Stop ! Don't shoot !

deborah

New member
Jesus said he saw Satan fall. There are two possibilities, either he did or he didn't.

Pick one and that is your answer.

This can be as easy or difficult as I make it . I just reached for my bible and read the verses mentioned and was formulating my reply when I remembered that I don't (or can't at the moment ) trust the bible as the very word of God , for all the reasons I stated above.
I know that's a big thing to say and almost heresy to someone like yourself but I can't help the way I feel .


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Jacob

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Wow that's a lot of commandments. I'm afraid I will sound ignorant if I even try and comment about covenants of the Old Testament and the house of Israel and what that means for the future . It is not something I have studied in any detail , but would enjoy learning .
As for the words in red , I can't honestly have 100% faith that these are the words of Jesus . Of course the original scriptures would not have changed in colour to support his words even they were written many years after Jesus . So how logically can new translations claim they were the very words of Jesus .


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Shalom.

There are covenants spoken of in the Torah. One of them is the covenant that God made with Israel at Mount Sinai through the prophet Moses. Have you heard of the Ten Commandments? The Torah, or the Law, was given to the nation of Israel.

It is important to know when you are reading Jesus' words whether they are in red or not.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

deborah

New member
Shalom.

There are covenants spoken of in the Torah. One of them is the covenant that God made with Israel at Mount Sinai through the prophet Moses. Have you heard of the Ten Commandments? The Torah, or the Law, was given to the nation of Israel.

It is important to know when you are reading Jesus' words whether they are in red or not.

Shalom.

Jacob

Ok , so you guys are against the argument that the law has been done away with and we live under grace ? Or are those only for Jewish people ? How does salvation work for you ? If at all ? Sorry for all the questions hope I do t sound too dense .
I agree if we could know for certain what words Jesus directly spoke it would be wonderful . However I think it's not only a long shot but misleading and dangerous to claim that we do .


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Jacob

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Ok , so you guys are against the argument that the law has been done away with and we live under grace ? Or are those only for Jewish people ? How does salvation work for you ? If at all ? Sorry for all the questions hope I do t sound too dense .
I agree if we could know for certain what words Jesus directly spoke it would be wonderful . However I think it's not only a long shot but misleading and dangerous to claim that we do .


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Shalom.

I encourage you to read Matthew 5:17-20. These are Jesus' words.

If you are a believer saved by the blood of Jesus, and you have eternal life, then you are not under Law but under grace. See Romans 6:14-15.

It is important to obey God's commandments. Obey God's commands.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

Danoh

New member
Jesus said he saw Satan fall. There are two possibilities, either he did or he didn't.

Pick one and that is your answer.

Or He was referring to a yet future event, 2 Cor. 2:11; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 6:11-12, etc., in contrast to Rev. 12.

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Thing is...

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
 

Danoh

New member
Ok , so you guys are against the argument that the law has been done away with and we live under grace ? Or are those only for Jewish people ? How does salvation work for you ? If at all ? Sorry for all the questions hope I do t sound too dense .
I agree if we could know for certain what words Jesus directly spoke it would be wonderful . However I think it's not only a long shot but misleading and dangerous to claim that we do .


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What had been one intent of the Law prior to the Cross of Christ; 1 Cor. 15:1-4?

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Note the But Now...

3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

By the way, verse 31 points back to what verses 19- 20 assert the Law had also proved.
 

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
This can be as easy or difficult as I make it . I just reached for my bible and read the verses mentioned and was formulating my reply when I remembered that I don't (or can't at the moment ) trust the bible as the very word of God , for all the reasons I stated above.

Prophecy is the proof of the Bible. How well do you know prophecy?
 

7Spirits

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I apologised for any offence caused and I think it's is different . Saying I observe hostility on here is a lot different than calling out an individual for their differences and even worse using name calling . Doesnt Jesus warn calling people a fool gets you a one way ticket to hell ?


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No. He says it puts a person in danger of the Lake of Fire. I can see that you are searching but what are you searching for?

When you look to people to represent God, you will be disappointed every time. There's only one certain thing and that is Jesus. There is no tight rope for the human being to walk. Only God With Us could walk that tight rope.

If you are searching, I pray you find. If you are angry at the religious, organized institution, I pray find peace and forgiveness for it.

What does it mean to you that Jesus is your Savior?
 

Danoh

New member
No. He says it puts a person in danger of the Lake of Fire. I can see that you are searching but what are you searching for?

When you look to people to represent God, you will be disappointed every time. There's only one certain thing and that is Jesus. There is no tight rope for the human being to walk. Only God With Us could walk that tight rope.

If you are searching, I pray you find. If you are angry at the religious, organized institution, I pray find peace and forgiveness for it.

What does it mean to you that Jesus is your Savior?

Christians ever represent an interesting perplexity...

On the one hand, one is a Christian because he or she acknowledged one can only come short of the glory of God in one's own strength.

On the other, because that is true, Christians cannot but often prove it true: in how ugly we can be towards one another.

Solution?

One's decided focus during such temptations and or encounters with such in others.

The following...decided...focus - on how that...

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Why is that decided...focus...even possible?

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

7Spirits

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And fortunately God is with us.

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." (Philippians 4;13-14)

Alright cute puppy, I see your point, but that all things isn't the same as His all things. God With Us in the flesh is different than God With Us in our flesh.

Walked on water lately? Do you have cute puppy galoshes for that? Lived a sinless life and managed to treat everyone according to perfect judgment and self control?

I agree with Philippians 4:13 in every way it applies to us forgiven sinners, but I still say that we have no right rooe to walk. There's no need to try to steal His show, right? We don't fill the shoes of Immanuel, He fills us and retired those All Star Sandals. Can we agree with that?
 

Angel4Truth

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The Baptist in me (and the answer closer to what you want to hear) says you have to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour , that he died on the cross to save me from my sins , that he rose again 3 days later and is now at the right hand of his father preparing a place for me . I was also part of the osas crew .


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Do you still believe that?

I think that is the very struggle I'm going through . Of course I believe Jesus is the son of God . That he was persecuted for his "out there teachings" suffered and died and that he overcame death and is with his father .
The bit I have trouble with is the jumping through hoops to earn something I believe God (being loving and compassionate, and not to sound arrogant) wants to give to us all freely .
Of the course the believing in Jesus part is easy , its the being saved bit , saves from what ? I do not believe in hell fire , I do not believe that going to church every week , or wearing certain clothes or daily bible reading will make me a better Christian .


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you contradicted yourself, and clearly do not know what once saved always saved means if you also believe you work for salvation, the 2 positions are polar opposites. Baptists also do not believe wearing certain clothes saves you.

So come clean, what are you really after, spit it out.

You clearly do not believe what the bible says. What criteria do you use, to be a "christian" as you pick from the cafeteria plate?

what criteria do you use to determine some of the things in the word are true but others not, other than your tender "feelings" about it?

Why are some scripture teachings something you believe you should follow but discard the rest?

Do you want to be as god the same as the father of lies?

Romans 10:9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

As to hell, Jesus talked more about it than heaven.

Seems you reject why He came. Means you reject Him.
 

deborah

New member
you contradicted yourself, and clearly do not know what once saved always saved means if you also believe you work for salvation, the 2 positions are polar opposites. Baptists also do not believe wearing certain clothes saves you.

So come clean, what are you really after, spit it out.

You clearly do not believe what the bible says. What criteria do you use, to be a "christian" as you pick from the cafeteria plate?

what criteria do you use to determine some of the things in the word are true but others not, other than your tender "feelings" about it?

Why are some scripture teachings something you believe you should follow but discard the rest?

Do you want to be as god the same as the father of lies?

Romans 10:9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

As to hell, Jesus talked more about it than heaven.

Seems you reject why He came. Means you reject Him.

First let me set straight a few things I know what once saved always saved means , I thought we all did in my church after all the pastor preached it enough . However as one of my many reasons for leaving is that that didn't walk the talk . For my church h and the majority of christians in it , it WAS about how I dressed on a Sunday morning , it was making sure if the pastor popped round for a cup of tea making sure no secular books , music , alcohol etc were on display . It was fine for them when I was there every single worship and bible study arriving first and leaving last but whenever real problems in my life happened they dumped me , brushed it under the carpet because of course I had to be in some kind of sin for things to be going wrong for me .
The first church home we had was for 25 years , I thought they were our family, saw us get married have our first 3 children . However when we left (to a sister church closer to home ) not one member kept in touch . The sister church we moved to happened to pastored by my father in law , but once our great differences in doctrine were discovered we decided it best not to members of that church , that was 3 years ago and my in laws haven't spoken to us since . Just for believing different . Now maybe my cases are the extreme , maybe you think I'm still hurt and bitter . I'm not , I know that no one is perfect and can't rely on man or church or arguing of which bit of the bible is going to "save me" .
My apologies for keep answering some comments with scripture and then denying it's the very word of God in others . I must sound very hypocritical and like I'm cherry picking but it's very hard to unlearn what you have been taught for 20odd years .
I feel free right now but that negative way of thinking just plagues me every now and then . I feel guilt sometimes that I'm still in bed on a SUNDAY morning or that song I just listened to had swear words in etc etc .
Regarding hell as mentioned I did my praying , studying and soul searching on that many years ago for me it is settled and I have peace about it and unless you really want to hear my thoughts on the issue I'm happy to leave your comment right there . But just to say your very comment about hell being mentioned more times than heaven was said more than once by my old pastor , so I decided to take him to task on that . He was wrong and without wanting to offend so are you . Now weather you have been taught it too and blindly follow or weather you are trying to deceive I do not know , but little tricks like that the church uses to keep us in line .


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jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
I know what once saved always saved means

So did Paul, "If, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected, but I press on"

If we don't press on then we fall short and miss the mark.
 

Danoh

New member
So did Paul, "If, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected, but I press on"

If we don't press on then we fall short and miss the mark.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Right there is the mark Paul had pressed towards manifesting just a bit more of in his day to day.

The reality of who God had made him in His Son, the moment a person believes That Christ died for their sins.

This reality here...

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 
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