KingdomRose
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What is your definition of "The Trinity"? Are they all equal? If they are, then why would Jesus have to be exalted BY the Father? Why would the Father have to GIVE him power and authority?
Standing Up To Jehovah's Witnesses
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What is your definition of "The Trinity"? Are they all equal? If they are, then why would Jesus have to be exalted BY the Father? Why would the Father have to GIVE him power and authority?
The scriptures say;
John 10:30-31 King James Version (KJV)
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Why were they going to stone Him? For blasphemy correct?
KingdomRose
New member
John 10:30 means the same thing as John 17:20-23.
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in me through their word; that THEY may all be one; even as You, Father, are in me and I in You, that they ALSO may be in us, so that the world may believe that You sent me. The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one; I in them and You in me, that they may be perfected in UNITY." (NASB)
Are the disciples also God?
(BTW, the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy, but they were wrong in their accusations. He never claimed to be God or equal to God. Claiming to be THE SON OF GOD was enough to get them heated up. See John 10:36.)
Where does the scripture say they were wrong in their accusation? Would not the Apostle have said so if it were so?
KingdomRose
New member
The Apostle did. He showed in verses 31-39 just what Jesus' position truly was. The Jews accused him of making himself equal to God, but he retorted:
"You say to me whom the Father dispatched into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, I am God's Son?"
He then went on to say that he wasn't doing his own works (which the works would have been if he was equal to God) but those of the Father.
He said He was God's Son. What does that mean to you? Can He be God's Son without having the attributes of God?
Apple7
New member
Here…
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4549542&postcount=262
Here…
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4549548&postcount=263
Here…
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4549554&postcount=264
Here…
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4549566&postcount=265
Here…
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4549572&postcount=266
Another witness smoked.
:cigar::cigar::cigar:
Apple7
New member
KingdomRose
New member
When you were at home with your parents, did people look at you as being the head of the family just like your father was? Usually families have one head---the father. So let me ask you, "can YOU be your father's son without having the attributes of your father?" You could be completely different! You wouldn't be equal, however you look at it. Your father got to make and enforce household rules.
KingdomRose
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Oh, you're just too funny.:yawn: I'll check out your links and reply.
KingdomRose
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Jesus and his father are one Spirit in the same way that a husband and wife are one flesh.
Apple7
New member
KingdomRose
New member
No we're not! LOL! :chuckle: That is an old point that has been explained ad nauseum. I figured that out 40 years ago.
"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on his shoulders: And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6, NASB)
Do you know that there are no upper or lower-case letters in Hebrew? Therefore, the capital letters in that verse were put there by later English translators. So, "mighty god" doesn't have a capital "G" in the Hebrew. Neither does "father" have a capital "F."
Anyway...."mighty god" is translated from El Gibbohr. It is very different from El Shaddai, which means GOD ALL-MIGHTY. No one is ever referred to as "El Shaddai" other than YHWH---Jehovah.
mighty god = el gibbohr = a powerful, important individual = in this case, Jesus Christ
all-mighty god = el shaddai = the one and only true god over all (in English we give Him a capital "G" even though Hebrew doesn't have capitals.
Do you understand this, bsmitts?
Apple7
New member
You mean like the same verbatim usage here...?
The remnant shall return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. (Isa 10.21)
You could have saved yourself yet another lie had you only bothered to read the very next chapter.
Thus, Isa 9 confirms that The Son is Yahweh.
Period.
Further, let's continue to expose your scriptural ignorance..
Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, also the Son, revealed to Moses that He was ‘I AM’ and Yahweh (Exo 3.14 – 15, 6.3).
SonOfCaleb
Active member
Not to be facetious but you tell me...Those are Jesus's OWN words not mine.
SonOfCaleb
Active member
Not only that El in Hebrew literally means mighty one or strong one. Even men in the Bible such as Nimrod were described as gods. Likewise even the angels two of which are known by name in the Bible bear the name El in their names, GabriEL and MichaEL. Gabriels name meaning Able Bodied one of God and Michael/Jesus who is like God.
Many notable men in Bible history such as Daniel, Elijah or Samuel also had names that contained the name god. Interestingly Elijah's name means "My god is Jehovah". El meaning god of course and Jah being the shortened version of Jehovah's name. Elijah throughout his years of prophesying always identified the God he worshiped. Which was especially important because of how prevalent Baal worship was in his day.
The Canaanites also another Semitic people who lived in the vicinity of the Hebrews also worshiped a god known as El. Put simply El was a common and popular appellation in Semitic culture of the day. Thus from a linguistic point of view its obvious the word had many applications and in the context of the scripture does actually refer to someone 'lesser' than the Almighty God EG Jehovah, which is noted at the end of the sentence by the term "Prince of peace".
A prince in antiquity meant someone who had dominion over a particular area, place or thing. The heads of the tribes of Israel were sometimes referred to as Princes too. In some respects its a term that's analogous to what the ancient Persians refereed to as Satraps. A Satrap served under a King. The same way a Prince serves under a King in the ancient as well as modern sense. In fact Daniel in Dan 10:13 describes Michael as one of the 'foremost princes' or chief prince. Therefore the context of what Isiah wrote quite clearly proves the opposite of the Trinity doctrine in that A) Isiah acknowledges the Prince 'Jesus' is not only lesser to God but B) is also a completely separate person to the only King which is Jehovah. No King of course can be a Prince and a King at the same time. You are either sovereign or you are not.
SonOfCaleb
Active member
Im sure you're familiar with the account in Genesis where Jacob wrestled with an Angel.
Gen 32:28 says "Then he said: “Your name will no longer be Jacob but Israel, for you have contended with God and with men and you have at last prevailed.” 29 In turn Jacob inquired: “Tell me, please, your name.” However, he said: “Why is it that you ask my name?” With that he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob named the place Pe·niʹel, for he said, “I have seen God face-to-face, yet my life was preserved."
Interestingly Jacob named the place PeniEL which means "face of God". As you can see from verse 28 the angel changed Jacobs name to IsraEL which means "contended with God or persevered with God". What would you conclude from this scripture now that Jehovahs angel changed Jacobs name to that of a god?