The Bible is not a maths textbook

patrick jane

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Wow, that is a bold claim.

I would rate this "all" as a case where it means most but definitely not all.

I know of one Israelite who will definitely not be saved, and even just this one exception proves it does not mean "all - without exception". That failed Israelite is Judas.

He is called the "son of perdition". Looking up perdition - it means damned forever, i.e. not saved.

Another failure was king Saul. And God swore in His wrath that not one adult Israelite who left Egypt would enter His eternal rest, meaning they are toast.


Hebrews 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.

Then they weren't in the "ALL" - they were not Israelites in God's Eyes. I can tell you, no matter how long or how hard you search, you will never find a broken promise or false word from God. The Bible has never been proven wrong in any point and never will be. Literally
 

Greg Jennings

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Then they weren't in the "ALL" - they were not Israelites in God's Eyes. I can tell you, no matter how long or how hard you search, you will never find a broken promise or false word from God. The Bible has never been proven wrong in any point and never will be. Literally

Well, if you accept the creation story as literal, then actually science has pretty much disproven that. In fact it disproved it about 150 years ago. But since a lot of religious scholars don't even think it's supposed to be literal then your statement makes more sense
 

patrick jane

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Well, if you accept the creation story as literal, then actually science has pretty much disproven that. In fact it disproved it about 150 years ago. But since a lot of religious scholars don't even think it's supposed to be literal then your statement makes more sense

Certainly not. Nobody knows a thing past 7,000 years ago !
 

iouae

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Then they weren't in the "ALL" - they were not Israelites in God's Eyes. I can tell you, no matter how long or how hard you search, you will never find a broken promise or false word from God. The Bible has never been proven wrong in any point and never will be. Literally

But if you take all to mean "most" and not "all without exception" then you don't have a problem. That has been the whole point of this thread.

Imagine you make a promise to your kid such as "Tomorrow I will take you to see Minions". Your kid jumps up and down with joy, and can hardly sleep for excitement at seeing the movie Minions.

So tomorrow comes and you take the kid to the kitchen table to show her minions - lots and lots of plastic toys on the table.

"But Daddy, I thought you were going to take me to see the movie Minions".

And you reply "No my daughter IN MY EYES I meant these plastic replicas".

All you have done is destroy all future trust with your kid.

And God is OBSESSED with gaining mankind's trust.

So God has to mean what He says, and say what He means.
And when we take "all" to mean "without exception" that is us misreading the Bible. It never ever implies or says that "all" means "all" as we are demanding.

There are over 4000 places "all" is used. This scripture is just one of many where "all" has exceptions.

Why would you expect all Israelites to be saved when there are clearly many destined to be burned up in hell fire. Is God discriminating and only burning up Gentiles in hell? I thought there was neither Jew nor Greek any more.
 

iouae

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Certainly not. Nobody knows a thing past 7,000 years ago !

Looking at the moon, one is seeing it as it was 1.3 seconds ago.
Looking at the sun, we see it as it was 8 minutes ago.
Looking at our nearest star, alpha centauri, we see it as it was 4 years ago.
Looking at deep space through a telescope like Hubble we are seeing the universe as it was up to 12 billion years ago. We see galaxies exactly like they looked back then.

Looking through a telescope is like looking into a time-machine.
 

dialm

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Wow, that is a bold claim.

I would rate this "all" as a case where it means most but definitely not all.

I know of one Israelite who will definitely not be saved, and even just this one exception proves it does not mean "all - without exception". That failed Israelite is Judas.

He is called the "son of perdition". Looking up perdition - it means damned forever, i.e. not saved.

Another failure was king Saul. And God swore in His wrath that not one adult Israelite who left Egypt would enter His eternal rest, meaning they are toast.


Hebrews 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.

To me, a Calvinist, the Old Testament term 'Israelite' is equivalent to the New Testament term 'Elect'. All the elect will be saved.

But to the none Calvinist anyone and everyone, your 'all' are subject to destruction. (I reject such a notion on the grounds that God is greater than ALL our enemies.)
 

iouae

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To me, a Calvinist, the Old Testament term 'Israelite' is equivalent to the New Testament term 'Elect'. All the elect will be saved.

But to the none Calvinist anyone and everyone, your 'all' are subject to destruction. (I reject such a notion on the grounds that God is greater than ALL our enemies.)

I don't see anywhere in the Old Covenant where salvation was promised. "Blessings in the field... enemies flee.." but not salvation. See Deut 28
 

dialm

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I don't see anywhere in the Old Covenant where salvation was promised. "Blessings in the field... enemies flee.." but not salvation. See Deut 28

Paul said that the just shall live by faith. And while those in the Old Testament did not have the concept of salvation as we do today,

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Although there are many here that would say belief is a work, faith originates with God. And if a person has faith it is because God instilled it in that person. Faith in God is a foreign object to humans. Old or New Testament does not matter. There is no salvation unless God brings it to us. The natural man doesn't even know he is lost.
 

oatmeal

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Many read the Bible and INSIST that we take every word literally (when it suits their point of view).

I do like to take the Bible as literally as possible, but not to the extreme of trying to apply it like a maths formula where "all" = infinite, and "none" = 0.

This insistence is particularly loud when it comes to extreme words such as "all" or "none".

To prove that the Bible uses such words as we usually do in everyday language, just do a search for scriptures using "all" and it is clear that the word seldom means each and every, with the exclusion of nothing.

Yet the mathematical exegesists will insist that when God says "all" He means "all - with the exclusion of none".

Look at the following scriptures and a natural reading would make it sound ridiculous to insist that "all" means more than "most".


Matthew 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

Was there not one person (even a 2 year old) not troubled?

Matthew 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

Does this not mean "most"? Will anyone insist that no scribe might have been away or sick?

Matthew 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

Did every single person of Judaea go to see Jesus? Obviously not.

Likewise do your own search for "none" and other all inclusive words like "always" to see that Bible writers use these words like we do today, and like mankind has always done.

Your point is an accurate one.

All has two basic meanings:

1. All without exception

2. All within a certain distinction or within a certain parameter.

Most certainly we are to take scripture literally where ever and whenever possible, but when phrases are not true to fact, then we encounter God's uses of figures of speech

Jesus used similes, metaphors and hypocatastatis for purposes of comparison. For instance, he used simile "the kingdom of heaven is like a woman who put leaven in some meal"

Matthew 13:33

Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

the kingdom of heaven is not literally that but is like that. He uses the simile in a parable which is an extended simile.

A metaphor, the field is the world, when he explained a parable

Matthew 13:38

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

An example of hypocatastasis is the use of fox to refer to Herod.

Luke 13:32

And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

God uses the figure hyperbole

Judges 7:12 And the Midianites and the Amalekites and all the children of the east lay along in the valley like grasshoppers for multitude; and their camels were without number, as the sand by the sea side for multitude.

We take scripture literally when possible, but we know God uses figures of speech abundantly in scripture
 

patrick jane

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Looking at the moon, one is seeing it as it was 1.3 seconds ago.
Looking at the sun, we see it as it was 8 minutes ago.
Looking at our nearest star, alpha centauri, we see it as it was 4 years ago.
Looking at deep space through a telescope like Hubble we are seeing the universe as it was up to 12 billion years ago. We see galaxies exactly like they looked back then.

Looking through a telescope is like looking into a time-machine.

But they still can't find God or other life anywhere
 

iouae

Well-known member
Your point is an accurate one.

All has two basic meanings:

1. All without exception

2. All within a certain distinction or within a certain parameter.

Most certainly we are to take scripture literally where ever and whenever possible, but when phrases are not true to fact, then we encounter God's uses of figures of speech

Jesus used similes, metaphors and hypocatastatis for purposes of comparison. For instance, he used simile "the kingdom of heaven is like a woman who put leaven in some meal"

Matthew 13:33

Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

the kingdom of heaven is not literally that but is like that. He uses the simile in a parable which is an extended simile.

A metaphor, the field is the world, when he explained a parable

Matthew 13:38

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

An example of hypocatastasis is the use of fox to refer to Herod.

Luke 13:32

And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

God uses the figure hyperbole

Judges 7:12 And the Midianites and the Amalekites and all the children of the east lay along in the valley like grasshoppers for multitude; and their camels were without number, as the sand by the sea side for multitude.

We take scripture literally when possible, but we know God uses figures of speech abundantly in scripture

I LOVE your post!!
 

iouae

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But they still can't find God or other life anywhere

And neither will they since it is evolutionists who believe life spontaneously combusts into being.

But you were wrong in saying one can see nothing older than 7000 years. Every time one peers through a telescope into deep space, one is looking into the past. Care to address that?
 

patrick jane

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And neither will they since it is evolutionists who believe life spontaneously combusts into being.

But you were wrong in saying one can see nothing older than 7000 years. Every time one peers through a telescope into deep space, one is looking into the past. Care to address that?

Time doesn't matter to God, only to us. We try to measure time within our own understanding. Time is an illusion, look it up - Einschstein said so

Isaiah 40:28 KJV -


View attachment 20677
 

iouae

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Time doesn't matter to God, only to us. We try to measure time within our own understanding. Time is an illusion, look it up - Einschstein said so

Isaiah 40:28 KJV -

I cannot speak for Einstein because he is a little above me...
but I do believe he said there are 4 dimensions, with time being the 4th.

There seem to be length, breadth, height in heaven, and in Rev 8:1 when John was taken there, there was time too.

Revelation 8:1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

So time is not an illusion.
 

patrick jane

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I cannot speak for Einstein because he is a little above me...
but I do believe he said there are 4 dimensions, with time being the 4th.

There seem to be length, breadth, height in heaven, and in Rev 8:1 when John was taken there, there was time too.

Revelation 8:1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

So time is not an illusion.

yes it is - look it up yourself

SCIENCE
"THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TIME"
ASTROPHYSICIST ADAM FRANK'S NEW BOOK MIXES COSMOLOGY WITH HUMANITY. HOW DOES OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE UNIVERSE AND COSMIC TIME INFORM OUR DAILY LIVES? ESPECIALLY IF TIME IS AN ILLUSION?
 

iouae

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yes it is - look it up yourself

SCIENCE
"THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TIME"
ASTROPHYSICIST ADAM FRANK'S NEW BOOK MIXES COSMOLOGY WITH HUMANITY. HOW DOES OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE UNIVERSE AND COSMIC TIME INFORM OUR DAILY LIVES? ESPECIALLY IF TIME IS AN ILLUSION?

When you have read this book, please give us your summary.
 

patrick jane

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When you have read this book, please give us your summary.

That's just a recent book but since you love science so much, you might find the TIME to see that science has proven that time is an illusion. Or just keep checkin' your watch
 
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