Should We Have Women Pastors Today ?

[Tambora]

Allow me to say that the Scripture is Joel 2 has nothing to do with TODAY!

Poppycock.
Paul disagrees that the examples given in the OT are not for us (ie. believers).

1 Corinthians 10​

(6) Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did.​

.​

.​

(11) Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.​

​

​

Romans 15​

(4) For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.​

​

​

1 Corinthians 9​

(9) For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned?​

(10) Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop.​

​

​

Acts 17​

(11) Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures [which was the OT] daily to see if these things were so.​

Not to mention that there were women prophets during the life of Paul.

Luke 2​

(36) And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin,​

(37) and then as a widow until she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.​

(38) And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak of him to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem.​

​

​

Acts 21​

(8) On the next day we departed and came to Caesarea, and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him.​

(9) He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied.​

The Joel prophecy starts with the statement “I will pour out My Spirit.”
Acts states, “. . . in the last days” and then quotes the Joel 2:28-32.

It would be a mistake to think that "last days" can only be a reference to future end times.

Hebrews 1​

(2) but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.​

​

​

1 Corinthians 10​

(11) Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.​

Now, back to the the term "deacon" [diakonos] that started this discussion ........

1 Timothy 3​

(13) For those who serve well as deacons [diakonos] gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.​

​

​

Romans 16​

(1) I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant [diakonos] of the church at Cenchreae,​

Ain't that a hoot! A woman diakonos.

I conclude with the words of Paul .......

Galatians 3​

(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

 

[Rodger]

Poppycock.
Paul disagrees that the examples given in the OT are not for us (ie. believers).

1 Corinthians 10​

(6) Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did.​

.​

.​

(11) Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.​

​

​

Romans 15​

(4) For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.​

​

​

1 Corinthians 9​

(9) For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned?​

(10) Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop.​

​

​

Acts 17​

(11) Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures [which was the OT] daily to see if these things were so.​

Not to mention that there were women prophets during the life of Paul.

Luke 2​

(36) And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin,​

(37) and then as a widow until she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.​

(38) And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak of him to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem.​

​

​

Acts 21​

(8) On the next day we departed and came to Caesarea, and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him.​

(9) He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied.​

It would be a mistake to think that "last days" can only be a reference to future end times.

Hebrews 1​

(2) but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.​

​

​

1 Corinthians 10​

(11) Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.​

Now, back to the the term "deacon" [diakonos] that started this discussion ........

1 Timothy 3​

(13) For those who serve well as deacons [diakonos] gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.​

​

​

Romans 16​

(1) I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant [diakonos] of the church at Cenchreae,​

Ain't that a hoot! A woman diakonos.

I conclude with the words of Paul .......

Galatians 3​

(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

You are trying to argue with me over what God said.

Do you find that a little strange?

I did not write the passage in 1st Timothy.

The thread was abour PASTORS and now you being up women prophets in Pauls day?????

With all due respect, the examples you used have nothing to do with tthe thread.

I completely agree that the events seen in the Old Test. were examples for us to use today but again, that has nothing at all to do with what Joel said.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, but obviously, the entire prophecy of Joel was not literally fulfilled then and has not been fulfilled as of today. Indeed, if we actually read Joel 2 we find the following in verses 30-32........

"I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls."

Now can you post any Bible Scriptures from Acts where those things happened????

No you can not! None of these things literally happened on the Day of Pentecost. Before the literal fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy there are a number of other things that have to happen. For one thing, there is the prediction of a great invasion of Israel from enemies to the North in Joel 2:1-10.

In addition, the Battle of Armageddon must be fought. We read the following words.

Joel 2:11..........
"The LORD thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?"

Joels prediction also says that the nation Israel will be regathered and converted. The passage reads as follows in 2:12-17........
"Even now,’ declares the LORD, ‘return to me with all your heart, with fasting and weeping and mourning.’ Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity. Who knows? He may turn and have pity and leave behind a blessing – grain offerings and drink offerings for the LORD your God. Blow the trumpet in Zion, declare a holy fast, call a sacred assembly. Gather the people, consecrate the assembly; bring together the elders, gather the children, those nursing at the breast. Let the bridegroom leave his room and the bride her chamber. Let the priests, who minister before the LORD, weep between the temple porch and the altar. Let them say, ‘Spare your people, O LORD. Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn, a byword among the nations. Why should they say among the peoples, ‘Where is their God?’

None of these things have taken place. In the Book of Joel it clearly says that the prophecy that Peter cited on Pentecost will take place after these events are fulfilled. Therefore, in no sense, was the prophecy of Joel fulfilled at Pentecost or even began to be fulfilled at Pentecost. Indeed, it cannot be fulfilled until these other events take place.

I really have no desire to argue with you. The Scripture is what it is.

 

[Clete]

You are trying to argue with me over what God said.

Do you find that a little strange?

I did not write the passage in 1st Timothy.

The thread was abour PASTORS and now you being up women prophets in Pauls day?????

With all due respect, the examples you used have nothing to do with tthe thread.

I completely agree that the events seen in the Old Test. were examples for us to use today but again, that has nothing at all to do with what Joel said.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, but obviously, the entire prophecy of Joel was not literally fulfilled then and has not been fulfilled as of today. Indeed, if we actually read Joel 2 we find the following in verses 30-32........

"I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls."

Now can you post any Bible Scriptures from Acts where those things happened????

No you can not! None of these things literally happened on the Day of Pentecost. Before the literal fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy there are a number of other things that have to happen. For one thing, there is the prediction of a great invasion of Israel from enemies to the North in Joel 2:1-10.

In addition, the Battle of Armageddon must be fought. We read the following words.

Joel 2:11..........
"The LORD thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?"

Joels prediction also says that the nation Israel will be regathered and converted. The passage reads as follows in 2:12-17........
"Even now,’ declares the LORD, ‘return to me with all your heart, with fasting and weeping and mourning.’ Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity. Who knows? He may turn and have pity and leave behind a blessing – grain offerings and drink offerings for the LORD your God. Blow the trumpet in Zion, declare a holy fast, call a sacred assembly. Gather the people, consecrate the assembly; bring together the elders, gather the children, those nursing at the breast. Let the bridegroom leave his room and the bride her chamber. Let the priests, who minister before the LORD, weep between the temple porch and the altar. Let them say, ‘Spare your people, O LORD. Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn, a byword among the nations. Why should they say among the peoples, ‘Where is their God?’

None of these things have taken place. In the Book of Joel it clearly says that the prophecy that Peter cited on Pentecost will take place after these events are fulfilled. Therefore, in no sense, was the prophecy of Joel fulfilled at Pentecost or even began to be fulfilled at Pentecost. Indeed, it cannot be fulfilled until these other events take place.

I really have no desire to argue with you. The Scripture is what it is.

Now who's arguing against what the scripture EXPLICITLY says?

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:​

​

The scripture is what it is Rodger!

 

[7djengo7]

Should We Have Women Pastors Today ?​

No woman has ever been/will ever be a pastor; no pastor has ever been/will ever be a woman. So, "women pastors" is an oxymoron and a meaningless phrase. So, saying "Should we have women pastors?" is not really asking a question, just like saying "May I pet your poodle scorpion?" is not really asking a question.

 

[ok doser]

No woman has ever been/will ever be a pastor; no pastor has ever been/will ever be a woman. So, "women pastors" is an oxymoron and a meaningless phrase. So, saying "Should we have women pastors?" is not really asking a question, just like saying "May I pet your poodle scorpion?" is not really asking a question.

My initial inclination was to respond in a similar manner, in that any "women pastors" are fraudulent.

Instead I went for brevity. Which didn't work out well.

 

[Rodger]

My initial inclination was to respond in a similar manner, in that any "women pastors" are fraudulent.

Instead I went for brevity. Which didn't work out well.

That was exactly what I was going to ask.

However, I thought it would be better to be nice about it.

 

[Tambora]

You are trying to argue with me over what God said.

I quoted scripture where Paul calls a woman the exact same term (diakonos) used for "deacon" in 1 Timothy 3.

The Scripture is what it is.

Amen.

 

[7djengo7]

Hey, that belongs in the "Different Stuff" forum...oh, wait...that's "Diff'rent Strokes".

 

[Hoping]

Poppycock.
Paul disagrees that the examples given in the OT are not for us (ie. believers).

1 Corinthians 10​

(6) Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did.​

.​

.​

(11) Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.​

​

​

Romans 15​

(4) For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.​

​

​

1 Corinthians 9​

(9) For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned?​

(10) Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop.​

​

​

Acts 17​

(11) Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures [which was the OT] daily to see if these things were so.​

Not to mention that there were women prophets during the life of Paul.

Luke 2​

(36) And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin,​

(37) and then as a widow until she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.​

(38) And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak of him to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem.​

​

​

Acts 21​

(8) On the next day we departed and came to Caesarea, and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him.​

(9) He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied.​

It would be a mistake to think that "last days" can only be a reference to future end times.

Hebrews 1​

(2) but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.​

​

​

1 Corinthians 10​

(11) Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.​

Now, back to the the term "deacon" [diakonos] that started this discussion ........

1 Timothy 3​

(13) For those who serve well as deacons [diakonos] gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.​

​

​

Romans 16​

(1) I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant [diakonos] of the church at Cenchreae,​

Ain't that a hoot! A woman diakonos.

I conclude with the words of Paul .......

Galatians 3​

(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

A woman can serve the church without teaching scriptural doctrine to men.

 

[Rodger]

I quoted scripture where Paul calls a woman the exact same term (diakonos) used for "deacon" in 1 Timothy 3.


Amen.

I agree. However the context of that Scripture is all about no one being superior to another. That does not mean that the 1 Timothy 3:1-2 Scripture does not mean MAN and that HUSBAND does not mean male.

 

[Clete]

I quoted scripture where Paul calls a woman the exact same term (diakonos) used for "deacon" in 1 Timothy 3.


Amen.

He will NEVER respond to the actual point you've made.

 

[Rodger]

He will NEVER respond to the actual point you've made.

Read post #50.

 

[Tambora]

A woman can serve the church without teaching scriptural doctrine to men.

So can men.

 

[Tambora]

I agree. However the context of that Scripture is all about no one being superior to another. That does not mean that the 1 Timothy 3:1-2 Scripture does not mean MAN and that HUSBAND does not mean male.

You are confusing the scriptures I quoted.

The scripture I quoted where Paul calls a woman the exact same term (diakonos) used for "deacon" in 1 Timothy 3 is:

Romans 16​

(1) I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant [diakonos] of the church at Cenchreae,​

 

[Rodger]

You are confusing the scriptures I quoted.

The scripture I quoted where Paul calls a woman the exact same term (diakonos) used for "deacon" in 1 Timothy 3 is:

Romans 16​

(1) I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant [diakonos] of the church at Cenchreae,​

Sister, I understand what you are saying and I did you make a good point and I am not disagreeing with you.

In Romans 16:1, Phoebe is called a “deacon” (or “servant”) in the church and is highly commended by Paul. But, as with Priscilla, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that Phoebe was a pastor or a teacher of men in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not for deacons (1 Timothy 3:1–13; Titus 1:6-9).

It's possible Phoebe held some official position in the church, which may be one reason she was qualified to deliver the letter to the Romans on behalf of Paul. It's of note that Phoebe is referred to as a diakonon "of the church," rather than a servant in general. Likewise, in the next verse, she will be described as a prostatis, a term which often refers to a female guardian or overseer.

While Paul's explanation of the role of an elder is clear, when it comes to gender in1 Timothy 3:1–7, verses such as Romans 16:1 are one reason some Christians believe roles such as deaconess are biblically valid however, rather, the matter is settled because of the creation ordinance of Federal Headship!

 

[Rodger]

So can men.

Absolutely agreed.

We have a woman music minister, a woman is head of the finance dept. and several men teach in childrens classes.

 

[Tambora]

A point that always needs to be under consideration is the culture at the time.
So in today's world I prefer to listen to those based on their knowledge rather than their sex.
I can tell you right now in today's culture that I would much much much rather be taught by a woman scholar who has studied ancient culture, ancient Semitic language, and has studied ancient writings of the Jews and how they understood idioms, symbolism, and metaphors in scripture than listen to a man like Hal Lindsey try to convince me that the "locusts" in Revelation are modern military helicopters.

 

[Hoping]

So can men.

Amen.
Our brothers and I used to do "loads" after work.
We had several trucks and moved furniture, or cleaned out empty houses, or trashy yards.
That money went to the ministry.

 

[Hoping]

A point that always needs to be under consideration is the culture at the time.
So in today's world I prefer to listen to those based on their knowledge rather than their sex.
I can tell you right now in today's culture that I would much much much rather be taught by a woman scholar who has studied ancient culture, ancient Semitic language, and has studied ancient writings of the Jews and how they understood idioms, symbolism, and metaphors in scripture than listen to a man like Hal Lindsey try to convince me that the "locusts" in Revelation are modern military helicopters.

Did the culture change or did God change ?
Which will you follow ?

 

[Tambora]

Did the culture change or did God change ?
Which will you follow ?

There has been lots of changes in culture throughout history.
As to the question of whether God changed then I would have to remind that God didn't have a problem with Deborah (a woman) to judge over His people and that Athaliah (a woman) ruled over Judah as their monarch on the throne for 6 years between the rule of King Jehoram and King Ahaziah.
So I ask you, was it God that changed or the culture?