ECT Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[JonahofAkron]

Tet cannot discern that the three accounts of this in Mark, Matthew, and Luke concern both what happened in 70ad and what will happen at the Second Coming.

These were the two next events in prophecy to take place, and the LORD lumped them all together, except for a brief hint found in Luke.

There are similarities between the events of 70ad and the Second Coming. Tet majors on these, and ignores the MANY differences between the two events, to his own peril.

His adoption of preterism was born out of a recent hatred of all things dispensational and for the King James Bible.
He sought solace from preterism after the dispensationalist and KJB believer john w hurt his feelings.

Agreed.

 

[genuineoriginal]

(Matt 24:34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This is just one verse amongst many, but unless you can show this one verse means something it does not, than you can't prove preterism wrong.

I don't need to prove the verse means something the verse does not mean to prove Preterism is wrong.
This year there are 1945 proofs that Preterism is wrong.
Next year there will be 1946, the year after that 1947.

However, as far as the verse goes, it is obvious to me that both Preterists and Futurists misunderstand it, since both use the exact same verse in the exact same way to prove their points.

Matthew 24:33-34 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

Jesus mentioned that the disciples would see "all these things" and that this generation would not pass until "all these things" are fulfilled.

Jesus also said that when the disciples saw "all these things" then "it" is near, even at the doors.

So, the question that must be resolved is what does Jesus refer to when He says "all these things" and what does Jesus refer to when He says "it".

We can know for sure that "it" is not "all these things" since "all these things" happens before "it" happens.

Here are the things that Jesus says happen before something else:

"wars and rumours of wars", "nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes" and "the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the land (of Israel or of Rome?) for a witness unto all nations (Gentiles?)" all happen before "the end".

"the abomination of desolation" happens before the "great tribulation".

"great tribulation" happens before "Jesus comes in His glory".

Preterists and Futurists agree that "all these things" include everything from "wars and rumours of wars" to "Jesus comes in His glory."

They leave nothing left for "it".

But we have another account of the prophecy that tells us what Jesus meant when He said "when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near".

Luke 21:20 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.​

When Jesus spoke of seeing "all these things" happening before "it" happens, He was speaking of everything leading up to and including "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" happening before "the desolation of Jerusalem".

So, when Jesus said that this generation would not pass until "all these things" are fulfilled, He was speaking of everything leading up to "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" in 66 CE .

And when the disciples saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" in 66 CE they fled to Pella.

 

[tetelestai]

His adoption of preterism was born out of a recent hatred of all things dispensational and for the King James Bible.
He sought solace from preterism after the dispensationalist and KJB believer john w hurt his feelings.

As usual when you can't refute your Dispensationalism with facts, you resort to making things up about me that are not true.

When people resort to ad hominem (which is what you are doing) it is a tell-tale sign they are losing a debate/argument.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

As usual when you can't refute your Dispensationalism with facts, you resort to making things up about me that are not true.

When people resort to ad hominem (which is what you are doing) it is a tell-tale sign they are losing a debate/argument.

it's my opinion

 

[tetelestai]

He said that He would gather the the elect of Israel from wherever He had scattered them, according to prophecy.

Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

As usual we see steko the Dispensationalist taking a passage from the OT that was fulfilled when the Jews returned to Judah from captivity in Babylon, and applying the fulfilled passage to the yet future.

 

[tetelestai]

I don't need to prove the verse means something the verse does not mean to prove Preterism is wrong.
This year there are 1945 proofs that Preterism is wrong.
Next year there will be 1946, the year after that 1947.

However, as far as the verse goes, it is obvious to me that both Preterists and Futurists misunderstand it, since both use the exact same verse in the exact same way to prove their points.

Matthew 24:33-34 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

Jesus mentioned that the disciples would see "all these things" and that this generation would not pass until "all these things" are fulfilled.

Jesus also said that when the disciples saw "all these things" then "it" is near, even at the doors.

So, the question that must be resolved is what does Jesus refer to when He says "all these things" and what does Jesus refer to when He says "it".

We can know for sure that "it" is not "all these things" since "all these things" happens before "it" happens.

Here are the things that Jesus says happen before something else:

"wars and rumours of wars", "nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes" and "the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the land (of Israel or of Rome?) for a witness unto all nations (Gentiles?)" all happen before "the end".

"the abomination of desolation" happens before the "great tribulation".

"great tribulation" happens before "Jesus comes in His glory".

Preterists and Futurists agree that "all these things" include everything from "wars and rumours of wars" to "Jesus comes in His glory."

They leave nothing left for "it".

But we have another account of the prophecy that tells us what Jesus meant when He said "when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near".

Luke 21:20 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.​

When Jesus spoke of seeing "all these things" happening before "it" happens, He was speaking of everything leading up to and including "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" happening before "the desolation of Jerusalem".

So, when Jesus said that this generation would not pass until "all these things" are fulfilled, He was speaking of everything leading up to "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" in 66 CE .

And when the disciples saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" in 66 CE they fled to Pella.

Once again, we someone try to explain Matt 24:34, and fail miserably.

The "it" you are referring to is the end of the ages, the end of the OC, the end of the old earth and the old heavens.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Once again, we someone try to explain Matt 24:34, and fail miserably.

The "it" you are referring to is the end of the ages, the end of the OC, the end of the old earth and the old heavens.

Yes, I see your point.
When you try to explain Matthew 24:34, you fail miserably.

Now, if you used the actual words of Jesus instead, and compared them as they are used throughout the Olivet Discourse in all three of the Gospels it is found in, then you might do a better job at it.

 

[tetelestai]

Yes, I see your point.
When you try to explain Matthew 24:34, you fail miserably.

Now, if you used the actual words of Jesus instead, and compared them as they are used throughout the Olivet Discourse in all three of the Gospels it is found in, then you might do a better job at it.

I believe Matt 24:34 means exactly what it says.

It is you who does not.

Same thing for the following two verses, you don't believe what they say:

(Luke 21:32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

(Mark 13:30) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

I believe exactly what Jesus said. I believe some from the generation He was speaking to were still alive when everything in Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 took place.

You have to twist the verses into pretzels, and claim they don't mean what they say.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I believe Matt 24:34 means exactly what it says.

So do I, the problem is that Matthew 24:34 does not mean what you think it means.

I believe exactly what Jesus said. I believe some from the generation He was speaking to were still alive when everything in Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 took place.

Some from the generation Jesus was speaking to were still alive when everything before "it" took place.

This is "it"

Matthew 24:2 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

Mark 13:2 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

Luke 21:6 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

The generation did not pass before the Temple was destroyed.

Preterism is based on a poor understanding of Matthew 24:34 that makes Preterists think that generation would not pass until Jesus returned in glory.

 

[tetelestai]

So do I, the problem is that Matthew 24:34 does not mean what you think it means.



Some from the generation Jesus was speaking to were still alive when everything before "it" took place.

This is "it"

Matthew 24:2 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

Mark 13:2 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

Luke 21:6 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

The generation did not pass before the Temple was destroyed.

Preterism is based on a poor understanding of Matthew 24:34 that makes Preterists think that generation would not pass until Jesus returned in glory.

You're embarrassing yourself.

I've seen just about all the explanations for why Matt 24:34 doesn't mean what it says, but yours is the weakest one I have ever seen.

(Mark 13:30) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.


"all these things" is not synonymous with "it".

 

[genuineoriginal]

I've seen just about all the explanations for why Matt 24:34 doesn't mean what it says, but yours is the weakest one I have ever seen.

Matthew 24:34 means what it says.
You just do not understand what it says.

(Mark 13:30) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.


"all these things" is not synonymous with "it".

Exactly what I have been saying.

Mark 13:29 29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.​

It is obvious that "these things" happen before "it" happens.

 

[tetelestai]

It is obvious that "these things" happen before "it" happens.

(Luke 21:31) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Why don't you tell us what "these things" are?

 

[genuineoriginal]

(Luke 21:31) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Why don't you tell us what "these things" are?

The same as these things

Luke 21:36 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.​

 

[steko]

As usual we see steko the Dispensationalist taking a passage from the OT that was fulfilled when the Jews returned to Judah from captivity in Babylon, and applying the fulfilled passage to the yet future.

As usual, we see Preter-wrest Tet, the irrevocable covenant denier, refusing to acknowledge that Israel has been dispersed from the land more than once and that GOD will keep His promise regarding His promise to Abraham concerning the land which Abraham has never actually inherited as promised.......yet.

 

[DAN P]

Like what?

Hi and read i Paul was ENTRUSTED witha DISPENSATION in 1 Cor 9:17 !!

You need to take a DISPENSATIONAL course 101 for SURE !!:rotfl::rotfl:

DAN P

 

[Lazy afternoon]

As usual, we see Preter-wrest Tet, the irrevocable covenant denier, refusing to acknowledge that Israel has been dispersed from the land more than once and that GOD will keep His promise regarding His promise to Abraham concerning the land which Abraham has never actually inherited as promised.......yet.

Steko,

Will you inherit the land with Abraham and Moses?

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

LA

 

[tetelestai]

As usual, we see Preter-wrest Tet, the irrevocable covenant denier,

It was fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets.

refusing to acknowledge that Israel has been dispersed from the land more than once and that GOD will keep His promise regarding His promise to Abraham concerning the land

The land promise to Abraham was fulfilled.

(Joshua 21:43,45) So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there... Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.

which Abraham has never actually inherited as promised.......yet.

Read Hebrews 11, Abraham looked for the heavenly city, not land in the Middle East.

 

[steko]

It was fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets.



The land promise to Abraham was fulfilled.

(Joshua 21:43,45) So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there... Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.




Read Hebrews 11, Abraham looked for the heavenly city, not land in the Middle East.

Then, according to you, GOD altered His promise to Abraham.

Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Act 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

 

[steko]

Steko,

Will you inherit the land with Abraham and Moses?

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

LA

Whatever God has for me, it'll be good.

 

[JonahofAkron]

Matthew 24:34 means what it says.
You just do not understand what it says.


Exactly what I have been saying.

Mark 13:29 29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.​

It is obvious that "these things" happen before "it" happens.

Is Mark 13:30 the linchpin for his whole theology?