ECT The Beast Revelation

Clete

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The Beast Revelation

This letter is dedicated to all Christians.

The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13. Its purpose is to show the method used in finding the conclusions which have been stated. Nothing new has been added from my previous letters. It is more of a compilation of them all. This writing is the same material in different words. The Bible uses this same method of explanation. There are four Gospels. In each you see a different view of the same material. This can be beneficial because the meaning becomes more exact. Although, if this is a first time reader, then this will all be news to you. With that in mind, here we go.

The first thing that should be addressed when doing any study of Bible prophecy is what questions do I intend to answer. Some of these questions can seem a little simplistic, but their answers are much more complicated. In my studies there were only a few questions that I saw as needing an answer. My questions were very simple. First, who is this individual who is identified by the number 666? Second, who is the false prophet and how does he make the whole world worship the beast whose number is 666. Another question has to do with these same individuals. Could these two individuals be the same person, or for that matter Satan himself? Where is Satan during all this? That last question is very important. It actually goes straight to the answer of all the questions. Finally, when would someone expect to see these individuals on the Earth? Literally, what time frame should I see them? Those are the questions. The answers are much more involved.

This narrative will attempt to show how the answers are figured out. These answers can be seen from events that happen in the nightly news. This leads me to a key, which most of us know, but most of us forget. The Bible is a history book. Some events have happened, while some are waiting to happen. It is the ones that have not happened that we are most concerned with. Here is another key. By the way, these keys I speak of are keys to understanding. The Lord spoke in parables. The reason he gave was that it was for some to know the mysteries of God, while it was for some to know not. In hearing, they do not hear. In seeing, they do not see. I compare it to telling the truth, while hiding it at the same time. Many of the parables that the Lord spoke he immediately gave an answer to. He showed how he used certain symbols and words to describe subjects and then gave their meanings. Now for the punch line. The Lord also spoke in parables that he did not identify. These parables go straight to the hidden meaning of these end times. Another key is word substitution. An example of this is a pretty well-known item from Revelation. This word substitution deals with Revelation 13:1. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. In Revelation 17 those heads and horns are defined. The heads are identified as mountains, while the horns are identified as kings. This changes the whole picture of what the beast is symbolically to what it is literally. Now Rev.13:1 can be read as follows with just the items discussed thus far. And I saw a beast rise up out of the sea having seven mountains and ten kings. That is a simple and easy word substitution. Know that this will happen many times throughout the Bible.

Now, getting back to the questions. The question is, where is Satan? If this question can be answered, you can eliminate some others. Some prophecy teachers believe that Satan is the beast, or that Satan is the false prophet. This interpretation is misleading, and it also creates a stumbling block in the path to a proper interpretation. I almost always get this question. How can you know who the beast is when he cannot be revealed? 2nd Thess. Chapter 2 states that he cannot be revealed, until something is removed first. Most scholars have this part right. That is a picture of the Rapture. What they have wrong is that Satan and the beast are not the same individual. Satan cannot be revealed until after the rapture, but he is not the beast. Therefore, I can identify the beast and his false prophet. People say prove it. So I did. I told them how to understand using the keys that I have mentioned. Revelation 13 is a parable, but God is not giving the definition, or the explanation. This one is for us to figure out. Ok, so where is Satan? In the book of Job, we get a view of Satan's abilities. In one scene, he is discussing with God about Job. Question, where is God? He is in heaven. Also, in his conversation with God Satan is talking as if he knows and has seen Job. God declares that he can do whatever he wants to Job, but he was not allowed to kill him. Now we know something else about Satan. He also has access to the Earth, and can affect peoples lives. So, it appears that Satan can be everywhere he wants to be, on Earth or in heaven. We know Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven as per Revelation 12. This would further the idea that he is now in heaven. We also see Satan one other time, when he tempted Christ during his time on Earth. It says that he was taken to the wilderness to be tempted of Satan? Most people, and rightly so, have thought the wilderness to be a place on Earth, but this is a parable I believe. The Lord was in the wilderness and was tempted by Satan, but the wilderness is in heaven. This parable is read in Isaiah 35. It is the wilderness and the solitary place where the redeemed of the Lord walk. So, this last item being the most hard to prove, suffice it to say, that when Rev.12 says Satan will be cast out, he must be there in heaven to be cast out. Alright, now we can answer a couple questions. One, Satan is himself, and he is in heaven. Therefore, he is not the beast or the false prophet. These three work together, but each has his own identity.

Now to dissect Revelation 13. As I have already stated, Revelation 13 is a word substitution parable. The seven heads are seven mountains and the ten horns are ten kings. Ok, we know from this description that the beast as described is a group of possibly ten countries. This brings me to another point. There are three definitions for the beast in Revelation 13. The first is a group of countries rising up out of the sea. The second is in Rev.13:11 and is a beast with two horns (kings). Remember horns are kings as per Rev. 17. Finally, there is a beast who is identified by the number 666. It is this last beast that causes all to receive a mark and that no man can buy and sell save he who has the mark, his number, or his name. There are three items here. Nowhere does it say that the mark is the number 666. This might have been a good guess 20 yrs. ago , but it is pretty hard to believe. Imagine people running around with a mark of 666 on their right hands. It sounds like a cartoon, but this is what the prophecy teachers want you to believe. Ok, another problem that sounds like a cartoon is the interpretation of the word "all." They want you to believe that no man could buy or sell if they did not worship the beast and take his mark. Interpreting the word "all" to mean everyone in the world. This is not the case. For one, we know that the beast is made up of only possibly ten countries. Everyone in this world lives in roughly 190 countries. I don't think we could possibly mean everyone. How about, all of those people concerned with the mark. Also, how do you cause all people concerned to receive a mark, and why? The most obvious way to mark everyone is at the voting booth. All people, rich and poor, small and great, or free and bond are potential voters. So, Mahmoud Abbas was elected president of the Palestinian Authority, and in the process all voters received an indelible ink mark on their right hands. This mark was to prevent double voting and corruption in the election. Ok, we have a mark. It is not 666. At this point he fits the part, but not completely. Still, there is no ready identification of 666 concerning him. This election was in January 2005.

Back to Rev.13. We have seven mountains and ten kings. Prophecy teachers want us to believe that a city with seven mountains is the seat of the antichrist and he rules with ten nations. Their logical conclusion was the Europe Union and the Vatican. This started the revived Roman empire theory. This theory has been around since the reformation. It is hard to believe this charade has gone on so long. Teachers are still preaching the Revived Roman Empire. This theory had some validity before the twentieth century and now has to be eliminated. None of these teachers could have predicted the fall of the Ottoman Empire and its division into so many separate sovereign nations. Back to our word substitution. There is an interesting item here concerning the word mountains in scripture. The word mountains can have two meanings. It can be either a mountain range, or a nation. This is the hardest part of this whole exercise, trying to figure out what mountains are describing. Teachers will have you believe it is a city with seven mountains. In actual fact, mountains here are referring to nations. This also pertains to the head wound. The wound was not a literal head wound at all, but was a nation that was wounded. The beast's head or nation was wounded and was healed. This is the Palestinian Authority after the beginning of the Oslo Accords. The land that Israel possessed was now being given back to the Palestinians and the beast's nation is being healed. Ok, so now I have seven nations and ten kings, Rev.13:1. Why do I have three more kings than nations? It seems I have a king for each nation, but three left over. In Daniel in says the beast subdued three kings. These three kings don't necessarily have to be from different countries. It seems so, but is not expressly mentioned. It is another parable. The three kings who were subdued by the beast were Israeli Prime Ministers. These three Prime Ministers all served during the seven years of the Oslo Accords and were voted out of office because of terror perpetrated during Yasser Arafat's rule. Now, I am down to seven nations. These seven nations will wage war. I can easily see seven nations that will wage war here very soon; Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iran and the Palestinian Authority or Iraq, and there opponent Israel. This is exactly the same beast that is presented in Rev.17:10, just in a slightly different appearance. There are seven kings, five are fallen. This means five kings were defeated in war. Israel is referred to the "one that is," and the one that came later is the Palestinian Authority. This is a description of Israel's war for Independence. Literally, this was the beast being born. The war in 1967 is the beast rising up out of the sea in Rev.13:1. It was the unresolved issues of this conflict that resulted in the Oslo Accords of 1993. This seven year peace treaty was confirmed by Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat.

Now, there is another beast in Rev.13:11. This beast has two horns or kings. This is a picture of the Palestinian Authority after the elections of January 2006. This is when Hamas ran in the elections and won a majority in parliament. Now the P.A. was a country with two kings. Abbas was the President and Ismail Haniyeh was the Prime Minister. Here is where the problem with money came about. Western Nations did not want to donate money to a known terrorist organization so looked for a way they could still fund Abbas's P.A., but not let any money get to Hamas. This is when the number 666 identified an individual. The temporary international mechanism was adopted on June 16, 2006. This program allowed Western Nations to donate funds directly to Abbas, while bypassing Hamas. If you were a member of Fatah, or on Abbas's payroll you got paid. This is how the people were allowed to buy and sell. They received salaries, whereas before the mechanism, they had no way of getting paid from the Government. Hamas did not receive salaries. Also, Hamas did not receive the mark of the beast. They boycotted the elections for President in Jan. 2005.
It is more obvious who is being talked about the closer you get to the end.

In conclusion, to my three beast definitions. Mahmoud Abbas fits all three definitions. He was a member of the P.A. when it was formed. He took over from Yasser Arafat after his death. He was one of the two kings of the second beast in Rev.13:11. Lastly, he is the one identified by the number 666, which could have been Arafat had he lived.

Now, concerning the the false prophet. The following four verses below all refer to the false prophet, Ismail Haniyeh.

Rev.13:11- and I beheld another beast coming up out of the Earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev.13:12- And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev.13:13- "And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the Earth in the sight of men".
Rev.13:15- And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast, should be killed.


Hamas exercised all the power of the first beast (Abbas's P.A.) because they were now an equal partner in the Government. Also, the leader of Hamas caused them to worship or honor the first beast because Hamas would not honor the first beast. The first beast was the PA without Hamas as a member. The image of the beast is what the Government of Mahmoud Abbas represented. Verse 12 does not mention the image yet, we are just informed that the false prophet caused them to worship the first beast. Verse 14 and 15 gives the details of how that worshipping or honor was to commence. An image was created of the first beast that he (the false prophet) caused to be honored. This image of the beast is three items; the recognition of Israel, the honoring of all prior Palestinian agreements, and a renunciation of terror.

The last question I think that needs addressed is how do you know the timing is right? Meaning, there have been so many translations, how do you know that this one is correct? This is a question I always get asked. The answer, in my mind, is sort of a mix between two different prophecies. The first is the seven day prophecy as recorded in Genesis. It is a similitude between this and the amount of recorded time that has already happened on Earth. In the book of Peter, God says one day to him is as a thousand years. If that idea is applied to the Genesis creation, everyday that God created something one thousand years passed. Finally, on the last day he rested from his work, and his rest was one thousand years or one of God's days. This was one full week or 7000 years. After God's rest he started his work again, and he created Adam. Starting with Adam, it was approximately 4000 years to the time of Christ. Also, we know that Christ was here roughly 2000 years ago. If God was to be consistent with his one week schedule, then we could expect his day of rest to fall somewhere after the year two thousand. 4000 plus 2000 is six days and on the seventh he rested for one thousand years. This is not an exact estimate, but it can put you in the right ballpark when searching for the correct timing of Revelation. This is the estimate. The next item is more exact. Daniel 9:27 says that he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Many in Hebrew is Rab. This was a covenant confirmed with Yitzhak Rabin. It was the beginning of land for peace, or the Oslo Accords. When you see this agreement happen you should be aware that this prophecy will last seven years. There is only one problem with this item. Prior to it happening, everyone thought that the end of the seventh year of the agreement God would return and begin his rest. Well, that did not happen. The reason was a logical misinterpretation. It just mentions that this agreement must occur along with the prophecies mentioned, not that they would all happen and end on the last day of the seventh year. This has thrown everyone watching off-course for a time. Although, this was not such a terrible mistake if the watcher could see the right answer and get his, or her perspective back. When you have these two items coinciding at the expected time, then you know Revelation can be interpreted with accuracy. The events should start happening, as they have, as I have recorded in this letter.

May God bless all who read this letter.

Michael
The fundamental problem with identifying Mahmoud Abbas, Hamas, or any present political figure as the Beast of Revelation 13 is not that the news headlines do not line up cleanly. The problem is far deeper than that. It goes to the very premise of the theological position. It is a dispensational issue.

Revelation does not belong to the present dispensation of grace.

From Genesis through the Gospels, Scripture unfolds Israel’s prophetic program. That program includes a coming tribulation, a covenant confirmed for one week as described in Daniel 9:27, the rise of the Beast, the false prophet, and the visible return of Christ to establish His kingdom on Earth. Revelation is the climax of that prophetic stream.

Paul, however, reveals something previously hidden. In Ephesians 3 he speaks of “the dispensation of the grace of God” and of a mystery “which in other ages was not made known.” That mystery is the Body of Christ, a new entity distinct from Israel, operating outside the prophetic timeline. During this present dispensation, Israel’s national prophetic program is in abeyance.

If Israel’s prophetic program is paused, then Revelation 13 cannot be unfolding.

To repeat, this is not based on a minor detail with your thesis, it is about the controlling framework. The Beast does not arise during the dispensation of grace. The covenant of Daniel 9 is not confirmed during the dispensation of grace. The seventieth week of Daniel does not begin during the dispensation of grace. Those events resume only after the present mystery program concludes.

Any attempt to map Revelation 13 onto modern Middle Eastern politics assumes that Israel’s prophetic clock is currently ticking. That assumption contradicts Paul’s explicit teaching about the present dispensation.

Further, Revelation describes global, covenantal, and supernatural conditions that have not occurred. The Beast exercises authority over all kindreds, tongues, and nations. The false prophet performs signs that compel worship of the Beast. The mark governs economic participation in a way that is universal within the Beast’s domain. These things are elements of a covenantal crisis tied directly to Israel’s restoration and the visible return of Christ, not localized political funding mechanisms or regional election procedures.

Most importantly, Revelation is not a symbolic overlay for modern politics, waiting for us to attach today’s leaders to its imagery. It is the conclusion of a prophetic program rooted in Israel’s covenants, temple, land, kingdom, and Messiah. Until that program resumes, its climactic judgments cannot be in progress and when it is fulfilled it will be in an unambiguous manner similar to how the rest of biblical prophesy has been fulfilled throughout Israel's biblical history.

For that reason alone, the identification of contemporary political leaders as the Beast or the false prophet must be rejected.
It is not merely unlikely. It is dispensationally impossible.
 
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ephraim

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Christian films often portray that all those who have not received the mark of the beast will be killed, this is a symbolic truth. The circumstances are true, but they missed the real meaning due to some failed interpretations. All those who have not taken the mark are killed, this part is true, but those who have not taken the mark are Hamas. The mark was given during the elections for the president of the Palestinian authority, which was boycotted by Hamas. Hamas has never received the mark. Films like to portray all people as subject to the mark. This part is wrong. It only affects those Palestinians who did not take the mark, and not the whole world. It is only Hamas. This makes the mark as what the letter indicates. It was the indelible ink brand given to those who voted in the Palestinian elections.
The following is an exchange of ideas on a popular forum. I thought that it was quite indicative of the state of the Christian mind today.

BH said:
"In no reality does Hamas represent those who have not taken the brand. They are murderers, liars, they kill babies, rape women and call it divine, they manipulate the media to make themselves look better than they are, and those who live in darkness believe in media manipulation. I am sorry to tell you this, but your mind is in darkness, and the light of the Lord Jesus is far from your perception.

My answer follows.
Christians are deceived by their own interpretations. They believe in them so firmly that when the true meaning is presented, it is completely rejected. The Lord said that He would do a work in our day, which, even if it were told, would not be believed. Your problem goes back a long way. It begins with one failed interpretation after another. What I find so astonishing about this topic is that no matter how many times I am right, Christians will always deny what I have presented. In your world, you are waiting for some kind of mark that will be implemented worldwide. I have discussed this in the letter. The first thing you need to know is who is being talked about. If you say "all people", then you will already be starting from a false premise. Then, you'll need to imagine a series of circumstances to match your conclusions. The most revealing of your interpretations is that you say nothing. You do not provide any details, and it is always coming soon. What bothers me the most is that you hide the real answers. It is a total shame that a person spends his whole life learning his beliefs, and when the time comes to apply the meanings, has no idea. The Lord said to watch. You have failed in this undertaking. You did something though, you interpreted. Now you are waiting for your ideas to come true, which will never happen.

This paragraph is not part of the original response.

It is easy to discern from B.H.'s commentary a certain set of beliefs. What he believes is that Hamas could not be the one that did not accept the mark because they are terrorists. Meaning that the mark will be implemented on a different group. A group that does not commit terrorist acts. Who is this group? If you've been following these teachers for years, the answer is clear. All those who have not accepted the mark are Christians. Christians will not accept the mark because they do not want to worship the beast, even under the penalty of not being able to buy or sell. This is the set of beliefs that B. H. holds as truth while he disputes me, that I should accept as true, which he does not even realize has been corrupted. False teachings that have been accepted by the majority have turned the true meaning of Revelation 13 into a polar opposite. Why would anyone consider what I have to say when such false teachings are so widely believed? I just wanted to emphasize this point because it's a blinder over the eyes of anyone interested in Bible prophecy. michae1
 

Clete

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The following is an exchange of ideas on a popular forum. I thought that it was quite indicative of the state of the Christian mind today.

BH said:
"In no reality does Hamas represent those who have not taken the brand. They are murderers, liars, they kill babies, rape women and call it divine, they manipulate the media to make themselves look better than they are, and those who live in darkness believe in media manipulation. I am sorry to tell you this, but your mind is in darkness, and the light of the Lord Jesus is far from your perception.

My answer follows.
Christians are deceived by their own interpretations. They believe in them so firmly that when the true meaning is presented, it is completely rejected. The Lord said that He would do a work in our day, which, even if it were told, would not be believed. Your problem goes back a long way. It begins with one failed interpretation after another. What I find so astonishing about this topic is that no matter how many times I am right, Christians will always deny what I have presented. In your world, you are waiting for some kind of mark that will be implemented worldwide. I have discussed this in the letter. The first thing you need to know is who is being talked about. If you say "all people", then you will already be starting from a false premise. Then, you'll need to imagine a series of circumstances to match your conclusions. The most revealing of your interpretations is that you say nothing. You do not provide any details, and it is always coming soon. What bothers me the most is that you hide the real answers. It is a total shame that a person spends his whole life learning his beliefs, and when the time comes to apply the meanings, has no idea. The Lord said to watch. You have failed in this undertaking. You did something though, you interpreted. Now you are waiting for your ideas to come true, which will never happen.

This paragraph is not part of the original response.

It is easy to discern from B.H.'s commentary a certain set of beliefs. What he believes is that Hamas could not be the one that did not accept the mark because they are terrorists. Meaning that the mark will be implemented on a different group. A group that does not commit terrorist acts. Who is this group? If you've been following these teachers for years, the answer is clear. All those who have not accepted the mark are Christians. Christians will not accept the mark because they do not want to worship the beast, even under the penalty of not being able to buy or sell. This is the set of beliefs that B. H. holds as truth while he disputes me, that I should accept as true, which he does not even realize has been corrupted. False teachings that have been accepted by the majority have turned the true meaning of Revelation 13 into a polar opposite. Why would anyone consider what I have to say when such false teachings are so widely believed? I just wanted to emphasize this point because it's a blinder over the eyes of anyone interested in Bible prophecy. michae1
@ephraim,

You repeatedly call your interpretation “the true meaning,” then offer the fact that Christians reject it as evidence that they are deceived. Where have you established that your interpretation is true? You showing up here to state your interpretation doesn't make it true and repeating it with increasing indignation adds nothing to the evidence.

Notice the neat little circle you have constructed. You know we are deceived because we reject your interpretation, and you know your interpretation is correct because deceived Christians reject it.

How would you ever discover that you were mistaken? What correction could possibly reach you when disagreement itself becomes confirmation that you are right? What prevents me from doing the same and proclaiming your interpretation false on the basis that it contradicts mine? How would you refute me without undermining yourself? How is it even possible for someone to ensnare their own mind into such a childishly obvious trap?

You even appeal to the Lord’s statement about people refusing to believe a work they were told about. What establishes that this describes our rejection of your claims? Anyone with a pet prophetic theory can quote that passage and announce that his critics are fulfilling it. Does that make all their contradictory interpretations true?

I posted an argument explaining why your identification fails. My post proves, at the very least, that I fully understand your position. I'd be willing to bet that you didn't even bother to read my post and/or that, if you did read it, you didn't understand it at all and telling us how blind we are does nothing to establish how clearly you see! If you don't get it, why not ask questions until you do? Is your position so weak, so totally without substance that all you've got is bald but emphatically stated claims?
 
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ephraim

New member
@ephraim,

You repeatedly call your interpretation “the true meaning,” then offer the fact that Christians reject it as evidence that they are deceived. Where have you established that your interpretation is true? You showing up here to state your interpretation doesn't make it true and repeating it with increasing indignation adds nothing to the evidence.

Notice the neat little circle you have constructed. You know we are deceived because we reject your interpretation, and you know your interpretation is correct because deceived Christians reject it.

How would you ever discover that you were mistaken? What correction could possibly reach you when disagreement itself becomes confirmation that you are right? What prevents me from doing the same and proclaiming your interpretation false on the basis that it contradicts mine? How would you refute me without undermining yourself? How is it even possible for someone to ensnare their own mind into such a childishly obvious trap?

You even appeal to the Lord’s statement about people refusing to believe a work they were told about. What establishes that this describes our rejection of your claims? Anyone with a pet prophetic theory can quote that passage and announce that his critics are fulfilling it. Does that make all their contradictory interpretations true?

I posted an argument explaining why your identification fails. My post proves, at the very least, that I fully understand your position. I'd be willing to bet that you didn't even bother to read my post and/or that, if you did read it, you didn't understand it at all and telling us how blind we are does nothing to establish how clearly you see! If you don't get it, why not ask questions until you do? Is your position so weak, so totally without substance that all you've got is bald but emphatically stated claims?

If I had listened to every contentious Christian in my life, I would never have written anything. This information needs to be heard, just as your opinion has been heard. I don't need any permission to state my views. I put my words here for all to read, Christians or non-Christian. You're not the first person to disagree with me, and you won't be the last. You are one of many. I am writing for the few.
 

Clete

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If I had listened to every contentious Christian in my life, I would never have written anything.
From what I've seen, that would have been a positive result!

This information needs to be heard, just as your opinion has been heard.
I have offered you no opinions.

I don't need any permission to state my views.
No one has suggested otherwise, nor do I need permission to crush your views into powder.

I put my words here for all to read, Christians or non-Christian.
And I read them. They're incoherent nonsense as I have not merely asserted but demonstrated.

You're not the first person to disagree with me, and you won't be the last. You are one of many. I am writing for the few.
Anyone can state their beliefs. Why should anyone take anything you say seriously?

You couldn't establish your "views" as true if your life depended on it, and you don't care to even try precisely because you know that you cannot. You know that your beliefs have no foundation in anything other than pure, blind belief and that they're no more valid that any child's belief in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. More complex, perhaps, but not on whit more valid.
 
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ephraim

New member
From what I've seen, that would have been a positive result!


I have offered you no opinions.


No one has suggested otherwise, nor do I need permission to crush your views into powder.


And I read them. They're incoherent nonsense as I have not merely asserted but demonstrated.


Anyone can state their beliefs. Why should anyone take anything you say seriously?

You couldn't establish your "views" as true if your life depended on it, and you don't care to even try precisely because you know that you cannot. You know that your beliefs have no foundation in anything other than pure, blind belief and that they're no more valid that any child's belief in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. More complex, perhaps, but not on whit more valid.

Your tantrums are very amusing.
 

Done

New member
I agree that the devil is not cast out of Heaven until the time of the end.

(Genesis 6:1-2) The “sons” of God came to the Earth, but this passage doesn’t mention Satan.

(Genesis 3:1-5) God told Adam and Eve that if they ate the forbidden fruit they would die, but Satan said they would not surely die. It isn’t clear if Satan was questioning what God said, or if he was questioning what Eve said that God said. The devil did not lie. Part of what the devil said is confirmed in Genesis 3:22.

(Job 41:1-4) Satan (referred to as a dragon) is not in open rebellion but speaking softly and seeking a covenant with God. The devil secretly hates God, and he knows that will be his undoing unless he can get a covenant with God.

(Luke 10:17-18) Jesus stated that He saw Satan fall from Heaven. He said this in response to disciples casting out demons. Jesus is talking about the ultimate exorcism, but He doesn’t say it occurred in the past. This could have been a vision of a future event.

(John 12:27-31) It had to be a future event since Jesus would later say that the prince of this world “shall be” cast out.

(John 8:44) Jesus said the devil was a murderer and a liar. Jesus did not say the devil was exposed as a murderer and a liar. The devil cannot openly sin. The devil cannot battle God. That would be like a character in a novel doing battle with the author. Satan hates God, but all he can do to God is to destroy the humans to grieve God. The devil denies his hatred of God which means he is a liar and a murderer.

When is Satan cast out of Heaven?

(Isaiah 27:1) In a passage where God slays a dragon, the context suggests that this takes place at the time of the end. This connection is made clear in the last few verses of Isaiah 26.

(Revelation 12:7-12) Satan is clearly cast out of Heaven at the time of the end.

There are two passages in the Bible that indicate Satan is cast out in the end times. There is no passage to clearly indicate Satan being cast out at any other time.
 

JudgeRightly

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I agree that the devil is not cast out of Heaven until the time of the end.

(Genesis 6:1-2) The “sons” of God came to the Earth, but this passage doesn’t mention Satan.

(Genesis 3:1-5) God told Adam and Eve that if they ate the forbidden fruit they would die, but Satan said they would not surely die. It isn’t clear if Satan was questioning what God said, or if he was questioning what Eve said that God said. The devil did not lie. Part of what the devil said is confirmed in Genesis 3:22.

(Job 41:1-4) Satan (referred to as a dragon) is not in open rebellion but speaking softly and seeking a covenant with God. The devil secretly hates God, and he knows that will be his undoing unless he can get a covenant with God.

(Luke 10:17-18) Jesus stated that He saw Satan fall from Heaven. He said this in response to disciples casting out demons. Jesus is talking about the ultimate exorcism, but He doesn’t say it occurred in the past. This could have been a vision of a future event.

(John 12:27-31) It had to be a future event since Jesus would later say that the prince of this world “shall be” cast out.

(John 8:44) Jesus said the devil was a murderer and a liar. Jesus did not say the devil was exposed as a murderer and a liar. The devil cannot openly sin. The devil cannot battle God. That would be like a character in a novel doing battle with the author. Satan hates God, but all he can do to God is to destroy the humans to grieve God. The devil denies his hatred of God which means he is a liar and a murderer.

When is Satan cast out of Heaven?

(Isaiah 27:1) In a passage where God slays a dragon, the context suggests that this takes place at the time of the end. This connection is made clear in the last few verses of Isaiah 26.

(Revelation 12:7-12) Satan is clearly cast out of Heaven at the time of the end.

There are two passages in the Bible that indicate Satan is cast out in the end times. There is no passage to clearly indicate Satan being cast out at any other time.

Try Ezekiel.
 

Done

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(Ezekiel 28:14-15) Satan was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him. This means the devil was not in open rebellion. At some point, his hatred of God was or will be exposed.


ESV (Ezekiel 28:16) "In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

<Past tense>

KJV (Ezekiel 28:16) "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

<Future tense>
 

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(Genesis 6:1-2) The “sons” of God came to the Earth, but this passage doesn’t mention Satan.
Specifically, where does that verse say that "the sons of God came to earth"?

Gen 6:2 (AKJV/PCE)​
(6:2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.​
 

Done

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Specifically, where does that verse say that "the sons of God came to earth"?

Gen 6:2 (AKJV/PCE)​
(6:2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.​

The point is that the passage doesn't mention Satan.
 

Clete

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I agree that the devil is not cast out of Heaven until the time of the end.

(Genesis 6:1-2) The “sons” of God came to the Earth, but this passage doesn’t mention Satan.

(Genesis 3:1-5) God told Adam and Eve that if they ate the forbidden fruit they would die, but Satan said they would not surely die. It isn’t clear if Satan was questioning what God said, or if he was questioning what Eve said that God said. The devil did not lie. Part of what the devil said is confirmed in Genesis 3:22.

(Job 41:1-4) Satan (referred to as a dragon) is not in open rebellion but speaking softly and seeking a covenant with God. The devil secretly hates God, and he knows that will be his undoing unless he can get a covenant with God.

(Luke 10:17-18) Jesus stated that He saw Satan fall from Heaven. He said this in response to disciples casting out demons. Jesus is talking about the ultimate exorcism, but He doesn’t say it occurred in the past. This could have been a vision of a future event.

(John 12:27-31) It had to be a future event since Jesus would later say that the prince of this world “shall be” cast out.

(John 8:44) Jesus said the devil was a murderer and a liar. Jesus did not say the devil was exposed as a murderer and a liar. The devil cannot openly sin. The devil cannot battle God. That would be like a character in a novel doing battle with the author. Satan hates God, but all he can do to God is to destroy the humans to grieve God. The devil denies his hatred of God which means he is a liar and a murderer.

When is Satan cast out of Heaven?

(Isaiah 27:1) In a passage where God slays a dragon, the context suggests that this takes place at the time of the end. This connection is made clear in the last few verses of Isaiah 26.

(Revelation 12:7-12) Satan is clearly cast out of Heaven at the time of the end.

There are two passages in the Bible that indicate Satan is cast out in the end times. There is no passage to clearly indicate Satan being cast out at any other time.
@Done,

I agree with your central point that Satan's expulsion from heaven occurs during the events described in Revelation 12. The passage is quite explicit about it, and Revelation 12:10 identifies Satan as the accuser of the brethren, who had been accusing them before God day and night. This is consistent with the accounts in Job and Zechariah, where Satan clearly still has access to heaven.

That said, I think you've made several claims that are either unsupported by Scripture or are simply incorrect. None of them are necessary to establish your central point.

First, your assertion that the devil did not lie in Genesis 3 is plainly false. God told Adam that eating from the forbidden tree would result in death. Satan directly contradicted God by saying, "You will not surely die" (Genesis 3:4). The fact that Adam and Eve subsequently acquired knowledge of good and evil, as Satan also predicted, doesn't make his denial of the consequences truthful. Satan mixed truth with falsehood, which is precisely what makes deception effective. Jesus explicitly identified Satan as a liar and the father of lies in John 8:44.

Second, I don't see any biblical justification for your interpretation of Job 41. The passage describes Leviathan, and while there may be some symbolic connection between Leviathan and Satan, the passage never explicitly identifies the two as being the same. More importantly, the questions about Leviathan entering into a covenant are rhetorical questions intended to demonstrate man's inability to control the creature. Where does the text suggest that Satan is secretly attempting to negotiate a covenant with God? You've constructed an entire theological scenario out of something the passage never actually says.

Third, you claim that Satan cannot openly sin against God. Why not? Where does Scripture teach such a thing?

In Job 1–2, Satan openly challenges God's assessment of Job and accuses Job of serving God only because God has blessed him. In Zechariah 3:1–2, Satan stands in opposition to Joshua and is explicitly rebuked by the LORD. These are hardly the actions of someone whose opposition to God must remain concealed.

Your analogy about a character in a novel being unable to battle the author is particularly problematic. It assumes a relationship between God and His creatures that effectively eliminates genuine free will. God is certainly sovereign over His creation, but that doesn't mean His creatures are merely characters acting out a story He has already written. God created beings capable of making real choices, including choices contrary to His will. The very existence of sin demonstrates this. Satan doesn't have to be capable of defeating God in order to rebel against Him. Rebellion is a matter of the will, not a measure of one's ability to overpower the authority against which he rebels.

Indeed, if Satan cannot actually oppose God's will, then in what meaningful sense is he a rebel at all? Are we to understand that Satan's rebellion, his deception of Eve, his accusations against Job and his efforts to destroy mankind are all simply parts of a story that God Himself has authored? That would make God the ultimate author of the very evil He condemns.

As for Luke 10:18, I agree that Jesus' statement about seeing Satan fall like lightning from heaven doesn't necessarily establish that Satan had already been permanently expelled. It could be a prophetic vision of a future event, although that interpretation needs to be established rather than merely asserted.

Likewise, John 12:31 speaks of the ruler of this world being cast out, but the immediate context concerns Christ's approaching crucifixion. There is no reason to simply assume that this refers to precisely the same event described in Revelation 12. Christ's victory over Satan at the cross and Satan's eventual physical expulsion from heaven are distinguishable events, even if they are related.

The important distinction here is between Satan's original rebellion against God and his eventual expulsion from heaven. There is no logical or biblical necessity for those events to have occurred simultaneously.

Satan could have rebelled against God long before Genesis 3 while retaining access to heaven until the events described in Revelation 12. God permitting Satan to enter heaven doesn't imply that God approves of him, is unaware of his rebellion or has somehow been deceived about his intentions. The book of Job makes that abundantly clear. God knows exactly who Satan is and what he is doing, yet permits him to act within limits that God Himself establishes.

This brings me to what I think is the fundamental problem with your argument.

Why do you believe that Satan's continued access to heaven requires that his rebellion against God remain secret?

God has never needed to be ignorant of someone's rebellion in order to permit that rebellion to continue. Indeed, much of the biblical record consists of God patiently permitting wicked men and rebellious nations to continue in their wickedness, sometimes for centuries, before bringing judgment upon them. His patience is a matter of deliberate choice, not ignorance or inability.

The same principle can apply to Satan.

I see no reason to dispute your conclusion that Revelation 12 describes Satan's final expulsion from heaven. What I dispute is the elaborate theory you've constructed around it, particularly the suggestion that Satan cannot openly rebel against God, that his hatred must remain concealed and that he is somehow attempting to secure a covenant with God to protect himself from the consequences of his rebellion.

None of those claims are established by the passages you've cited, and none are necessary to defend your central argument.
 

JudgeRightly

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(Ezekiel 28:14-15) Satan was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him. This means the devil was not in open rebellion. At some point, his hatred of God was or will be exposed.


ESV (Ezekiel 28:16) "In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

<Past tense>

KJV (Ezekiel 28:16) "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

<Future tense>

Try reading beyond one or two verses, and not just after them.

Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:“You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. “You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever. ” ’ ”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel 28:11-19&version=NKJV
 

JudgeRightly

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Satan could have rebelled against God long before Genesis 3 while retaining access to heaven until the events described in Revelation 12.

The only thing I have issue with is "long before Genesis 3," and I'm guessing it was just a typo on your part...
 

Done

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God transcends time. God foreknew that Adam and Eve would die. Satan does not transcend time. Satan cannot bear false witness of the future since Satan cannot see the future. It may be stupid to doubt God, but it is not a falsehood.

There is no leviathan. It is a fictional creature that is used to represent the devil. The Bible will sometimes use dragon, serpent, and leviathan to represent the devil. You don't have to believe this interpretation, but it makes more sense that God would be dealing with Satan than God dealing with a giant lizard.

When I say that Satan cannot lie, I mean that the devil would be stupid to open sin and transgress against the Law. A battle between God and the devil would be zero against infinity.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Psalm 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

There are demons in Heaven. If they openly sin, they are cast out. Why would they not be cast out? Should God allow demons to sin repeatedly and indefinitely? If they don’t sin, they are not cast out. Satan refrains from sinning, but he openly cursed God when Jesus was on the cross.

God had looked away, and the devil didn't know that Jesus is LORD.

Humans have free will, angels and demons have free agency. Human or demon, if you violate the Law, you will answer to God. The inhabitants of Heaven are more aware of this. For this reason, the devil tries his best to stay within the Law. Satan destroys the humans to grieve God because that is all he can do to God.
 

Done

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Try reading beyond one or two verses, and not just after them.

Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:“You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. “You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever. ” ’ ”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel 28:11-19&version=NKJV

This is Orthodox Jewish Bible version of Ezekiel 28:16

By the multitude of thy trading they have filled the midst of thee with chamas, and thou hast sinned; therefore I will banish thee as profane out of the Har Elohim; and I will destroy thee, O guardian keruv, from the midst of the stones of eish.
 
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