Spiritual Israel

Epoisses

New member
Spiritual Israel is an idea that has gone the way of the dodo bird in modern Protestant Christianity. I frequently attend bible studies from different denominations and many are dispensational in their understanding of the church and Israel. I usually do not voice my opinions on Israel because they are so different but on a few occasions I have. This led to no small dissent and I was really shocked at how far many Christians have gone in the devotion to Israel. I was labeled as anti-Semitic simply because I do not believe that a largely secular and atheistic nation that was born in 1948 is a fulfillment of prophecy. Needless to say I was not invited back; I guess some cannot abide my good company and pleasant disposition. lol So I thought we would go thru the bible and see if there really is a spiritual Israel or if every mention of Israel is always ethnic.

The best place to start with anything is at the beginning so lets start with Jacob the father of Israel. Jacob which means supplanter or deceiver lived up to his name when he stole the birthright from his brother Esau by deception. Jacob was forced to leave his home and family and was actually deceived himself by his uncle Laban when he gave Leah to him as a wife when he thought it was Rachel. Jacob after many years away from home decides to return with a large family of his own. Just before he returns he learns that Esau is waiting with a large company of men who surely mean to do him harm. He splits up his family and spends the night alone in prayer when a stranger attacks him and they wrestle throughout the night. His attacker after hours of conflict touches his thigh and knocks his hip out of socket and tries to leave. Jacob who must have realized the identity of his attacker refuses to let go until he receives a blessing. His tenacity and determination are rewarded when he is given the new name of Israel which means prince of God or he who strives with God.

What we should take away from this story is that Jacob was not born with the name of Israel. It was given to him later in life after he prevailed with the angel of the Lord. This word prevail is very important and actually the word overcome has the same meaning. The overcomers of the seven churches of Revelation receive all the blessings. And actually one of those blessings is receiving a new name. Jacob overcame and became the father of Israel therefore membership in Israel is not based exclusively on ethnicity. Jacob was also the father of ethnic Israel or the twelve tribes so we see two distinct lines that come from him. One line based on spirituality or faith and the other based on ethnicity or the flesh. Jesus speaking of the Roman centurion said - Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt. 8:10-12

…to be continued
 

meshak

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Banned
America support Israel because they believe Israel is God's nation.

They were but Jesus clearly says we have to be Spiritual Israelite to be saved.

Even in the OT, God says to them to be spiritually circumcised.

thank you for your thread.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
They were but Jesus clearly says we have to be Spiritual Israelite to be saved.

:thumb: Some cling to bits and pieces of Paul's teaching and totally ignore others.

For example: "He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins." (Colossians 1:13-14)

Ancient Israel was not the kingdom of the Son of his love. Ancient Israel is gone forever, Titus was asked to destroy it.

I think of ancient Israel as Ozymandias.

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away."

- Percy Bysshe Shelly​
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
The gentiles come into what?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

LA
 

clefty

New member
Spiritual Israel is an idea that has gone the way of the dodo bird in modern Protestant Christianity. I frequently attend bible studies from different denominations and many are dispensational in their understanding of the church and Israel. I usually do not voice my opinions on Israel because they are so different but on a few occasions I have. This led to no small dissent and I was really shocked at how far many Christians have gone in the devotion to Israel. I was labeled as anti-Semitic simply because I do not believe that a largely secular and atheistic nation that was born in 1948 is a fulfillment of prophecy. Needless to say I was not invited back; I guess some cannot abide my good company and pleasant disposition. lol So I thought we would go thru the bible and see if there really is a spiritual Israel or if every mention of Israel is always ethnic.

The best place to start with anything is at the beginning so lets start with Jacob the father of Israel. Jacob which means supplanter or deceiver lived up to his name when he stole the birthright from his brother Esau by deception. Jacob was forced to leave his home and family and was actually deceived himself by his uncle Laban when he gave Leah to him as a wife when he thought it was Rachel. Jacob after many years away from home decides to return with a large family of his own. Just before he returns he learns that Esau is waiting with a large company of men who surely mean to do him harm. He splits up his family and spends the night alone in prayer when a stranger attacks him and they wrestle throughout the night. His attacker after hours of conflict touches his thigh and knocks his hip out of socket and tries to leave. Jacob who must have realized the identity of his attacker refuses to let go until he receives a blessing. His tenacity and determination are rewarded when he is given the new name of Israel which means prince of God or he who strives with God.

What we should take away from this story is that Jacob was not born with the name of Israel. It was given to him later in life after he prevailed with the angel of the Lord. This word prevail is very important and actually the word overcome has the same meaning. The overcomers of the seven churches of Revelation receive all the blessings. And actually one of those blessings is receiving a new name. Jacob overcame and became the father of Israel therefore membership in Israel is not based exclusively on ethnicity. Jacob was also the father of ethnic Israel or the twelve tribes so we see two distinct lines that come from him. One line based on spirituality or faith and the other based on ethnicity or the flesh. Jesus speaking of the Roman centurion said - Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt. 8:10-12

…to be continued

Wow...another thread?

Can't keep up fast enough with what's going on...not sure this has been recalled...

Rev. 3: "7To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of the One who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What He opens, no one will shut; and what He shuts, no one will open.

8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. For you have only a little strength, yet you have kept My word and have not denied My name. 9Look at those who belong to the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews but are liars instead. I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I love you.

10Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

We see here a warning and a pattern of what is to come...

Fast forward to the modern age and there are even Jews who adamantly reject Zionist Israel for exactly this reason...it is a secular political state...

Please consider them in this discussion...

http://www.nkusa.org

Why is it they they insist the modern state is apostate? Because Israel will be established by the messiah YET TO COME...

Other Jews in conflict with early Zionists even wrote of Hitler being a tool of God as punishment for the Jew's success in assimilation and Zionist pursuits...

Zionists in turn veiwed these Jews as weak and unfit to repopulate Israel once it was recovered from the ottomans before WWI and then the British after WWII

But yes Christianity has always used and protected the Jew for its own purposes...

Don't forget who owns most of the land there...besides the Eastern Orthodox...

https://ivarfjeld.com/2013/02/04/israel-seems-to-have-sold-jerusalem-to-the-vatican/

So if Christians wish to crusade again to save lands rejected by the Spirit thereby no longer holy...then by all means continue your idolatrous traditions...be it statues or relics or the idea of holy land...Christians have been warned and should have learned the lesson of those that killed their husband thus forever breakin the marriage vow made with them "until death do us part"...the broke it...

what God has joined let no man separate...the new man IN HIM is neither Jew nor Gentile but follows the continuation of the church in the wilderness...

I am sure this is covered elsewhere here in TOL but I don't have time to hunt it all down and just wished to see it as the critical part of this discussion...
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
Wow...another thread?

Yes, one of MAD followers is so obsessed about literal Israelites claiming they will be saved without accept Jesus as Lord and Savior no matter what. so we are showing them what Jesus says about spiritual Israelite.
 

clefty

New member
And they still refuse to accept Jesus' word about spiritual Israelite.

Yes I gathered as much but have added two vital points in this discussion:

1) some Jews themselves reject man's attempts to build that which the messiah was to have done

2) this is another attempt for crusade and destruction of Protestants first and foremost...Rome seeks to rule and finds the Jews useful tools and easy scapegoats...and the Zionist Christians even more so...
 

meshak

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Banned
2) this is another attempt for crusade and destruction of Protestants first and formost...Rome seeks to rule and finds the Jews useful tools and easy scapegoats...and the Zionist Christians even more so...

You know that many protestant churches believe literal Israelites will be saved without Jesus too.
 

clefty

New member
You know that many protestant churches believe literal Israelites will be saved without Jesus too.

Yes yes...the reformation is all but dead...not even here on TOL is a Luther's 500 year anniversary thread begun...

Protestants have done everything to appease the Jew be politically correct and not seem too antisemitic when Luther and our Savior told the truth about them...

The rot has spread into everything even thinking the OT is not ours or the Sabbath for us...

Whatever...is why the west is collapsing under usury and debt and slavery...punishment from Him for returning to our vomit...

Would we repent and restore Him His ways...but even the reformation was still born...Calvin himself continuing papist traditions of persecution and death for dissent...

It will be but a remnant Meshak which remain and endure to the end...may He lead...Yah have mercy...

Zionists rebuild Babylon out of which we should flee...but not on the Sabbath...lol
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
The gentiles come into what?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

LA

God's kingdom.

The text says into Israel--

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: (the elect)

as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
So are you saying Jews will be converted by God and all of them will be saved?

This sounds like "no will for Israelites" and what MADists believe and so does Zionists..
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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defender_demon_by_suspension99-d6ybwqh.jpg
 

Epoisses

New member
The gentiles come into what?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

LA

Some of us start at chap. 8 and follow Paul's thought the whole way through to chap. 11. Predestination being the main topic not Israel's unbelief.
 

Epoisses

New member
Wow...another thread?

Can't keep up fast enough with what's going on...not sure this has been recalled...

Rev. 3: "7To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of the One who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What He opens, no one will shut; and what He shuts, no one will open.

8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. For you have only a little strength, yet you have kept My word and have not denied My name. 9Look at those who belong to the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews but are liars instead. I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I love you.

10Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

We see here a warning and a pattern of what is to come...

Fast forward to the modern age and there are even Jews who adamantly reject Zionist Israel for exactly this reason...it is a secular political state...

Please consider them in this discussion...

http://www.nkusa.org

Why is it they they insist the modern state is apostate? Because Israel will be established by the messiah YET TO COME...

Other Jews in conflict with early Zionists even wrote of Hitler being a tool of God as punishment for the Jew's success in assimilation and Zionist pursuits...

Zionists in turn veiwed these Jews as weak and unfit to repopulate Israel once it was recovered from the ottomans before WWI and then the British after WWII

But yes Christianity has always used and protected the Jew for its own purposes...

Don't forget who owns most of the land there...besides the Eastern Orthodox...

https://ivarfjeld.com/2013/02/04/israel-seems-to-have-sold-jerusalem-to-the-vatican/

So if Christians wish to crusade again to save lands rejected by the Spirit thereby no longer holy...then by all means continue your idolatrous traditions...be it statues or relics or the idea of holy land...Christians have been warned and should have learned the lesson of those that killed their husband thus forever breakin the marriage vow made with them "until death do us part"...the broke it...

what God has joined let no man separate...the new man IN HIM is neither Jew nor Gentile but follows the continuation of the church in the wilderness...

I am sure this is covered elsewhere here in TOL but I don't have time to hunt it all down and just wished to see it as the critical part of this discussion...

God has a plan for the Jews. Accept Jesus Christ or be lost forever. Not that hard to figure out.
 
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