Alright Sozo, you said you could prove to me how I wasnt a Christian, you asked me to start another thread to do it. I'm calling the bluff. Lets go.
Sozo, Prove It.
- Thread starter paulpeterson83
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Ha, good one.
Anything Sozo? Anything at all?
death2impiety
Maximeee's Husband
paulpeterson83 said:
Does it really require proof? I agree with SUTG. you openly admit it. What other proof is needed?
Sozo
New member
First of all, I will prove to you what salvation is. If you want to dispute the proof, I ask you, or anyone else to address the bible verses directly, because they are the only source we have to affirm that there is such a thing as salvation. After we can agree on what salvation is, then I will prove that it cannot be lost or forfeited.
Therefore... based solely on what God says in the bible, here is what it means to be saved:
Key verse:
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" …1 John 5:12
Who is Jesus?
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."
…Acts 4:12
"...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." …Romans 10:9-10
"Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." … John 20:29-31
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him." …John 3:17
"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." 1 John 4:15
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. …John 14:6
The bible is clear in that there is no other way that we can be saved, except through Jesus. So, can we agree that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is Lord? Can we also agree that salvation is through Him?
What is Salvation?
Salvation: Soteria (Greek) denotes deliverance and preservation.
Eph 2:8 tells us:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"
We read in Romans Chapter 10 that if you confess that Jesus is Lord, and believe that God raised Him from the dead, you are saved and we just read that it is by grace.
Because of God's grace we can now believe that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, and when we accept this in our hearts, and confess it with our mouths, the result is righteousness and salvation.
What is it about Jesus that saves us? What did He do?
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" …2 Corinthians 5:21
"He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world" …1 John 2:2
"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins" 1 John 4:10
Jesus satisfied a debt He did not owe, for us who had a debt we could not pay and God accepted it and we were reconciled to God.
" …while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" … Romans 5:10
What debt did Jesus pay?
"For the wages of sin is death" …Romans 6:23
"For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all" … Romans 6:10
Jesus died to sin for all, and that death, satisfied God and the debt was paid, and all were reconciled to Him.
"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation" 2 Corinthians 5:19
"...we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:20
God has changed the relationship through the blood of Christ, by removing the debt that we owed, and no longer counting our trespasses against us, and He desires that we change our relationship with Him.
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;" 1 Peter 3:18
Jesus was raised from the dead
"...knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him" …Romans 6:9
What is Life?
Life: Zoe (Greek)It denotes a state of being in the absolute sense.
We are saved by His Life!
"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." …Romans 5:10
"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." …Romans 5:18
"...whoever believes may in Him have eternal life" …John 3:15
"...whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life"
… John 3:16
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life"…John 5:24
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life" …John 6:34
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life" …John 6:47
"I came that they might have life" …John 10:10
"I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand" …John 10:28
"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies" …John 11:25
"And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent" …John 17:3
What do we receive when we believe?
"Go your way, stand and speak to the people in the temple the whole message of this Life" …Acts 5:20
"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ"
…Romans 5:17
"...as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." …Romans 5:21
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" …Romans 6:23
"For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" …Romans 11:15
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me".
… Galatians 2:20
"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God"
…Colossians 3:3
"When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory" …Colossians 3:4
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus" …2 Timothy 1:1
"...but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" …2 Timothy 1:10
"...being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" …Titus 3:7
"And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life."
…1 John 2:25
"And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son" …1 John 5:11
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" …1 John 5:12
"It is the Spirit who gives life " …John 6:63
"He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive"
…John 7:39
"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." …Romans 8:9
"Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" …1 Corinthians 3:16
"...your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own" …1 Corinthians 6:19
"for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." …2 Corinthians 3:6
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" …Ephesians 1:13
"And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." …1 John 3:24
"By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit." …1 John 4:13
Conclusion:
Salvation is receiving the very Life of God!
Therefore... based solely on what God says in the bible, here is what it means to be saved:
Salvation is Life!
Key verse:
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" …1 John 5:12
Who is Jesus?
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."
…Acts 4:12
"...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." …Romans 10:9-10
"Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." … John 20:29-31
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him." …John 3:17
"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." 1 John 4:15
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. …John 14:6
The bible is clear in that there is no other way that we can be saved, except through Jesus. So, can we agree that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is Lord? Can we also agree that salvation is through Him?
What is Salvation?
Salvation: Soteria (Greek) denotes deliverance and preservation.
Eph 2:8 tells us:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"
We read in Romans Chapter 10 that if you confess that Jesus is Lord, and believe that God raised Him from the dead, you are saved and we just read that it is by grace.
Because of God's grace we can now believe that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, and when we accept this in our hearts, and confess it with our mouths, the result is righteousness and salvation.
What is it about Jesus that saves us? What did He do?
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" …2 Corinthians 5:21
"He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world" …1 John 2:2
"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins" 1 John 4:10
Jesus satisfied a debt He did not owe, for us who had a debt we could not pay and God accepted it and we were reconciled to God.
" …while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" … Romans 5:10
What debt did Jesus pay?
"For the wages of sin is death" …Romans 6:23
"For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all" … Romans 6:10
Jesus died to sin for all, and that death, satisfied God and the debt was paid, and all were reconciled to Him.
"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation" 2 Corinthians 5:19
"...we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:20
God has changed the relationship through the blood of Christ, by removing the debt that we owed, and no longer counting our trespasses against us, and He desires that we change our relationship with Him.
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;" 1 Peter 3:18
Jesus was raised from the dead
"...knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him" …Romans 6:9
What is Life?
Life: Zoe (Greek)It denotes a state of being in the absolute sense.
We are saved by His Life!
"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." …Romans 5:10
"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." …Romans 5:18
"...whoever believes may in Him have eternal life" …John 3:15
"...whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life"
… John 3:16
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life"…John 5:24
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life" …John 6:34
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life" …John 6:47
"I came that they might have life" …John 10:10
"I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand" …John 10:28
"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies" …John 11:25
"And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent" …John 17:3
What do we receive when we believe?
"Go your way, stand and speak to the people in the temple the whole message of this Life" …Acts 5:20
"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ"
…Romans 5:17
"...as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." …Romans 5:21
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" …Romans 6:23
"For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" …Romans 11:15
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me".
… Galatians 2:20
"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God"
…Colossians 3:3
"When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory" …Colossians 3:4
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus" …2 Timothy 1:1
"...but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" …2 Timothy 1:10
"...being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" …Titus 3:7
"And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life."
…1 John 2:25
"And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son" …1 John 5:11
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" …1 John 5:12
"It is the Spirit who gives life " …John 6:63
"He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive"
…John 7:39
"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." …Romans 8:9
"Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" …1 Corinthians 3:16
"...your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own" …1 Corinthians 6:19
"for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." …2 Corinthians 3:6
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" …Ephesians 1:13
"And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." …1 John 3:24
"By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit." …1 John 4:13
Conclusion:
Salvation is receiving the very Life of God!
Sozo said he could prove that I never was a Christian. He told me to start another thread and he would show me how. I called him on it. I'm waiting.
Sozo said:
So whats your point? I know all of this already. I believed in Jesus, and that he died for my sins and was risen three days later. I believed all of it. Regardless of what you say. This is what you said to get this thread started:
Now, how do you intend on proving to me that I never really was a christian. I understand what salvation is, its not that hard of concept. You laid it out pretty good. But, that doesnt prove anything. So, prove to me that I never was a Christian. After all you did say that "I most certainly can prove it." So, prove it to me and every one else here.
Sozo
New member
Then you agree that salvation is life?
In other words you agree that in order for you to have been saved you died, and were given God's life? The life that you had was destroyed and no longer exists, and the only life that you would have as a saved person would be the life of God? Correct?
In other words you agree that in order for you to have been saved you died, and were given God's life? The life that you had was destroyed and no longer exists, and the only life that you would have as a saved person would be the life of God? Correct?
Sozo said:
I can say that as a ten year old child, which is when my "conversion" happened, I believed it. Back in the day, I would have agreed with you. But, because I now think you guys are totally out there and nuttier then a fruit cake, I no longer believe it.
I dont know what life a ten year old could have that could be destroyed, but, this just comes back to my point, that if it does turn out that your right, which I dont think you are, I would just use the once saved always saved argument. Thanks for helping me prove my point.
Rock on dude.
Sozo
New member
paulpeterson83 said:
That is the typical evasion post that I expect from someone who can't defend their so-called christian experience.
The people (like Aimiel) who come to Jesus and say "Lord Lord did I not cast out demons and heal the sick", will still hear Jesus say that He NEVER knew them. It is no different for someone like you. Expect to be disappointed.
If anyone else wants to tackle the verses I gave that tells us what salvation is, be my guest. It appears that Paul has taken the Zakath road of debate.
Sozo said:
I'm not saying that the verses quoted dont detail what salvation is. I'm not disputing that at all. Show me once where I disputed that. You said that you could prove to me that I wasnt ever a christian. I'm waiting for some form of proof, real world proof, that shows I wasnt a christian.
What did you expect me to say?
deardelmar said:
Like I said, the once saved always saved argument.
Sozo
New member
The verses that I used in my lengthy post affirm that for you to have been saved you died, and were given God's life? The life that you had was destroyed and no longer exists, and the only life that you would have as a saved person would be the life of God? Correct?paulpeterson83 said:
If you want to claim to have been saved, you have to agree that these things are true according to what God says about salvation. Do you agree or not?
Lucky said:
Always a loop hole. But any way, if it was true why isnt it widely taught and preached. I've only ever heard of it once before. But either way, its not whats taught. And thats what counts.
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