Excellent post RP
The Gospel Verses Predestination
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Excellent post RP
You have taken your beliefs from Pelagian and Finney...like you say I take mine from Calvin. Do you want to keep up the reliance on saying I'm a Calvinist or do you wish to engage in the text of scripture. I pointed out what the scriptures say, yet your retort was nothing more than "Calvinism." I can simply retort back to you, "Pelagian." Would it be fair? Shall I just say "Pelagian" everytime you try to share your interpretation of a verse?
Rosenritter
New member
Where did I say anything about Calvin? I believe I spoke of "Calvinist" which is a a well-recognized philosophical / theological label that Calvinists themselves usually do not find offensive.
Regardless, I choose to take one point and bring that back to your attention. Given your objections about "responding to scripture" perhaps you may not realize that "not willing that any should perish" IS direct scripture. Specific Book Chapter Verse shall be provided on request.
If you really feel a need to evade then you don't need to introduce red herrings (like the above) ... you can simply decline to answer and I would lose interest in your responses soon enough. I have no desire to wade into a brawl.
My faith is in Jesus Christ and His Gospel.
Could it be that the issue isn't about Jesus and the Gospel, but instead it is a fundamental difference in what we are observing in scripture? The question is: Who is observing what the Bible says as opposed to who is using the Bible to prooftext their philosophy?
First question: Can you point me to scripture where man's will is shown to be greater than God's will?
Share your Pelagian beliefs with us, Rosenritter.
You have no clue what Faith in Jesus Christ is !
Indeed, 2 Peter 3:9.
Have you read all of 2 Peter? In the beginning of the book, to whom is Peter writing? That's important when you get to chapter 3.
Now, what is Peter talking about in chapter 3? This is also important. Study the book and let me know if you still want to cherry pick three sentences and create a doctrine from it?
If your faith was in Jesus Christ and his Gospel you would not need the Calvinist religion. Jesus saves and he saves to the uttermost, Hebrews 7:25. No religion needed. Salvation has always been by grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8.
God's Word becomes ours paradoxically when we faithe ( personally surrendering our lives to Him , and living a life inspired by such surrender ) into Jesus Christ , the real living person .
But Jesus Christ the real living person , can't become ours faithing ( personally surrendering our lives to God's Word , and living a life inspired by God's Word ) in God's Word .
The real relationship with Jesus , a real living person , must happen and be consumated first , before anything of His can be stood upon .
Just to add to RPs post .
Has anyone ever concidered how people came to Christ before God's Word was compiled ? To those who had no access to the Gospel message ? God the Father was surely calling some of those ones .
Rosenritter
New member
Matthew 23:37 KJV
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Assuming that we don't have a disagreement on the identity of Jesus, that immediately comes to mind. Some others starting to sparkle on the cerebrum right now even as I write this...
beloved57
Well-known member
You don't believe the Gospel. How can you when you don't believe Christ Blood saved all for whom it was shed.
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Rosenritter
New member
From reading the context, apparently he is writing about people that have not yet come to repentance. And rather than saying "that we should come to repentance" or some other limiting term for a special group, he chose an inclusive word like "all." I guess Peter wasn't a very skilled writer, but I think it is more likely that he wasn't a very good Calvinist.
And also knowing that all scripture has a consistent author in the Holy Spirit, Peter is not at odds with the epistle of 1 Timothy, which explicitly tells us:
1 Timothy 2:3-6 KJV
(3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
(4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
And given the context of the scriptures of that Holy Spirit, we know that this is also called "the world" (John 3:16) when it would have been so easy to have instead used an inclusive limiting word, such as 'saints" or "sons of God" or some other term. "World" is awfully inclusive, don't you think? It would have been so easy for the Holy Spirit to have written this conveniently for the Calvinists... so why didn't he?
It must have been as a trial of your faith and an exercise of your patience, having to deal with the words being written in such an open inclusive fashion where God loves all men and wishes to redeem all, giving his life as a sacrifice for the whole world..... and testing you with your skills of deduction as the scripture is written so deceptively to make it seem as if God himself believes men have free will, to sin or obey.
God does work in mysterious ways.
Rosenritter
New member
Salvation has always been by faith, and wasn't Jesus there in the beginning, the same as who created the heavens and the earth? The God of Abraham was the same as he who said "before Abraham was, I AM" ... right?
Are you claiming that in this passage Jesus is declaring that the human will is greater than God's will?
Are humans more powerful than God?
Matthew 23:37 is speaking of how the 'House of Israel' used their 'God-given' (created) free-choice (will) to not follow after their God.
We ALL have a free-choice (will) to accept/reject the Gospel and Christ's work on the cross. If you deny that, you're not believing the Scriptures. (Bible)
Why don't you stop the name-calling and angry posts? Try it.
I doubt you read the passage, because you missed the entire judgment that God is bringing, which results in the destruction of the wicked. Let me share it here so you have no excuse for your ignorance.
2 Peter 3:2-18
[2]I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles.
[3]Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires.
[4]They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”
[5]They deliberately forget that God made the heavens long ago by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water.
[6]Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood.
[7]And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.
[8]But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.
[9]The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.
[10]But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.
[11]Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live,
[12]looking forward to the day of God and hurrying it along. On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames.
[13]But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness.
[14]And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight.
[15]And remember, our Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—
[16]speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.
[17]You already know these things, dear friends. So be on guard; then you will not be carried away by the errors of these wicked people and lose your own secure footing.
[18]Rather, you must grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.All glory to him, both now and forever! Amen.
This is the go-to of Pelagians.
Read verses 1 and 2 because those verses explain what Paul is saying.
God is not limited to one social status when He saves. He saves all varieties of social status, including kings and leaders for whom we should pray. We Christians should not think that God doesn't save certain groups.
Paul is teaching them not to be prejudiced.
1 Timothy 2:1-6,8
[1]I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them.
[2]Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity.
[3]This is good and pleases God our Savior,
[4]who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.
[5]For,There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.
[6]He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone.This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.
[8]In every place of worship, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up to God, free from anger and controversy.
Pelagians always forget to read the entire dialogue with Nicodemus. If you did, you would see your error.
John 3:1-21
[1]There was a man named Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader who was a Pharisee.
[2]After dark one evening, he came to speak with Jesus. “Rabbi,” he said, “we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you.”
[3]Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
[4]“What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?”
[5]Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.
[6]Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.
[7]So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’
[8]The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”
[9]“How are these things possible?” Nicodemus asked.
[10]Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things?
[11]I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony.
[12]But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?
[13]No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.
[14]And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
[15]so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.
[16]“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
[17]God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
[18]“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.
[19]And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.
[20]All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
[21]But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”
It must be difficult for you when you struggle to observe scripture as a whole and in context rather than force your philosophy into the text.
I cannot help you with your ignorance, but I do encourage you to stop following Pelagian. He was correctly labeled a heretic by Augustine. You keep following him as you do and you'll find yourself enjoying fellowship with gregory and FL.
Instead of allowing the Bible to dictate what you believe, you are allowing Calvinism to dictate what you believe. The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus has provided salvation for EVERYONE.
"That he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.
You have chosen to believe the teachings of a heretic, instead of believing God's word.
beloved57
Well-known member
Its no gospel to tell people sinners Christ lived and died for are still lost. What kind of good news is that ? Thats a false gospel
In the Old Testament era people were saved and justified by their faith in God's promise of a savior. They looked forward to seeing the savior, Hebrews 11:13. We look back to when Jesus was here. Whether you are looking back or looking forward it is by faith.