikiioo" and is also translated in one place as "freed". It is certainly not "by works of our own doing (Titus 3:5) that we are saved but by the mercy of God. We can't save ourselves.

God is the justifer. Justification is to be made free. Salvation frees us from sin (1 Peter 1:22-23). It grants us the potential for eternal life; "But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life." Romans 6:22

In view of the whole matter of justification and salvation I would be hard pressed to prove they were not synonymous. If you have something to add, say on.

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

The Whole Of Anything Is The Sum Of Its Parts.

The Whole Of Anything Is The Sum Of Its Parts.

Go back and see what Jesus our Lord has said regarding this issue.

In John 10:9 Jesus said "I am the gate; whoever enters through mewill be saved."

In John 5:24 Jesus said "...whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life...."

Now tell me where does Jesus say you must be baptized to be saved or eternal life? I'll be waiting for an answer....and please don't avoid my question, simply deal with these two verses...

Jesus also said, "...except you also repent you will likewise perish" (Luke 13:3,5). Now Jesus does not deal with the subject of repentance in your cites, but I am sure you will agree that a person who will not repent of sins will not have erternal life, even though he may believe in Jesus. The demons heard the words of and believe on him, but are the demons going to be saved? You must consider "...all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27)

 

[Freak]

Now deal with my post.

 

[HopeofGlory]

What true Christian ever called true faith our own faith? Does not the scripture say, it is the gift of God? For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. What true Christian ever called good works our own works? Does scripture say, it is God who worketh in us? Now your faith may be called good and saving, because it is God's gift thru Christ and not of ourselves. But now, suppose a man relied on his own faith, and another relied on his own works, they then are both carnally minded and are equally the same worthless, filthy rags. The moment a man seeks to be justified by his own obedience, that moment he falls from Christ, and ceases to have an interest in our savior. The same moment a man seeks to be saved or justified by his own faith, that moment he also falls from Christ. Our own faith and own obedience are at the same distance from God, and are works of the flesh. For the true Christian never thinks, or talks of being justified by his own obedience, any more than of being washed and saved by his own blood. It is by the supernatural WORD and SPIRIT of God that we are made righteous to a fullness of birth in Him, His obedience, His works, His faith, His will, His love, to His glory, that we are given eternal life. This is the new creature that is justified by faith and works of Christ and it can not be had in types or shadows. If faith is not from Christ, or works not from Christ, then they are both worthless filthy rags. But add Christ to faith, and Christ to works, and then they are but one and the same power of God to salvation and nothing remains, but Christ in us the hope of glory.

Abraham’s faith and righteousness were not of God or in Christ. His faith was not heavenly and his reward was not heavenly. Eternal life was not attainable at this time and his faith was of himself not being in Christ. His reward was earthly in every sense, looking forward to a kingdom on this earth. His righteousness was not in Christ, the true righteousness of God.

Rom. 4:1 (KJV) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom. 4:3 (KJV) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom. 4:4 (KJV) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


We can clearly see it was Abraham's faith and righteousness as pertaining to his flesh.

Rom. 3:9 (KJV) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom. 3:10 (KJV) 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Heb. 11:39 (KJV) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb. 11:40 (KJV) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

We are not blessed through Abraham but through his seed (Christ) that was in him and this is the gospel.

Gal. 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal. 3:16 (KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal. 3:17 (KJV) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Rom. 3:21 (KJV) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom. 3:22 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom. 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom. 3:24 (KJV) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom. 3:25 (KJV) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom. 3:26 (KJV) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom. 3:27 (KJV) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom. 4:5 (KJV) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his (Christ‘s) faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom. 4:6 (KJV) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom. 4:7 (KJV) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom. 4:8 (KJV) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.



Matt. 13:17 (KJV) For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


1 John 5:11 (KJV) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:12 (KJV) He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5:13 (KJV) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

"When thou dost thine alms," saith he, "let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doth." And again, "When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret, and thy Father which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly." Why is all this secrecy? It is, that the work, may be solely from, and to, and for God, and that self may have neither beginning, nor end, or any part in it.

Faith without Christ is from the spirit of Satan, working and ruling in our animal birth of Adam's poisoned flesh and blood. Faith from the Spirit of Christ comes to us at the birth of the new creature, created unto good works in Christ Jesus. The works of the devil in us, are our only condemnation, and the works of Christ in us, are our only justification. This is the stone, which was set at naught of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other Name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. What is faith in his blood, but the same thing as faith in his cross, to embrace the gospel of Christ and enter into the kingdom of God?


We must have the righteousness of Christ or he can be no savior to us. Can you possibly be told this in stronger terms, than when Christ said, "Except a man be born again from above, of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Whosoever is born of God, doth not commit sin"; the same as saying, till a man is born of God, he is still under the power of his sinful nature. Christ's righteousness must be our righteousness and this alone is justification in the sight of God. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

There are two spirits, one is the Spirit of God, the other is the spirit that fell from God, and works contrary to him. Nothing is good in any creature, because the Spirit of God is the doer of good; nothing is evil, but that which is done by the spirit that is not from God and this is how we can know the spirits. Any spirit that speaks of eternal life (true salvation) without Christ is not of God. Our redemption consists in our being made one in Christ, born of him, that having his nature we become one with him in God, one spirit, forever. God was in Christ Jesus, reconciling the world to himself. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Trust to seek to salvation in anyway but being in Christ, which is the gospel of Christ will be no better than receiving the wrath of God. The old man must die, or the new man can never be made alive in Christ. This is the gospel from the beginning to the end.


Yours in Christ
Craig