The Book of Revelation: Mystery Or Profitable?

fzappa13

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Temp Banned
On the original point about the effect of their eating of the Tree, just think it through. If all you do is accept the premise that God is just then that premise, by itself, is sufficient to prove your thesis false. Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to eat of that Tree because God told them not to eat of it and warned them of the consequences if they chose to disobey.
No, they didn't know it was wrong, they were told it was wrong ... there's a difference. Satan told Eve something else and not knowing good from evil she went with it and so did Adam. You keep trying to invent ways that God didn't really mean what He said to fit the dictates of your "logic". I don't understand that inclination. He said what He meant and He meant what he said. How's that for a "premise?"
 
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fzappa13

Well-known member
Temp Banned
Well, two things on Earth are almost completely predictable. The actions of crowds and the fact that anyone who calls himself a Christian but instinctively hates justice will bring up John 8:3-11 anytime someone advocates actual justice.

Jesus DID NOT abolish the death penalty in John 8! All he did was outsmart those who were attempting to get him into trouble with the Roman authorities before the appointed time.

This and several other points concerning the death penalty for crimes such as adultery are very well established in the following article. I strongly recommend you read it because you current stance, whether you intend it or not, implies that God is arbitrary (i.e. unjust).

What Does the Bible Say About the Death Penalty
I'm reminded of a song by Bruce Cockburn the punch line of which reads " Everyone loves to see justice done ... on somebody else." You've missed the most important point of the New Testament.

Love.

Concerning judgement:

John 12: 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Rom 14:10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

John 8:
13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Mat 7:
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

James 4:
11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Rom 12:
17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


... and from judgment to love

Luke 6:
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Mat 5:
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


1 John 4:

7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19We love him, because he first loved us.

20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 Cor 13:
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.




Love is the most important thing. Lay hands on that and the rest of it is easy. Neglect love and everything else you bring forth is of no value to you or anyone else except as a warning.
 
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fzappa13

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You've given me no reason to think I need to unlearn anything concerning Freemasonry. It seems to me that you've simply put on a pair of "Freemasons are the bad guys" glasses and called it "relearning". You present in manner similar (although not as insane) to what I've experienced debating those who believe that the Earth is flat and that the powers that be (including Freemasons by the way) have duped the entire population of the Earth into thinking that the planet is a sphere. Every evidence, every counter example, every possible falsifying argument is twisted into evidence in favor of their conspiracy theory. The purpose of this deception is never articulated just as you cannot tell me what purpose the Freemasons have as their goal nor by what means they intend to achieve it. It's all just conspiracy theory nonsense as far as I'm concerned.
Beloved Clete, you dismiss historical fact and that which you cannot defend as "conspiracy theory" and then try to associate same with that which is indefensible for the purpose of dismissing it without addressing it. I have come to expect this from main stream media but I was hoping for something a little better from you.
 

fzappa13

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Temp Banned
Also, I can see by this and your last post that I need to make something very clear. I am not endorsing the Freemasons. There are certain things that they have done and that they still do that can come off to some as an appearance of evil. That, along with their secretive nature is precisely what spawns the conspiracy theorists, such as yourself. Having said that, they seem to do no harm to anyone at all and, to the contrary, they really do an awesome amount of excellent work in regards to providing outstanding care of sick children and they do so free of charge to the families that need it.
Mat 6:
1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Interesting post.
Thank you.

So that's why he was in the Garden? is what you're saying? Because he got kicked out of Heaven? So the only realm left was Earth? Why couldn't God have just killed him? This is why I'm saying it's very important for theology to deal with this Scriptural fact of the Accuser's presence in Eden.


Is it possible that whereas 1/3 of the angels fell from grace 1/3 of us will fall to grace and that this is a part of the point and purpose of the situation of which you speak?
But 1/3 of whom (or what; as in, body, or people, or population)? Does anybody know what fraction of the House of Israel believed in and followed Our Lord in that first Church? 1/3 of 12 is 4 ---- is 4 /12 meaningful? Were four of the Twelve Apostles particularly "refined?" How about 4 of the 12 tribes?
 

fzappa13

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Temp Banned
Thank you.


So that's why he was in the Garden? is what you're saying? Because he got kicked out of Heaven? So the only realm left was Earth? Why couldn't God have just killed him? This is why I'm saying it's very important for theology to deal with this Scriptural fact of the Accuser's presence in Eden.
No. It would appear from other passages that he still has access to the heavenly realm for a while longer. The first such passage may be found in Job 1.

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

At this point he appears to have access to both heaven and earth. Another interesting but more oblique passage is in the last chapter of Ephesians:

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The word here translated "high" is defined as follows:

ἐπουράνιος epouránios, ep-oo-ran'-ee-os; from G1909 and G3772; above the sky:—celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high.
  1. existing in heaven
    1. things that take place in heaven
    2. the heavenly regions
      1. heaven itself, the abode of God and angels
      2. the lower heavens, of the stars
      3. the heavens, of the clouds
    3. the heavenly temple or sanctuary
  2. of heavenly origin or nature

This term occurs in 4 other places in Ephesians and is translated "heavenly" in all occasions except here. This leads me to suspect some translator's doctrinal toes got stepped on here thus necessitating this apparent mistranslation. The more extensive and conclusive scriptures on this subject are to be found in Revelation. I won't reproduce it here and clog up this thread but I offered the scriptures I though relevant around Rev 12 that cover Satan's expulsion from heaven and the 3 1/2 time period he runs amok here on earth before being banished to his pit for 1000 years in my thread concerning the two resurrections.

But 1/3 of whom (or what; as in, body, or people, or population)? Does anybody know what fraction of the House of Israel believed in and followed Our Lord in that first Church? 1/3 of 12 is 4 ---- is 4 /12 meaningful? Were four of the Twelve Apostles particularly "refined?" How about 4 of the 12 tribes?
The study of the terms "one third" and "a third" is a fascinating one and might hold some clues as it concerns your questions.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Here's my view of it in a simplistic nutshell:

I lean towards the viewpoint that Satan's actual rebellion happened in the garden when he tempted mankind to rebel because Ezekiel 28 tells of him being in the garden and was blameless until unrighteousness was found in him and we don't see a judgement being pronounced on Satan until he tempted mankind in the garden.
I believe Adam & Eve lived among the angelic host in the garden, the mountain of God, and that the angelic host was to watch over mankind since the angelic host was sometimes referred to as "watchers".
I believe Adam & Eve knew that Satan (the serpent) was of the angelic host and that's why Eve didn't have any fear or discomfort talking with him,

I don't believe that God ever expected his creation to have the perfect wisdom that God had, and thus were always prone to failure, and thus God already established a remedy plan when He created.
OK. I guess that does avoid the problem of why God would give the World to Adam and Eve, with demons included then. Because there were no demons until Satan fell /rebelled, right there in Genesis. That would also explain why God would call His creation "Very Good," because at that point, it was. e4e
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
No. It would appear from other passages that he still has access to the heavenly realm for a while longer. The first such passage may be found in Job 1.

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

At this point he appears to have access to both heaven and earth. Another interesting but more oblique passage is in the last chapter of Ephesians:

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The word here translated "high" is defined as follows:

ἐπουράνιος epouránios, ep-oo-ran'-ee-os; from G1909 and G3772; above the sky:—celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high.
  1. existing in heaven
    1. things that take place in heaven
    2. the heavenly regions
      1. heaven itself, the abode of God and angels
      2. the lower heavens, of the stars
      3. the heavens, of the clouds
    3. the heavenly temple or sanctuary
  2. of heavenly origin or nature

This term occurs in 4 other places in Ephesians and is translated "heavenly" in all occasions except here. This leads me to suspect some translator's doctrinal toes got stepped on here thus necessitating this apparent mistranslation. The more extensive and conclusive scriptures on this subject are to be found in Revelation. I won't reproduce it here and clog up this thread but I offered the scriptures I though relevant around Rev 12 that cover Satan's expulsion from heaven and the 3 1/2 time period he runs amok here on earth before being banished to his pit for 1000 years in my thread concerning the two resurrections.
Do you think any of this bears on Luke 10?
"17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

The study of the terms "one third" and "a third" is a fascinating one and might hold some clues as it concerns your questions.
One could argue the number 666 represents 2/3 (666 being roughly 2/3 of 1000). I'll check the Scripture for other places the term appears.
 

Tambora

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OK. I guess that does avoid the problem of why God would give the World to Adam and Eve, with demons included then. Because there were no demons until Satan fell /rebelled, right there in Genesis. That would also explain why God would call His creation "Very Good," because at that point, it was. e4e
It does when looked at through that perspective.

However there are some that look at it through the perspective that God was an unfit father by placing His children in a playpen where He kew there was poisonous fruit.

One can make God appear good or bad depending on which perspective they view the story from.

And then there is differing perspectives on who actually planted the tree with the poisonous fruit in the garden since we have scripture saying that the devil also plants seeds (Matthew 13:24-30), and we also have scripture saying that every tree that was not planted by God will be rooted up (Matthew 15:13) and we see that the final heavenly kingdom in Revelation has the tree of life but not the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

So it's good to talk through all the perspectives.
I'm glad we can do that here.
 

fzappa13

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Temp Banned
Do you think any of this bears on Luke 10?
"17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

On more than one occasion Jesus would segue from conversation to prophesy without using a turn signal and I think this one of those occasions.

One could argue the number 666 represents 2/3 (666 being roughly 2/3 of 1000). I'll check the Scripture for other places the term appears.
I had not thought of looking at the subject of thirds from the other side of the equation. Nice catch.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
It does when looked at through that perspective.

However there are some that look at it through the perspective that God was an unfit father by placing His children in a playpen where He kew there was poisonous fruit.
idk about that. Seems to me that without demons "whispering" to Eve, that she could have obeyed God and avoided that tree. Certainly the Serpent is an important character in the story's plot.

One can make God appear good or bad depending on which perspective they view the story from.
I said already this is important for theology but it's just as important for theism generally. Why evil? Why suffering? Why? Problem of evil. Theodicy.

And then there is differing perspectives on who actually planted the tree with the poisonous fruit in the garden since we have scripture saying that the devil also plants seeds (Matthew 13:24-30), and we also have scripture saying that every tree that was not planted by God will be rooted up (Matthew 15:13) and we see that the final heavenly kingdom in Revelation has the tree of life but not the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
If Satan planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (which btw is basically what we today term "moral philosophy" or ethics) then we have God's command to Adam and Eve following Satan's fall, chonologically. This prompts again the question c. "Why didn't God just dispatch Satan then? and uproot that tree right then?"

So it's good to talk through all the perspectives.
I'm glad we can do that here.
Awesome.
 

Tambora

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If Satan planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (which btw is basically what we today term "moral philosophy" or ethics) then we have God's command to Adam and Eve following Satan's fall, chonologically. This prompts again the question c. "Why didn't God just dispatch Satan then? and uproot that tree right then?"
We can't second guess God, but we can speculate why.

Perhaps it was because through Adam & Eve generations of children any of them could eventually screw up somehow since Adam & Eve screwed up despite being created "good" and in a lovely garden in fellowship with God Himself.
Might as well let everyone know right up front that those screw ups can happen to anyone no matter how lovely or chaotic a situation they live in, but to not fear because God has already planned the remedy and for you to know that He loves you no matter how imperfect you are.

I know that as a child I would feel the greatest love from my parents when I did something that hurt and disappointed them and they would hug me close and say "That's ok, we love you anyway and will find a way to work it out".

But that's just one perspective.
 

fzappa13

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Temp Banned
If Satan planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (which btw is basically what we today term "moral philosophy" or ethics) then we have God's command to Adam and Eve following Satan's fall, chonologically. This prompts again the question c. "Why didn't God just dispatch Satan then? and uproot that tree right then?"
I don't know that I would necessarily go there because of something Tam reminded me of, namely, the absence of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil after the second resurrection. It reminded me of the fact that several of the original temple ordinances offered in Leviticus are absent from the ordinances concerning the millennial temple described in Ez 40-48. These observances are all prophetic and at the time of the millennial temple some of them will have been fulfilled and no longer pertinent. It could be that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil falls into that category as well in that it is no longer pertinent then but was at the time of it's existence and not necessarily evil, per se, but a part of God's plan that had served it's purpose.
 
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Clete

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No, they didn't know it was wrong, they were told it was wrong ... there's a difference.
They knew it was wrong after they were told, which was BEFORE they committed the offense or else there would not have been an offense - by definition.

Satan told Eve something else and not knowing good from evil she went with it and so did Adam.
Well there's your opinions and then there's God's own word. The whole of Romans 5 is false if what you say is correct.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)​
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​


You keep trying to invent ways that God didn't really mean what He said to fit the dictates of your "logic".
Saying it doesn't make it so.

This is a sentence that belongs at the BEGINNING of an argument. Simply making a claim doesn't count as either an argument nor a rebuttal.

I don't understand that inclination. He said what He meant and He meant what he said. How's that for a "premise?"
I have no idea what you're even referring to. Please try to make a complete point.

I do not deny that God meant what He said, I deny that He meant what you say He meant.
 

Clete

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I'm reminded of a song by Bruce Cockburn the punch line of which reads " Everyone loves to see justice done ... on somebody else." You've missed the most important point of the New Testament.

Love.

Concerning judgement:

John 12: 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Rom 14:10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

John 8:
13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Mat 7:
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

James 4:
11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Rom 12:
17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


... and from judgment to love

Luke 6:
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Mat 5:
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


1 John 4:

7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19We love him, because he first loved us.

20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 Cor 13:
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.




Love is the most important thing. Lay hands on that and the rest of it is easy. Neglect love and everything else you bring forth is of no value to you or anyone else except as a warning.
If you think that love and justice are at odds with each other than you do not know God.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Beloved Clete, you dismiss historical fact and that which you cannot defend as "conspiracy theory" and then try to associate same with that which is indefensible for the purpose of dismissing it without addressing it. I have come to expect this from main stream media but I was hoping for something a little better from you.
I dismiss your interpretation of history and I've stated at least once already that I do not hold people responsible for the transgressions of their ancestors.

Do you reject the observance of Easter and Christmas because of their history?
Do you and your wife have any desire to get rid of wedding rings because of the pagan origins of that tradition?

No, you don't, nor should you!
Why?

Because the history of those traditions have pretty much nothing to do with what they mean to people today. Likewise, the history of Freemasonry is less than ideal but there's no real evidence that there is anything nefarious about that group today. Today, they've morphed into a fundraising organization for children's hospitals and that is, more or less, what they're about. To condemn the entire organization be perpetuate the idea that they're all a bunch of shadow politicians with leanings toward Satan worship is no different than what BLM and Antifa do when they condemn the whole of western civilization and America in particular because of a slave trade that we abolished more than a century ago.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
This for some reason prompted the thought that this is what this country did with the slave trade. It permitted slavery and in such an environment the natural economic forces brought about two things, consolidation and centralization of the slave trade. Where before, there were many slave traders, economic forces brought about consolidation and centralization, such that the slave trade itself became a lost art everywhere except the consolidated, centralized slave traders.

Once we outlawed the slave trade, it was easy to do, because of the prior consolidation and centralization which flourished while it was legal. They were shut down, and easily.

Like letting the wheat and the tares grow up together, they distinguished themselves, and it was easy to collect the tares and throw them into the fire.

Just a thought fwiw.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
This sort of thing is the main reason I consent to participate in discussions with conspiracy theorists. They are their own best refutation. It's never very long before they begin to just sound completely ridiculous.

What Jesus said in Matthew 6 has exactly NOTHING to do with what we're talking about. Jesus was making reference to the fools who went around town making themselves look conspicuously pious when they were actually the opposite of that. Jesus wasn't teaching against piety, He was teaching against being pretentious and hypocritical. He certainly was not prohibiting public fundraising efforts intended to help sick children!

Do you have even one piece of evidence to present that the Shriners aren't really that interested in helping sick children?

NO! You sure as hell do not!

I, on the other hand, can offer first person testimony! I know by my own personal experience and knowledge that the Shriners take their members to Children's hospitals so that they can see first hand the work that is being done; so that they can meet the children and see for themselves the effect that the money they raise has on them and their families. I can tell you, because I saw with my own eyes the tears in my father's eyes when his efforts raised more than four times the amount of money that they had expected to raise one summer when they invested a bunch of their own personal money (i.e. not the shrine's money but money that came out of my dad's own pocket) to buy and then sell fireworks for the fourth of July.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
This for some reason prompted the thought that this is what this country did with the slave trade. It permitted slavery and in such an environment the natural economic forces brought about two things, consolidation and centralization of the slave trade. Where before, there were many slave traders, economic forces brought about consolidation and centralization, such that the slave trade itself became a lost art everywhere except the consolidated, centralized slave traders.

Once we outlawed the slave trade, it was easy to do, because of the prior consolidation and centralization which flourished while it was legal. They were shut down, and easily.

Like letting the wheat and the tares grow up together, they distinguished themselves, and it was easy to collect the tares and throw them into the fire.

Just a thought fwiw.
Except that there seems to be no evidence that the Freemasons amount to much of a tare, if any at all.

What harm do they do to anyone?

I mean, if they're evil, they're simultaneously one of the largest and wealthiest and most totally ineffective forces of evil the world has every seen!
 
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