The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[c.moore]

Hello Kevin

first of all I thank you for taking the time to read the borrowed information i pasted, and I really did this to be obedient to God , because if you are wrong in your understanding and all which was said in the information was all true and God was teaching you through this information and you didn`t accept , when you stand before God , you can never say HE didn`t warn you , or teach you , He will remind you and show His love of HIS correct teaching one way or another and you will stand accountable for lack of knowledge.

You said:C.Moore, this is what I've been telling you time and time again. The author stresses to act on that faith. As I've said - the faith that saves is the faith that obeys. How can you "act" on faith without obeying? How can faith *alone* act on anything?

But i mention so often that you can´t put the cart before the horse.
You can`t put works before faith, or the water baptism before faith , and belief.

Let me say this again which I`ve had told you so many times, that when I love my wife I only do, and show my love or the fruit of it after the love, and not the other way around, which you think is correct to first prove, and work or obey first, then be accepted or the love comes.
When you get the order correct , and God`s principles , then we will be in one understanding.

See kevin God loved us all first without any works or obedience , and when we know this we fall in love with HIM , and this is called the first love, and the next step no#2 we trust Jesus, lean on HIM , and Let Jesus in Us and we then have the unseen faith in Jesus which is the substance , which is faith , and then no#3 we let Jesus guide us in His will the best we can and know how to which you clearly explained also that faith first ,and without the will or directing, and the helping of the Jesus in us the faith is dead.
Meaning if we really love God then we should see the fruit of it by the Jesus in us directing us, leading us with HIs Spirit, and this is the works or obedience we get in our walk with Jesus.
So we do have alot of people saying they love Jesus, but we sometimes don`t see no fruit of it or even obedience because they are not led by the spirit , they want to hold on to their old flesh life and don`t change , and alot of it has to do with the Heart.
That the reason why the scripture is said in Matt many will say LOrd ; Lord I have do so many things in your name , but god will say I don`t even know you depart.
Now If I say to my wife I love you , and don`t want to help her ,give her money,show my effection towards her,do all I can do for her, then I have really lied in saying I love her because you haven`t see me obey , or act like I love her.
This is my point in being saved, and doing baptism after I really love Jesus, and as I am Loving Jesus , my walk after my love or in my love is to follow His will, making HIM happy and pleased by faith leaning, and trusting Jesus with all my heart, but not in A way to get something from Him or to put on a show, but because of love alone, which I think people put this in the wrong words faith only.

IT Should be LOVE ONLY, and then God`s plains and your fruits like wanting to get baptized, not for salvation but as a love kiss to Jesus, and reading your bible as to know this Jesus more who first loves us.

I hope you can understand what I am trying to point out to you , and this is the good news Kevin, and when you tell others about this good new about the love walk , it is A offer almost no one can`t refuse, and you church will finally start growing when your church spread this gospel, and being in the presence of God.

AMEN

God bless you Kevin

 

[c.moore]

salvation is by unamended Grace

salvation is by unamended Grace

Kevin you Quoted:

I'm not trying to say that "earn" our salvation by a checklist mentality, but keeping the commandments of Christ, to the best of our ability, is expected of us. If all you do is go around with a checklist mentality of keeping His commandments, but lack the faith that saves us, then keeping his commandments, without faith, won't do anybody any good. I tried to explain to you in my last post that it is our faith that saves, but it is the type that of faith that produces obedience to God.


Quote by A borrowed article which explains the key problem about water baptism, obedience, and religious works against Grace, and is well explained in A very clear way to understand, the grace that saves us.

Salvation is by Unamended Grace


The arguments we have presented clearly show salvation must be by grace. Unfortunately, it is necessary that we add further clarification as to what we mean by this. It seems nothing is more fashionable in the Christian world than to say "salvation is by grace," but closer inspection of many making this claim reveals their concept of "grace" is in reality an alternate system of works. When we say "salvation is by grace," we need not add any clarification or amendment to what we have said. We mean that salvation is by grace in all parts and aspects.
Certain preachers claiming to teach grace will often say, "Your are saved by grace, BUT you must..." Such statements are contradictory within themselves. Once the "BUT" is added, grace is destroyed. It then becomes what Gal 2:21 calls "frustrated grace," which in reality is not grace at all (Rom 11:6).
When men say "You are saved by grace, BUT...," they then begin to add amendments to grace. These are invariably rules of obedience by which salvation is obtained. It will be said that these rules of obedience do not constitute "works," but that "works" should refer only to those precepts in the moral law. But isn't their system all the same in principle with salvation by works? They have merely replaced one set of rules with another. As we have already shown, such systems have already proven failures. None of the systems promoted by modern Christians are as easy to follow as the works system imposed upon Adam. Yet Adam failed, and we believe this implies the modern systems are doomed to failure also.
To destroy all concepts of conditional "grace," we need but merely ask: Are these proposed rules of obedience spiritual things or natural things? Surely, one must answer they are spiritual things. However, Paul said:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - 1Cor 2:14
Hence, a natural man will not comply with a spiritual rule of obedience. He will see such demands as being sheer foolishness. To this we may add:
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. - Rom 8:5-8
This text asserts all actions of carnal men fall short of God's pleasure. Their actions either violate His law, or else they are performed with carnal motives. Their very mind is enmity against God. It follows that if such were to perform actions to secure salvation, then salvation must be obtained by displeasing God. What could be more absurd than this?
It is often said that "Salvation is a gift, BUT you must accept the gift." We certainly insist that all men should believe Christ and obey His gospel, and we affirm that ministers of the gospel should exhort their hearers thereunto. Further, we affirm that it is by our faith and obedience that we obtain assurance of our salvation. But we deny that these things should be presented as though they are qualifying amendments to grace. The Bible never says, "Salvation is a gift, BUT you must accept it." Should we then make this statement? We think not, especially since the statement does not even make sense. The gift under consideration is not a birthday present; rather, it is life.
How much sense would it make for one to offer natural life to some corpse lying in a mortuary upon the condition that the corpse agree to accept it? No sane person would propose such a thing. The corpse cannot perform the requested action. If it did, then this would prove it was not truly a corpse. It was really alive all along.
Now it is equally ridiculous to say that a natural man can acquire spiritual life if he will agree to perform a spiritual condition. The Bible teaches natural men are dead to all spiritual things (Jn 5:25, Rom 8:5-8, 1Cor 2:14, Eph 2:1-3, Col 2:13). This means they do not and cannot understand, appreciate, or perform spiritual things. Therefore, if a man exhibits spiritual activity (e.g. belief, submission to baptism, or other obedience), then this proves he already has spiritual life, even as natural activity proves one to already have natural life. These activities are not the causes of this life. They are the consequences of this life.
Spiritual life can never derive from natural life. The Lord made this perfectly clear when He said:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. - Jn 3:6-7
Since natural man is totally dead to all spiritual things, he cannot be spiritually born of anything within his own being. He must be born of the Spirit of God, and this birth is wholly by grace.
The very fact the Bible describes the acquisition of spiritual life as a birth implies it is all of grace. What person ever contributed toward their natural birth? In a birth, that which is born is totally passive; that which gives birth is totally active. Accordingly, all scriptural analogies to the acquisition of spiritual life convey this same idea. In particular, this acquisition is compared to:
1) a birth (Jn 1:11-13, Jn 3:3-8)
2) a quickening (Eph 2:1-5, Col 2:13)
3) a translation (Col 1:12-13)
4) a resurrection (Jn 5:25-29)
5) a creation (2Cor 5:17, Gal 6:15, Eph 2:10)
No individual experiencing any of the above transitions ever contributed in the least degree to the transition, nor have they ever successfully resisted it. In all of these transitions, it is the power of God, and this power alone, which accomplishes the transition.
Now if spiritual life is of grace, then all the abilities conferred by this life are also of grace, including all of the abilities which are necessary to perform the amendments proposed by those who will say, "Salvation is by grace, BUT..." (Prov 16:1, Jn 6:44-45, Acts 13:48, Acts 16:14, Gal 5:22-23, Eph 1:19-20, Eph 2:8-10, Philip 1:29, Philip 2:12-13, 1Tim 1:12-16, 1Pet 1:1-5, 2Pet 1:2-3).
It would be far better to say, "Salvation is by grace, THEREFORE you must..." We are infinitely indebted to God, who has loved us notwithstanding our rebellion against Him, and who has saved us freely through our Lord Jesus Christ, who bore the burdens of our sins even to the death of the cross. We believe all who are enabled by the grace of God to see the truth of this salvation, and who are enabled by this same grace to believe and love their Savior, will feel compelled by the love of God and truth to live in such a way as to honor His great name. We conclude this article with quotations from the Bible which express this same truth. Salvation is by grace, THEREFORE let us live in appreciation of it, and to the honor of Him who gave it, and let us acknowledge that our only hope is in that which is truly and completely grace, and let us profess this before men that they may acknowledge it also.
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. - Rom 15:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. - 1Cor 1:30-31
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. - 2Cor 5:14-15
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. - Heb 10:22-25

I think this is the ice cream on the cake , we just have to eat it, and recieve the message in this information.

I hope this Bless you Kevin , and anybody else who thinks they have to put A "But" in there salvation and grace walk.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by servantofChrist
For Everyone's Consideration:

I asked a question several months ago on this baptism thread that no one answered. I'll ask it again now and wait once again for an answer.

Many who believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation point to Eph. 2:8-9 and cite it as the scripture that tells how an "alien sinner" (one who has never been saved) is saved from his sins: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Acts 2 records the first occasion of the gospel of Christ ever having been preached. So critically important was this original gospel message that every word of it was spoken by inspiration of the Holy Spirit through the apostle Peter to the multitude of Jews there on that day in Jerusalem.

My question is - If the words of Eph. 2:8-9 are the proper words to tell a person what to do to be forgiven of his sins and saved today in 2003, then why were they NOT the words spoken by the Holy Spirit to those thousands of lost souls who heard the first gospel message ever delivered, who were all condemned with unforgiven sins?

Why didn't the Holy Spirit, through Peter, say something like:

"Every one of you have faith and you will be forgiven of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, for it is by grace that you are saved through faith."

I'm still waiting, not just for a reply, but for an answer, an answer that is supported and firmly established by the scriptures.

Apparently, you didn't read the Scriptures clearly.

Acts 3:19 tells us the Peter declared to all:

13The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.

Note: By faith, Peter tells not by works. Then in verse 19 he goes on to say:

19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'[2]

NOTE: no mention of baptism to receive times of refreshing from the Lord. Just simply ones turning from self to Christ.

BTW, my brother C. Moore I hope to call you soon.

 

[c.moore]

thank you freak

thank you freak

I`ll be waiting for your telephone call, and everything is set up here in Germany for you.

God bless you and your wife.

 

[Francisco]

Jay,

Just because Peter didn't mention baptism specifically in these verses is an argument from silence.

Peter did tell the crowd at Pentecost to 'repent and be baptized' for the forgiveness of their sins.

Then in 1 Peter 3:20-21 Peter very clearly says 'baptism does also now save us, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God; by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And that goes hand-in-hand with Paul's words at Romans 6:3-7

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For IF we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

I don't think you can look at one verse without the context of the rest of Peters words.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[servantofChrist]

Hello "Freak":

You said that in the Acts 3:19 passage there was no mention of baptism, just "one's turning from self to Christ."

Question: What is involved in "turning from self to Christ," and, what scripture(s) do you cite as Biblical evidence to show this?

 

[servantofChrist]

Hello again "Freak":


Regardless of your reply to my question above about Acts 3:19, you still did not answer the question of why the Holy Spirit did not tell those Jews in Acts 2:38 to simply have faith in Christ, or, as you put it, "turn from self to Christ," for the forgiveness of their sins.

If your words are correct, that all one has to do is "turn from self to Christ," then why did the Holy Spirit tell the multitude of Jews in Acts 2 to "Repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of your sins," instead of telling them to "turn from themselves to Christ" or, to "have faith in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins because you are saved by grace through faith."?

Your words, Freak, engender discussion about Acts 3:19, but they still did not answer the question I asked about Acts 2:38.

Think about it: Acts 2 is the historic occurrence of the first time the gospel of Jesus Christ was ever preached to man. Those present were to be told what to do to be forgiven of their sins and, therefore, be saved. Think of everything you believe about faith, works, baptism, and every other teaching and doctrine found in the New Testament. Think of all the various things the Holy Spirit might have told those people who were the FIRST to ever hear the gospel message, and that of all the things that could have been said by the Holy Spirit, He told those people there who were condemned in unforgiven sins to do TWO things: "Repent" and "be baptized." And He not only told them what to do, He even told them why they were to do it - "for the FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS."

No one has yet to answer the question as to why the Holy Spirit commanded what He did to those present at the first-ever gospel message delivered to mankind. The answer to Acts 3:19 is simple when considered in light of Acts 2:38 and all the other evidence contained in the N. T. about what to do to be saved. When Peter told those in Acts 3:19 to "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out," in saying "turn again," he was speaking in general terms. Because in turning to Christ, or God, they would then submit to doing whatever God commanded; and this meant being baptized as the Jews were commanded to in Acts 2 and the Gentiles were commanded to in Acts 10.

With regard to Acts 3:19 not mentioning baptism, neither does this verse mention the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ; nor does it mention the blood of Christ shed on the cross. Does this mean, therefore, that none of these is essential to have one's sins blotted out? That none of these things Christ went through and provided on our behalf are necessary in order for us to enjoy "times of refreshing," just because they are NOT mentioned in Acts 3:19?! According to you, "Freak," none of those things is necessary because, according to your own logic, baptism is not necessary simply because it is not mentioned in the verse. If you are correct in that reasoning, then it is also correct to conclude that the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and, specifically, the shedding of Christ's blood, are not necessary for our sins to be "blotted out" and for us to receive "times of refreshing" from the presence of the Lord.

Think about it.

 

[Freak]

SoC consider:

One attains eternal life (Salvation) thru simple belief in the person of Jesus. We see this in the words of Jesus when He said: "Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life" (John 3:15).

Another time when addressing the people of His day, Jesus was asked: "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent" (John 6:28-29).

Note no mention of baptism.

Jesus made it clear O2bewise: I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).

So, if one believes Jesus do they eternal life in light of what Jesus has told us?

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Do you know why this thread is so long? It's because people won't answer questions. When questions go unanswered, they get posted again and again. Why not try and answer them? I get so tired of seeing valid Biblical points showing the necessity of baptism only for people to ignore them and go another verse and say "Note no mention of baptism.", without addressing the original evidence given.

Your reply didn't touch ServantofChrist's question of:

If your words are correct, that all one has to do is "turn from self to Christ," then why did the Holy Spirit tell the multitude of Jews in Acts 2 to "Repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of your sins," instead of telling them to "turn from themselves to Christ" or, to "have faith in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins because you are saved by grace through faith."?

Why didn't you address this? It's a valid question, but instead of answering it, you ignore it and go to another part of the Bible that that doesn't happen to mention anything about baptism and say "Note no mention of baptism". What about the other parts of the Bible that DO mention baptism? How long will you not address them? Why not take the whole counsel of God into consideration instead of picking a few verses and hiding behind them, and building an entire doctrine out them? You are replying, but you are not answering. Again, that's why this thread is SO long, because people just won't step up and answer the evidence given.

Jesus made it clear O2bewise: I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).

First of all, I can assure you that SoC is not O2bewise, I know this for a fact. Secondly, just HOW do you think one enters the gate through Christ? We have a clear example in Acts 2:38 how sinners who were need in salvation enter Christ. They believed the words of Peter, and their belief led them to repentance and obedience to the command of baptism for the remission of sins. If your sins are not remissed, you WON'T be saved. Peter told the Jews to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins when he was asked the question "Men, brothers, what shall we do?". Why didn't Peter repsond "Just believe and depart, you are saved by grace through faith", which is EXACTLY what ServantofChrist is asking you. Will you answer the question?

Replying to somebody is one thing, but answering them is another thing altogether. The truth has an answer for everything, so if your doctrine is true, you should have no trouble answering this question.

So, if one believes Jesus do they eternal life in light of what Jesus has told us?

Only if they acted upon their belief as the Jews did in Acts 2:38, obeying what Christ commanded for the remission of sins, which is baptism. What good is belief in Christ if you don't do what He commands to do for salvation (Mark 16:16)?

 

[Francisco]

Jay,

If one 'believes' in Jesus, doesn't that necessarily include DOING what Jesus commands?

Throughout the entire gospel of John, the term repentence never comes up, and that is something we both agree must happen to win eternal salvation. Repentence is never mentioned because John expects those who 'believe' to necessarily repent because it is one of the things Jesus told us to do.

Also, it is Johns gospel that tells us we must be born of water and the spirit. Jesus tells Nicodemus this in a relatively long discourse, then immediately following his discourse with Nicodemus, He and the disciples go into Judea and BAPTIZE. That leaves no doubt as to what Jesus meant in John 3:5.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[servantofChrist]

Hello "Freak,"

I believe the verse you cited, John 3:15, that says, "whoever believes in him may have eternal life." I do believe those words. But I also believe the many other verses that convey the teachings of Christ.

But why can you not see, "Freak," that the term "believe in him" is a comprehensive term, that implies that if you believe "in him" then you believe in ALL that He teaches?

Sure, one has to believe in Christ to be saved. But to believe in Christ is to believe in who He is - the Son of the Most High God, who has been given "all authority in heaven and on earth" (Matt. 28:18). Therefore, we must listen to ALL that He says, not just the words of John 3:15 or Acts 3:19 or Eph. 2:8-9 or other SELECTED verses from the New Testament. If someone says, "You need an engine and transmission to make a car," that is a true statement; but it does not disclose ALL the things needed to make a car. But the statement was not intended to disclose everything needed to make a car to begin with.

Secondly, you said, once again, that John 3:15 does not mention baptism, just simple belief in Christ for eternal life. So I ask you again, this verse does not mention repentance or confession or the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Does this mean then that none of these things is necessary for salvation?

I don't understand why you cannot see the error in reasoning the way you do about baptism just because a certain passage, or certain passages, don't mention baptism in them. I can cite numerous verses that speak on the subject of salvation that do not mention in them the blood of Christ shed on the cross. Does this mean then that the blood of Christ is NOT necessary for our salvation? Or, can I just pick and choose which verses I want to believe in about salvation and just disregard, or give lesser regard to, others that speak on the same subject? This method of handling the scriptures is definitely not "rightly handling the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15).

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

you can never say HE didn`t warn you , or teach you , He will remind you and show His love of HIS correct teaching one way or another and you will stand accountable for lack of knowledge.

Um, yeah... Thanks for the "warning", but I think I'll be just fine.

But i mention so often that you can´t put the cart before the horse.
You can`t put works before faith, or the water baptism before faith , and belief.

And I've told you time after time that I don't put works before belief. As I've said in the past, if that were true, I would go up to somebody and say, "Hey you, come here. I'm going to baptize you in water, but I'm not going to tell you why until after I do that." That's putting works before belief, and as you can see from my example of that, that's downright rediculous. I don't do that. You just aren't getting what I'm trying to say, plain and simple.

See kevin God loved us all first without any works or obedience , and when we know this we fall in love with HIM , and this is called the first love, and the next step no#2 we trust Jesus, lean on HIM , and Let Jesus in Us

Jesus is not going to be in us unless, of course, we are in Him. The only Biblical verb that used to denote how one gets "in Christ" is baptism. Observe:

Gal 3:27
27) For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ.

Rom 6:3
3) Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?

Notice that baptism is the verb found in the Bible that shows how one gets "into Christ". The verses apply to whom? "As many as were baptized".


To be with Christ, one needs to be reborn (John 3:5). Take this challenge, C.Moore:

John: 3:3
3) Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

From this we can clearly see that one has to be born again to make it to heaven. Now, in order for one to be born "again", a death must occur. Why? Because:

• Logic demands it. Can one be born again into the Spirit while still living in his previous life of sin? Impossible. A death must occur so that a new life can begin.
  
• We must die with Christ in order to live with Christ (2 Tim. 2:11)

So this bring us to the question of how one dies with Christ. The Bible speaks clearly on this matter:

Romans 6:3-4
3) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4) Therefore we were buried with Him through BAPTISM into death that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

There is but ONE way to die with Christ, and I even took the liberty of underlining it: BAPTISM. That's how we die with Christ.

I challenge you, or anyone else to show me another Biblical way that we die with Christ. Please back it with scripture, as I have.

And to reiterate 2 Tim. 2:11: For faithful is the Word, for if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.

This makes it quite clear that we must die with Him in order to live with Him. I've already shown, from the Bible, how we die with Christ - Baptism. Show me another Biblical passage that speaks of any other method by which we die with Christ. Take the challenge.

 

[servantofChrist]

To All Who Do Not Believe Baptism Is Necessary For Salvation:


Let's try a different approach to this matter:


1. "For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
(Rom. 10:10)

2. "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent... "The Lord is...not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
(Acts 17:30, 2 Pet. 3:9)

3. "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you... "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
(1 Pet. 3:21, Mk. 16:16)

The verses in item #1 state that belief and confession lead to justification and salvation.

The verses in item #2 state that God commands [Urepentance[/U] to all people and that He doesn't want anyone to "perish," but those who do not reach repentance will. Therefore, repentance is necessary for salvation because it has been commanded by God of all people and those who do not will "perish."

The verses in item #3 state that baptism saves those who obey it; also that belief saves.

Having looked at those verses, why, or how, can someone say that all of them teach what they say except the two on baptism? That they don't "really" mean that baptism saves a person? How can anyone believe the plain statements of the verses in items #1 and #2, but DISBELIEVE the equally plain statements about baptism of the verses in item #3?

 

[servantofChrist]

To "Freak" and all others who believe that belief in Christ is all one has to do to be saved is believe in Christ:


Does the Bible teach that confession is necessary for salvation?

Since I'm not sure when, or even if, someone will answer that question, I'll answer with the scriptures, myself:

"So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven... "and with the mouth one confesses and is saved" (Matt. 10:32-33, Rom. 10:10).

Now look at the scene in John 12:42-43:

"Nevertheless, many even of the authorities BELIEVED IN HIM, BUT for fear of the Pharisees DID NOT CONFESS IT, so they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God."

Here is a clear-cut example of people who believed in Christ, but would not confess it. Jesus Himself said that such a one He Himself would DENY - not save - before the Father in heaven. Being DENIED by Jesus before the Father does NOT sound to me like someone who He is going to SAVE!

John 12:42-43 not only proves that belief in Christ ALONE does not save someone, it also shows the error, and the DANGER, of selecting and believing in only certain verses of scripture that deal with salvation while disregarding, or even giving a lesser regard to, others that deal with the same subject.

 

[servantofChrist]

I want to take a "time-out" here and express my very deep thanks and appreciation to the moderators and all those who are involved in making these richly rewarding discussions of God's word possible for the rest of us on this forum.

I am also profoundly grateful to God Almighty that we live in a country where we have the freedom to worship God as we believe He teaches us to in the Sacred Writings, and the freedom to not only confess our faith in Christ, but to also try to persuade others in the world to get to know Him who do not know Him.

I am a Vietnam veteran, having proudly served on two aircraft carriers in 1968-69: USS Yorktown CVS-10 and USS Kearsarge CVS-33, respectively. We need to understand that we have a grave duty and responsibility at this time in our nation's history to defend not only our faith (1 Pet. 3:15), but our COUNTRY, in whatever way we can. Because the freedoms I spoke of above, which we mostly take for granted, are DISALLOWED in virtually EVERY MUSLIM COUNTRY around the world.

I know that things get pretty heated at times between us on this forum as we assert our doctrinal views and differences, but let us NEVER allow our sharp differences in doctrinal belief to cause us to become unChristian in our feelings and in our attitudes and in our actions toward each other. As Jesus Himself said...

"By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have LOVE for one another" (John 13:35).

 

[c.moore]

Hello Kevin

what do you think about the teaching on Salvation is by Unamended Grace?

What is false about this teaching , and what do you agree with in the teaching on Salvation is by Unamended Grace Kevin??

I was surprised there was no feed back like last time, specially when the person said about putting "BUT" after grace or salvation.

I think this teaching hit the root of our conflict here , and all those who think A baptism work saves you .

Yes again we do all should get baptized , "IN OUR CHRISTIAN WALK" as following Christ, But we are already in Christ when we recieve HIM and HE is in us when we let HIM in by repentance , and the thing that let Jesus in us is THE BLOOD OF JESUS makes us instantly white as snow, and nothing else can take the place of the blood of Jesus Kevin, also baptism can`t take the place of the blood of Jesus , that forgive us and make us righteous praise God.


God bless

 

[Freak]

Jesus not H2O

Jesus not H2O

SoC--

My concern is you are taking away the fact that Jesus is enough. You are adding water. Jesus can save without water. Correct? Jesus, is God, He is able to save.

Nowhere does the Scriptures teach one must be water baptized to be justified. In fact, God's Word tells us the exact opposite:

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

In this portion of Holy Scripture, we see that "his faith is credited as righteousness," not water. Trusting (faith) God justifies not water.

Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Again, we see that water is absent. Rigtheousness (being made right with God) came through belief (faith) in Christ not water.

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Once again water is absent. The teaching in this portion of Scripture is clear:
The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith

I guess you guys think the writers of scripture (in this case Paul) made a huge mistake by stating that it was merely faith and faith alone that would bring justification not water.

 

[Apollos]

Jesus can SAVE using water...

Jesus can SAVE using water...

Freak –

Where have you been? Things here have been so much more rational without you…

My concern is you are taking away the fact that Jesus is enough.

No we aren’t Freak! "All" of Jesus is enough. It is YOU that is taking away from Jesus!! Every time you say one can be saved without doing what Jesus said to do, YOU are TAKING AWAY from Jesus. We are not adding water because Jesus included water in the plan to save man.

You on the other hand want to TAKE AWAY from what Jesus said because it does not suit your sensibilities. YOU want to save man YOUR way, not by the way Jesus stipulated.

Bottom line: You do not believe what Jesus said!

Jesus can save without water. Correct?

Yep – IF He chose to do so, but this was not the way HE chose. YOU want to save without water. Jesus included water. Jesus could have healed without water in John 9 with the blind man BUT that is not the way Jesus chose to do it. Today Jesus STILL uses WATER for man to appropriate the salvation He offers to man.

Ask yourself Freak – “Could Jesus have healed the blind man in John 9 without water?” (Answer: Yes!!)
Can Jesus SAVE using WATER if He so choses?? (Yes!!)
And Jesus does !!!!

Water baptism is the means chosen by God through which man appropriates the salvation offered by God by His grace.

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

My concern is you are taking away the fact that Jesus is enough. You are adding water. Jesus can save without water. Correct? Jesus, is God, He is able to save.

Jesus died for the salvation of all men, but there is a process by which that salvation is applied. Otherwise, everyone in the world would be saved because His death on the cross was enough to expiate ALL sins of ALL men. You don't believe everyone in the world is saved do you?

Nowhere does the Scriptures teach one must be water baptized to be justified. In fact, God's Word tells us the exact opposite:

Justification and the application of salvation are two different topics. Justification is by grace through faith. No one will deny that. However, scripture tells us we must be baptized to enter the kingdom of heaven:

Jesus said 'Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.' (John 3:5)

Now I know you will say 'water' isn't referring to baptism. However, the actions of Jesus and His disciples emphasize that Jesus was talking about baptism. As soon as Jesus finishes his discourse with Nicodemus about 'being born of water and Spirit', look at what they do:

After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing. (John 3:23)

It is very clear Jesus was talking about baptism, otherwise he wouldn't have gone immediately into Judea and spent time with the disciples baptizing. The command of Jesus is very clear, we must be baptized.

The rest of your points and scriptural citations have to do with justification, not the application of salvation to individuals. That seems to be where our opinions differ. You are equating initial justification to the application of salvation, but they are two different issues. Otherwise, all men would be justified by Jesus' death that was 'enough' to expiate the sins of all men.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Freak]

Re: Jesus can SAVE using water...

Re: Jesus can SAVE using water...

Originally posted by Apollos
Freak –

Where have you been? Things here have been so much more rational without you…

No we aren’t Freak! "All" of Jesus is enough. It is YOU that is taking away from Jesus!! Every time you say one can be saved without doing what Jesus said to do, YOU are TAKING AWAY from Jesus. We are not adding water because Jesus included water in the plan to save man.

You on the other hand want to TAKE AWAY from what Jesus said because it does not suit your sensibilities. YOU want to save man YOUR way, not by the way Jesus stipulated.

Bottom line: You do not believe what Jesus said!
Yep – IF He chose to do so, but this was not the way HE chose. YOU want to save without water. Jesus included water. Jesus could have healed without water in John 9 with the blind man BUT that is not the way Jesus chose to do it. Today Jesus STILL uses WATER for man to appropriate the salvation He offers to man.

Ask yourself Freak – “Could Jesus have healed the blind man in John 9 without water?” (Answer: Yes!!)
Can Jesus SAVE using WATER if He so choses?? (Yes!!)
And Jesus does !!!!

Water baptism is the means chosen by God through which man appropriates the salvation offered by God by His grace.

Apollos, my ole friend.....God will eventually open your eyes to the truth thereby setting you free from sin.

I notice you didn't deal with the large amount of Scripture I posted to prove justification is by faith ALONE. BTW, the man did testify that the water healed him but rather that Jesus healed him. See, here you go again pointing people to the created (like water) then to the creator.