Theology Club: The end of gifts, raising the dead, speaking in foreign language (tongues)

[Lighthouse]

Galatians 5:19-21

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Bold my own emphasis.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
-1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Highlight emphasis mine

 

[godrulz]

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
-! Corinthians 6:9-11

Highlight emphasis mine

What point are you two making?

 

[Lighthouse]

What point are you two making?

One that's clearly over your head.

 

[godrulz]

One that's clearly over your head.

Listen here, whippersnapper. I was around before colour TVs were!

 

[Totton Linnet]

Corinth was a Gentile assembly established by Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles, the body of Christ. In this Gentile assembly were set the ministry functions.

Healing, signs and wonders, miracles, prophecy, tongues, interpretations of tongues, discernment of spirits and the gift of administration. It was identical to the church established by the Jewish Apostles in Jerusalem.

They turned the old pagan world upside down with these "childish" gifts......was Paul childish? who spoke in tongues more than anyone else, was Christ childish? is the Holy Spirit childish?

Would Nicky boy be childish if he laid his hands upon a sick and suffering one and that one was healed?

This is what America needs and Europe even more...Africa has it and whole nations in Africa have turned to Christ under Pentecostal ministry. MILLIONS are coming to Christ in China through Pentecostal and Charismatic ministries, there are more born again Christians in China today than in America, and they endure brutal persecution.

 

[Guyver]

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
-! Corinthians 6:9-11

Highlight emphasis mine

So, are you saying that if someone was saved from these dead works, as mentioned above here, like drunkenness and partying, and they go back to it...they were never saved in the first place?

Or did they just think they were saved but really weren't?

 

[Nick M]

So, are you saying that if someone was saved from these dead works, as mentioned above here, like drunkenness and partying, and they go back to it.

Behavior of the flesh for those who are in Christ has no bearing on salvation. You shouldn't do it because it is wrong, but God does not see it. In Christ there is no sin because there is no law. Those that view the flesh in regards to salvation are carnally minded. You judge life on outward appearance, rather than what the heart confesses through the mouth.

 

[Nick M]

Sorry...no I guess I don't understand your point.

Acts 26:16

16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you.

I think maybe you should make a case. I'm still not really getting what your talking about. The gifts were present in the churches that Paul was writing Epistles to. Has something changed since then?

Yes, not all was revealed to him. In one of the letters to Corinth he told them the return was imminent. Yet it clearly wasn't. Not all was revealed from the start. My thought is that Israel still had a chance at restoration.

Are God's promises conditional?

Regarding earthly Kingdoms, yes.

Jeremiah 18

7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Is his word conditional?

Often, yes. When he speaks through prophets he says do this, or else. Remember Nineveh?

The kingdom on earth hasn't happend yet, but neither has the Tribulation Period. Do you think those things are done away also?

Maybe, I don't know. When the fullness of the gentiles comes in, the blindness of Israel will be lifted. We can not say for certain what the fullness is. I have ideas, as many do, but that can not be proven through scripture that I see.

My Bible tells me that if God speaks a thing, he'll bring it to pass.

Depends on what it is. When the Lord Jesus Christ came, he said through the prophets what he would do, and there was no stopping him.

I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it[/I]."

Was Nineveh overthrown?

Jonah 3

4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

Most people miss the point. They talk about the fish the Lord prepared. Frankly, I don't care. He is God and he can make the animals do whatever he wants, like bring them to Noah. Nineveh was not destroyed even though he said they would be.



Jonah 3

10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.



Jeremiah 18

7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.

 

[vegascowboy]

This is a great and informative thread. Thank you all for sharing.

 

[Nick M]

Thank you all for sharing.

Do you have anything to share for us?

 

[Guyver]

This reply is for Nick or Lighthouse, since we've been discussing this..

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
-! Corinthians 6:9-11

Highlight emphasis mine

So, Paul says the unrighteous won't inherit the kingdom of God... and he lists a bunch of unrighteous behaviors. Then he goes on to say that some of us used to do those things, but we've been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus. OK...we all get that.

But, my question...is what happens if one is washed from these sins.. and let's just say that many years go by...then the person goes back to one or more of these things.

Does practicing these things make a person unjustified now? If practicing these things doesn't make one unjustified...why would he say this as if it's a warning to not do these things?

He certainly used this language before. Remember when he taught us not to have sex with prostitutes? He was making it clear that it's not a salvation issue...but a holiness/sanctification/respect for God deal.

1 Corinthians 6:15

 

[Guyver]

Here's a better illustration.

There's a pastor who believes and preaches the gospel for many years.

He leads many to Christ, preaches thousands of right on gospel messages every Sunday for years and years. He visits the sick, and the imprisoned, he gives to the poor and supports the work of missions.

His wife gets fat. Really fat.

He runs off with the church secretary....divorces his wife, ditches his children and spends the rest of his life drinking himself to death in regret.

Is he saved, or lost?

 

[godrulz]

Behavior of the flesh for those who are in Christ has no bearing on salvation. You shouldn't do it because it is wrong, but God does not see it. In Christ there is no sin because there is no law. Those that view the flesh in regards to salvation are carnally minded. You judge life on outward appearance, rather than what the heart confesses through the mouth.

God does not see? Since when is he like a wooden idol!? Sin is sin with or without the law. The moral law of God was not rescinded (except the Sabbath), but was reiterated by Jesus and Paul (Jesus took it beyond externals to the motives and thoughts).

You are talking exchanged life sinless perfectionism, not biblical truth.

Paul dealt with sinning saints harshly. Exhortations to practical holiness and loving obedience do not cease just because we believe (we love/obey because we are saved, not in order to earn or become saved).

 

[godrulz]

Here's a better illustration.

There's a pastor who believes and preaches the gospel for many years.

He leads many to Christ, preaches thousands of right on gospel messages every Sunday for years and years. He visits the sick, and the imprisoned, he gives to the poor and supports the work of missions.

His wife gets fat. Really fat.

He runs off with the church secretary....divorces his wife, ditches his children and spends the rest of his life drinking himself to death in regret.

Is he saved, or lost?

Did he reject the person and work of Christ or just wreck his temporal relationships?

Faith vs unbelief are the conditions of salvation vs damnation, not behaviour.

 

[Guyver]

Did he reject the person and work of Christ or just wreck his temporal relationships?

Faith vs unbelief are the conditions of salvation vs damnation, not behaviour.

He never lost his faith in God or in Jesus and his sacrifice. He never spoke a word against anything about God or Jesus or the church.

He just felt the church was not for him and once he started drinking, he just couldn't stop, and that's how he lived his life till he died.

Always believed in his heart, but never said another word about it to anyone, kept his beliefs to himself but never went to church again.

 

[godrulz]

He never lost his faith in God or in Jesus and his sacrifice. He never spoke a word against anything about God or Jesus or the church.

He just felt the church was not for him and once he started drinking, he just couldn't stop, and that's how he lived his life till he died.

Always believed in his heart, but never said another word about it to anyone, kept his beliefs to himself but never went to church again.

True story? I thought it was hypothetical.

God alone knows the heart and will do the right thing: Genesis 18:25

 

[Guyver]

True story? I thought it was hypothetical.

God alone knows the heart and will do the right thing: Genesis 18:25

I just made it up....but I know some similar stories.

MAD people are not jumping on it at all. So, let me break it down.

You say that God knows the heart. True. God knew David's heart before and after he took another man's wife and killed the guy for it. And, it seems that if not for Nathan, maybe David would never have said a word about it....IDK.

I'm not speaking about a heart issue. I'm speaking about a flesh issue...you know...the works of the flesh.

Can someone spend years believing the gospel and living right, then spend years drinking too much and be saved?

Can someone spend years believing the gospel, and then convert to homosexuality and still believe the same things but live their lives like a homosexual and still be saved?

I'd like to know what you think, and what the MAD people think.

And just so no one calls me chicken...here's what I think. I don't know.

 

[godrulz]

MAD is OSAS. I would reject this and see perseverance as conditional vs unconditional.

Apostasy/falling away is possible. This is primarily rejecting the person and work of Christ, not falling into alcoholism or something.

Some who go down the slippery slope of sin end up far from God and essentially rejecting Him in the end.

So, it is not easy to fall away, but it is possible. God alone knows the heart. The issue is still receiving and remaining in Christ vs rejecting Him. Christians can struggle with sin. There is no end to 'what if' 'what about this' scenarios, so we go on principles and ultimately leave judging to God.

 

[Nick M]

Here's a better illustration.

There's a pastor who believes and preaches the gospel for many years.

He leads many to Christ, preaches thousands of right on gospel messages every Sunday for years and years. He visits the sick, and the imprisoned, he gives to the poor and supports the work of missions.

His wife gets fat. Really fat.

He runs off with the church secretary....divorces his wife, ditches his children and spends the rest of his life drinking himself to death in regret.

That is an example of the mind being set on the flesh in regards to salvation. All things are lawful. The body is dead because of sin, and it not to be regarded.

You should do what is right because it is right and honorable.


2 Corinthians 13:7

7 Now I pray to God that you do no evil, not that we should appear approved, but that you should do what is honorable, though we may seem disqualified.


Romans 8:10

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

It isn't that the flesh stops coveting. It is that in Christ there is no law and there is no sin. You are a slave to righteousness. The body is not regarded because it is dead. When judging salvation that is.

 

[Guyver]

Acts 26:16

16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you.



Yes, not all was revealed to him. In one of the letters to Corinth he told them the return was imminent. Yet it clearly wasn't. Not all was revealed from the start. My thought is that Israel still had a chance at restoration.



Regarding earthly Kingdoms, yes.

Jeremiah 18

7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.



Often, yes. When he speaks through prophets he says do this, or else. Remember Nineveh?



Maybe, I don't know. When the fullness of the gentiles comes in, the blindness of Israel will be lifted. We can not say for certain what the fullness is. I have ideas, as many do, but that can not be proven through scripture that I see.



Depends on what it is. When the Lord Jesus Christ came, he said through the prophets what he would do, and there was no stopping him.




Was Nineveh overthrown?

Jonah 3

4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

Most people miss the point. They talk about the fish the Lord prepared. Frankly, I don't care. He is God and he can make the animals do whatever he wants, like bring them to Noah. Nineveh was not destroyed even though he said they would be.



Jonah 3

10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.



Jeremiah 18

7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.

Solid post Nick.