Thanks Bob

[PKevman]

If his weapons came from us, then we knew very well all along that he never had nukes. Yet we were lied into believing that he did.

When did Bush say Saddam had NUKES? The guy is wrong on a lot of stuff, but he never said that. Would you like to revise your statement to WMD's?

 

[sopwith21]

You obviously have no clue how oppressive the Chinese government really is.

The Chinese government is far more tolerant today than it has been in hundreds of years. Today, you can start up your own family business with no Chinese health department certification, no business licensing from the Chinese government and none of the endless regulation, harassment and snooping that US agencies thrive upon. You are free to criticize the Chinese government so long as you do not do it on a public airwave - that is a freedom they still do not have. Their remnibi (the Chinese monetary unit) is thriving, the average Chinese now owns a car and has a cell phone, and they enjoy more liberty than they have in centuries.

Overall, the Chinese people are still oppressed, but not nearly to the extent that US propaganda claims.

you take your freedom for granted.

Freedom is the ability to act without permission. In this country, we do not have that ability. We must get permission to drive, to fly, to get on a train, to carry a gun, to shoot a deer, to start a business, to shut down a business, to get a job, to get a bank account or to buy a home... we must submit to searches and eavesdropping in order to travel, talk on the phone or write a letter or send an email.

There is precious little freedom left in this country to take for granted.

On its worse day, the USA is still the best country in the world to live in,

Actually, Switzerland is the most free nation on earth today with a higher standard of living than our own, followed by several small nations in central America. The US is still in the top five but we slip further every day.

 

[PKevman]

The Chinese government is far more tolerant today than it has been in hundreds of years

Great do you think you would be happier there? If so why aren't you moving there?

 

[PKevman]

Overall, the Chinese people are still oppressed, but not nearly to the extent that US propaganda claims.

US propaganda? Man you are sounding more and more like a communist Stephen.

Do you believe communism is a good form of government?

 

[PKevman]

Freedom is the ability to act without permission. In this country, we do not have that ability. We must get permission to drive, to fly, to get on a train, to carry a gun, to shoot a deer, to start a business, to shut down a business, to get a job, to get a bank account or to buy a home... we must submit to searches and eavesdropping in order to travel, talk on the phone or write a letter or send an email.

There is precious little freedom left in this country to take for granted.

Thank you for finally exposing the heart of the matter after all these pages. Now its out there, and yet Stephen Dale got upset with me when I clearly stated these were your views.

 

[sopwith21]

When did Bush say Saddam had NUKES? The guy is wrong on a lot of stuff, but he never said that. Would you like to revise your statement to WMD's?

No.

"They'll probably will have a nuclear weapon during this decade." - Vice President Dick Cheaney to the American Enterprise Institute, 2002

"We believe [Hussein] has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." - VP Cheaney the Sunday before the war began

“We said they had a nuclear program. That was never any debate.” - Sec of Defense Donald Rumsfeld

“Evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group of his ‘nuclear mujahedeen,’ his nuclear holy warriors.” - G W Bush, October 2002

You should be embarrassed that I have to tell you this stuff. You should be educating yourself on these issues. Get to work. I am not a secretary or a news service.

 

[sopwith21]

Great do you think you would be happier there?

No. The US still has a few more freedoms than China, though the gap is more narrow by the day.

If so why aren't you moving there?

As of January 17, 2006, you and I were no longer free to leave the USA. Before moving to China (or anywhere else) your federal profile is examined by the Transportation Safety Administration and the Dept. of Homeland Security. Without their permission you won't get to the bathroom. So moving is not necessarily the choice of the citizen.

Take the rose colored glasses off and find out what's happening in your country.

 

[sopwith21]

You continue to make all of these claims but refuse to divulge where you get the information.

I am not your secretary and I am not going to facilitate your unwillingness to dig, work, research and find out what's going on in the world around you. If you want to learn something, get to work and go find it out for yourself.

 

[PKevman]

Freedom is the ability to act without permission.

Did you get permission to type that?

In this country, we do not have that ability.

I do pretty much what I want to as long as I don't break the law. My family goes where we want to go, we worship in church openly praising our Lord and Savior. Not sure where on earth you get the idea you have no freedom to act without permission. It certainly has no basis in reality. Only in paranoia.

We must get permission to drive,

I get in my car and drive every day without asking permission.

to fly,

You buy a ticket you get on a plane. The only permission comes from your pocketbook.

to get on a train,

See the plane.

to carry a gun,

I support the right to bear arms. Should a convicted murderer on parole be allowed to go right out and purchase a sub machine gun?

to shoot a deer,

I have known plenty of hunters who like to hunt deer and go out on hunting trips. I personally never saw the enjoyment in it, but I certainly don't begrudge those who do. Never heard them say, "Wait, we gotta get permission before we can go".

to start a business,

Practically anyone can start a business. I know. I started a non-profit ministry last winter, and the steps I took were incredibly easy. I filled out the exact same forms and information that a business owner of a for-profit business fills out with but a few minor exceptions. Never once did I have to ask anyone's permission.

to shut down a business,

The owner of a business can shut that business down if he so chooses. He certainly doesn't have to ask permission.

to get a job,

:rotfl: This one you might have a point. You have to get the permission of your perspective employer before he will hire you.

to get a bank account

I have a bank account and didn't have to get permission to start it. We started a bank account for the church last year, and we didn't have to get permission to start it.

or to buy a home...

When I bought my home I didn't have to get anyone's permission. Well that's not entirely true. I had to get the permission of the people selling me their home before I could move in. :chuckle:

we must submit to searches and eavesdropping in order to travel,

Thank the terrorists for that one. They did crash planes into our buildings as you know. But I guess you lay that at the government's feet as well since you believe our government was involved and that you have video evidence of that fact. (which was debunked by the way, but you didn't care at the time)

talk on the phone

What do you mean? That you have to get permission to talk on the phone or that people eavesdrop on your phone conversations. How many people do you think WORK for the government man? It would have to be literally MORE people than are alive in America to monitor all of the things you think they are monitoring.

or write a letter or send an email.

Again how many people do you think work for the government? Do you REALIZE how many letters and emails are sent in this country every day, every hour, every minute?

There is precious little freedom left in this country to take for granted.

With worldviews like the ones you listed above, I can understand exactly why you feel that way. I only pray that you will someday come back to rationality on this topic.

 

[PKevman]

I am not your secretary and I am not going to facilitate your unwillingness to dig, work, research and find out what's going on in the world around you. If you want to learn something, get to work and go find it out for yourself.

I've done the work. The answers for what is wrong with the world are found in God's Word above everything else.

 

[Lighthouse]

Did you get permission to type that?



I do pretty much what I want to as long as I don't break the law. My family goes where we want to go, we worship in church openly praising our Lord and Savior. Not sure where on earth you get the idea you have no freedom to act without permission. It certainly has no basis in reality. Only in paranoia.



I get in my car and drive every day without asking permission.



You buy a ticket you get on a plane. The only permission comes from your pocketbook.



See the plane.



I support the right to bear arms. Should a convicted murderer on parole be allowed to go right out and purchase a sub machine gun?



I have known plenty of hunters who like to hunt deer and go out on hunting trips. I personally never saw the enjoyment in it, but I certainly don't begrudge those who do. Never heard them say, "Wait, we gotta get permission before we can go".



Practically anyone can start a business. I know. I started a non-profit ministry last winter, and the steps I took were incredibly easy. I filled out the exact same forms and information that a business owner of a for-profit business fills out with but a few minor exceptions. Never once did I have to ask anyone's permission.



The owner of a business can shut that business down if he so chooses. He certainly doesn't have to ask permission.



:rotfl: This one you might have a point. You have to get the permission of your perspective employer before he will hire you.



I have a bank account and didn't have to get permission to start it. We started a bank account for the church last year, and we didn't have to get permission to start it.



When I bought my home I didn't have to get anyone's permission. Well that's not entirely true. I had to get the permission of the people selling me their home before I could move in. :chuckle:



Thank the terrorists for that one. They did crash planes into our buildings as you know. But I guess you lay that at the government's feet as well since you believe our government was involved and that you have video evidence of that fact. (which was debunked by the way, but you didn't care at the time)



What do you mean? That you have to get permission to talk on the phone or that people eavesdrop on your phone conversations. How many people do you think WORK for the government man? It would have to be literally MORE people than are alive in America to monitor all of the things you think they are monitoring.



Again how many people do you think work for the government? Do you REALIZE how many letters and emails are sent in this country every day, every hour, every minute?



With worldviews like the ones you listed above, I can understand exactly why you feel that way. I only pray that you will someday come back to rationality on this topic.

I certainly do not agree with sopwith21, but you do need a government issued license, or Identification for some of those things.

 

[PKevman]

Are you saying you support our current system?

No I'm saying the world has changed and people have changed. By the people is not so scary when most of the people are committed to living out their faith in God. Not the case today.

You have no more proof to back up your statement against Ron Paul than you do Alan Keys. And again, do you support our current political system?

Ask it twice, get a different answer? No I don't support our current system at all. Anyone who knows me (including you) knows that. You already knew the answer to that question.

And if that is our attitude we always will be.

Not if we get every Christian to double down his efforts in reaching those around them for Jesus Christ. Unfortunately they are too caught up in other matters to even pick up God's Word and get to know what He says on a deep and intimate level.

Alan Keys is running with the Republican party.

Even a broken wristwatch is sometimes right.

They have already been given a chance since the end of the Civil war when the Federal branch took total control.

There has not been a president anything like Keyes in the modern era. Maybe ever.

His strategy will work for his term(s) only and then we will have this same problem when he leaves.

No we would be much better off than we are now, and the liberals and democommies would have a lot of work on their hands to reverse it all.

Ron Paul however, presents a Constitutional strategy that will not be changed for many terms afterwards.

We already talked Constitution and my points on it were utterly glossed over and the subject was changed quickly.

 

[PKevman]

I certainly do not agree with sopwith21, but you do need a government issued license, or Identification for some of those things.

And each of those is a separate issue that has to be examined for why those regulations exist. Not all of them are bad. It's only when you tie in this whole "they control everything we do and you cannot do anything without permission" worldview that you can make these kinds of claims.

 

[PKevman]

I support the right to bear arms. Should a convicted murderer on parole be allowed to go right out and purchase a sub machine gun?

 

[PKevman]

Some things by common sense require restriction.

Deer for example. I'm not much of a hunter, but isn't it correct that if people were allowed to hunt deer all year long like they do during deer season that we wouldn't have any deer left and then there would be no deer hunting whatsoever? The Indians certainly understood this idea of not endlessly slaughtering every single last one of the animals they depended on and allowing them to replenish.

 

[PKevman]

Is getting a government issued license or identification "getting permission"?

 

[drbrumley]

Is getting a government issued license or identification "getting permission"?

Um, pretty much. Not that some licenses are bad.

 

[PKevman]

Um, pretty much. Not that some licenses are bad.

After you get the license (let's say the driver's license). Do you have to get "permission" to drive every day? I don't.

I never looked at getting a driver's license as getting "permission" to drive. I think the restrictions on that are more for the protection of people on the road. It's a pretty easy thing to get and keep a driver's license. Someone who constantly drives drunk and puts people lives in danger should not have a driver's license. Small children who are too young to drive should not have a driver's license.

This isn't "Getting permission" to drive. It's common sense applied.

 

[drbrumley]

One overriding point has been forgotten: Criminals don't obey laws! As with gun control, national ID cards or any other license will only affect law-abiding citizens. Do we really believe a terrorist bent on murder is going to dutifully obtain a federal ID card or any other license ? Do we believe that people who openly flout our immigration laws will nonetheless respect our ID requirements or any other license ? Any ID card or any other license can be forged; any federal agency or state DMV is susceptible to corruption. Criminals can and will obtain national ID cards, or operate without them. National ID cards will be used to track the law-abiding masses, not criminals.

Yeah, that sounds about right! :nono:

 

[PKevman]

One overriding point has been forgotten: Criminals don't obey laws! As with gun control, national ID cards or any other license will only affect law-abiding citizens. Do we really believe a terrorist bent on murder is going to dutifully obtain a federal ID card or any other license ? Do we believe that people who openly flout our immigration laws will nonetheless respect our ID requirements or any other license ? Any ID card or any other license can be forged; any federal agency or state DMV is susceptible to corruption. Criminals can and will obtain national ID cards, or operate without them. National ID cards will be used to track the law-abiding masses, not criminals.

Yeah, that sounds about right! :nono:

That's all true, but a society has to have rules and laws or it will utterly fall apart even more rapidly than ours is.

See the Dispensation of Conscience for a perfect example of this. :think: