Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

[2003cobra]

My statements were meant to be broad. I specifically made them that way so we could progress in discussion. But once again, you wish to discuss the metaphorical bark of the tree rather than the forest that is the topic.

First, which biblical events in the NT are not substantiated? As I said before, either the Scriptures are reliable historical texts, or they aren't. They can't be both (which is ironically your issue with "staffs").

Second, Hebrews, based on early century reports, as well as internal evidence, alludes to Paul being the author. 2 Peter, based on early century reports, as well as internal evidence, alludes to Peter being the author. Do you with to posit any negating information to this point, or can we move on?

When does the NT disagree with the OT?

What contradictions are there in the NT?

You seem to really be a focused on irrelevant details.


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Why can’t you answer the questions on Mark and Luke?

Answer that, and we can go on to other errors.

If you are unwilling to honestly answer the very simple question of whether Jesus told the disciples that they could not take a staff or they could, why would I expect you to honestly deal with other errors or other topics?

I will be happy to discuss the other topics.

I understand your desire to avoid the questions that might show that the doctrine of inerrancy is false — possibly because it undermines some long-held beliefs. But aren’t Christians called to honesty and integrity?

So, did Jesus tell the disciples that they were not to take a staff (the plain and clear language of Luke) or did Jesus tell the disciples that they could take a staff (the plain and clear language of Mark)?

 

[2003cobra]

Lon writes:
OR the point was to not take extra things.

This is a denial of the text of Luke.

How do you justify your denial of the plain and clear text of the Bible?

Luke 9:1 Then Jesus called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal. 3 He said to them, "Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money—not even an extra tunic. 4 Whatever house you enter, stay there, and leave from there. 5 Wherever they do not welcome you, as you are leaving that town shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."

 

[glorydaz]

So you are unwilling to answer?

Is that because an honest answer would reveal your position on inerrancy is unsupportable?

I did answer. Like much of the Bible, it requires some actual searching.....masticate well before ingesting. You just want to swallow it whole and spit out what you can't get down. :baby:

 

[glorydaz]

Lon writes:
OR the point was to not take extra things.

This is a denial of the text of Luke.

How do you justify your denial of the plain and clear text of the Bible?

Luke 9:1 Then Jesus called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal. 3 He said to them, "Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money—not even an extra tunic. 4 Whatever house you enter, stay there, and leave from there. 5 Wherever they do not welcome you, as you are leaving that town shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."

Stuck on stupid. Not a good thing.

What you're exhibiting is spiritual pride. You get ourself a notion and refuse to look any further.

 

[2003cobra]

By the way, Lon, I am very interested in discussing the few other minor errors in the Bible — errors which do not undermine the validity and authority of the scriptures in any way but which do prove the doctrine of inerrancy false.

But I only want to discuss that with people who do not pretend the scriptures do not say what they actually say.

 

[2003cobra]

Stuck on stupid. Not a good thing.

What you're exhibiting is spiritual pride. You get ourself a notion and refuse to look any further.

And you won’t answer the questions.

 

[glorydaz]

And you won’t answer the questions.

Why? Because I don't see the point in baby walking you through this? :readthis:

And you won't even look at the Greek words that are used. I gave you an article, but you're so invested in being right (where have I seen this before?), that you won't even look further for facts.

Matthew uses the word ktaomi (to get or acquire). The sense of urgency is completely ignored by you in your desire to prove yourself correct. Mark uses the word airo which means to lift or take up. Different Greek words are used for the other items, as well. Anyone who was really interested in getting to the bottom of this would not be afraid to take into consideration the context, what Jesus expected the disciples to do when they got where they were going, and what their needs would be. And, anyone who was really interested in getting to the bottom of this would look at the words that were used by each author. He would look at whether the quotes were direct or whether it was just a basic telling of what happened.

YOU aren't interested in anything except being right. You aren't right. You have no interest in what the Scriptures are saying. Your only interest in finding fault. Be gone you foolish unbeliever. You're a waste of time and bandwidth. :wave:

 

[2003cobra]

Yes, I know the difference in Greek in Matthew. This is not news to me. I have known about it for years. I didn’t ask about Matthew. I pointed out the Mark/Luke error.

You are not the first person to wish I would focus on Matthew rather than on the clear contradiction between Mark and Luke.

So your bringing up Matthew is off topic.

And it is a technique you are using to avoid answering the question. And it is a transparent scheme.

So your introduction of Matthew is without merit.

It is clear you would rather change the question, so you don’t have to address the obvious difference between Mark and Luke. Could you do better?

Did Jesus tell the disciples not to take a staff(as Luke says) or did Jesus say they could take a staff (as Mark says)? Have you no answer?

 

[2003cobra]

Great. We agree. Christ is God.

So, do you believe what Christ said, taught, and did?

(I promise, I have a point to this; not being condescending or "witnessing")


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Why are you avoiding answering the questions about Mark and Luke?

Did Jesus tell the disciples not to take a staff(as Luke says) or did Jesus say they could take a staff (as Mark says)? Have you no answer?

 

[SabathMoon]

Did Jesus tell the disciples not to take a staff(as Luke says) or did Jesus say they could take a staff (as Mark says)? Have you no answer?

It seems like both happened.

 

[glorydaz]

I could do better. I could spoon feed you. I could do your work for you. I could take the time to actually compare the three authors.....all three. My "introduction of Matthew" was not without merit. You just won't take the time to consider it.

You can make the same lame claims about sandals and coats. Three authors, three different usages of words, but all saying the same thing. Grab only what you'll need and go.

 

[glorydaz]

Why are you avoiding answering the questions about Mark and Luke?

Did Jesus tell the disciples not to take a staff(as Luke says) or did Jesus say they could take a staff (as Mark says)? Have you no answer?

Did Jesus die for all or not?

 

[SabathMoon]

Did Jesus die for all or not?

It only matters if God would suffer us. Your idolatries blatantly that he cannot. Secondly, I don't think you are willing to put in the research.

 

[2003cobra]

It seems like both happened.

If you would like to say they are two different events, that is exceedingly unlikely but it is the only explanation that has any credibility at all.

Thanks, SabbathMoon

The people pretending there is no difference are simply damaging their own reputations.

When this Mark/Luke missionary journey topic is exhausted, I will ask about another set of instructions the Savior gave his disciples before an indisputably unique event. And they contradict too.

 

[2003cobra]

Did Jesus die for all or not?

This is off the topic. Are you introducing this question to avoid answering the question about the difference between Mark and Luke on the missionary journey instructions?

 

[Lon]

Lon writes:
OR the point was to not take extra things.

This is a denial of the text of Luke.

How do you justify your denial of the plain and clear text of the Bible?

Luke 9:1 Then Jesus called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal. 3 He said to them, "Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money—not even an extra tunic. 4 Whatever house you enter, stay there, and leave from there. 5 Wherever they do not welcome you, as you are leaving that town shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."

:sigh: Luke 10:1-4? Why do you insist on Luke 9 being the exact same sending? I've told you, Luke 10 says nothing of the staff. It was for this particular outing they weren't to bring a staff. Between Luke 9 and 10, if you read scriptures, you KNOW they went out at least twice (it was actually more than that). So what did you do? You went to a pagan website that lazily said there was a contradiction. :nono: They are ALWAYS lazy and pathetic and you, like Eve, are listening to the Serpent question God Genesis 3:1 Stop doing that. He is wicked. He 'seems' wise, but he is the worst of all. He is pathetic. Never listen to his lies or him trying to get you to question God. Don't let him in.

Lon writes:
OR the point was to not take extra things.

This is a denial of the text of Luke.

How do you justify your denial of the plain and clear text of the Bible?

Luke 9:1 Then Jesus called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal. 3 He said to them, "Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money—not even an extra tunic. 4 Whatever house you enter, stay there, and leave from there. 5 Wherever they do not welcome you, as you are leaving that town shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."

:sigh: Luke 10:1-4? Why do you insist on Luke 9 being the exact same sending? I've told you, Luke 10 says nothing of the staff. It was for this particular outing they weren't to bring a staff. Between Luke 9 and 10, if you read scriptures, you KNOW they went out at least twice (it was actually more than that). So what did you do? You went to a pagan website that lazily said there was a contradiction. :nono: They are ALWAYS lazy and pathetic and you, like Eve, are listening to the Serpent question God Genesis 3:1 Stop doing that. He is wicked. He 'seems' wise, but he is the worst of all. He is pathetic. Never listen to his lies or him trying to get you to question God. Don't let him in.

By the way, Lon, I am very interested in discussing the few other minor errors in the Bible — errors which do not undermine the validity and authority of the scriptures in any way but which do prove the doctrine of inerrancy false.

But I only want to discuss that with people who do not pretend the scriptures do not say what they actually say.

I'm not desirous of discussing each and every discrepancy from an atheist website. I do desire to put out fires of doubt among believers, but aren't a guy struggling with them so they aren't going to do anything. Your 'reason' for inquiry is to prove a point you think exists, rather than exercising a doubt that keeps you from God.

For me: In God, is NO darkness at all. You are suggesting there is a 'little' darkness to God's ability to convey truth to us. While 1 Corinthians 13 does say 'glass darkly' such imho, is explaining 'our' misconceptions, like your's here, rather than God's. Psalm 19 said 'perfect.' "Little inconsistencies" aren't perfect. Because of that, your theory causes an avalanche on a slippery slope and instead of trusting God's word, people start questioning it and denying it. Mark 9:42 Matthew 18:6 There is a huge problem if we cause a younger brother or sister to stumble in his/her faith.

 

[2003cobra]

I could do better. I could spoon feed you. I could do your work for you. I could take the time to actually compare the three authors.....all three. My "introduction of Matthew" was not without merit. You just won't take the time to consider it.

You can make the same lame claims about sandals and coats. Three authors, three different usages of words, but all saying the same thing. Grab only what you'll need and go.

‘All saying the same thing’
You know that isn’t true. Luke says Jesus said not to take a staff and Mark says the opposite.

So your contention is that Mark and Luke can contradict each other and you can fix them with Matthew?

No, you can’t spoon feed because you have no answer. That is why you refuse to answer the real question and just introduce other topics.

Did Jesus tell the disciples not to take a staff(as Luke says) or did Jesus say they could take a staff (as Mark says)? Have you no answer?

 

[2003cobra]

:sigh: Luke 10:1-4? Why do you insist on Luke 9 being the exact same sending? I've told you, Luke 10 says nothing of the staff. It was for this particular outing they weren't to bring a staff. Between Luke 9 and 10, if you read scriptures, you KNOW they went out at least twice (it was actually more than that). So what did you do? You went to a pagan website that lazily said there was a contradiction. :nono: They are ALWAYS lazy and pathetic and you, like Eve, are listening to the Serpent question God Genesis 3:1 Stop doing that. He is wicked. He 'seems' wise, but he is the worst of all. He is pathetic. Never listen to his lies or him trying to get you to question God. Don't let him in.

So are you abandoning the claim that “the point was not to take extra things?”

Instead, you are retreating to the singular position that it was a different missionary journey?

And you are recognizing that, if they are the same event, Luke contradicts Mark?

If so, we can move to the next error.

By the way, your false accusation that I found this on a pagan website is untrue. I noticed this in my own studies of the scriptures. Why would you make a false accusation against a brother? Satan is the father of lies, and, Lon, are you aware that just lied about me?

Actually, I noticed this discrepancy in the study that my wife and I did leading a small group at church.

By the way, Lon, if you will read the text of Mark 6 and Luke 9, you will see that they both refer to the sending of the twelve. Luke 10 is the sending of the 70. This further discredits the position to which you have retreated.

 

[glorydaz]

If you would like to say they are two different events, that is exceedingly unlikely but it is the only explanation that has any credibility at all.

Same event. Three different men reporting on the same event in their own words. :yawn:

The people pretending there is no difference are simply damaging their own reputations.

Only you would be concerned about a person's "reputation". :chuckle:

When this Mark/Luke missionary journey topic is exhausted, I will ask about another set of instructions the Savior gave his disciples before an indisputably unique event. And they contradict too.

Why not just start with Genesis? opcorn:

 

[glorydaz]

So are you abandoning the claim that “the point was not to take extra things?”

Instead, you are retreating to the singular position that it was a different missionary journey?

And you are recognizing that, if they are the same event, Luke contradicts Mark?

If so, we can move to the next error.

By the way, your false accusation that I found this on a pagan website is untrue. I noticed this in my own studies of the scriptures. Why would you make a false accusation against a brother? Satan is the father of lies, and, Lon, are you aware that just lied about me?

Actually, I noticed this discrepancy in the study that my wife and I did leading a small group at church.

You aren't a brother. You're a deceiver. I'm not sure who you think will fall for your claim....another poser perhaps. :chew: