Scientists baffled by a perfect example of Biblical kinds

musterion

Well-known member
http://www.economist.com/news/scien...w-animal-species-emerge-front-scientists-eyes

Whether the coywolf actually has evolved into a distinct species is debated. Jonathan Way, who works in Massachusetts for the National Park Service, claims in a forthcoming paper that it has. He thinks its morphological and genetic divergence from its ancestors is sufficient to qualify. But many disagree. One common definition of a species is a population that will not [and cannot] interbreed with outsiders. Since coywolves continue to mate with dogs and wolves, the argument goes, they are therefore not a species. But, given the way coywolves came into existence, that definition would mean wolves and coyotes should not be considered different species either—and that does not even begin to address whether domestic dogs are a species, or just an aberrant form of wolf.

In reality, “species” is a concept invented by human beings.

The answer to their confusion is found right there in Genesis 1:

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:25).
 

6days

New member
Musterion said:
But, given the way coywolves came into existence, that definition would mean wolves and coyotes should not be considered different species either—and that does not even begin to address whether domestic dogs are a species, or just an aberrant form of wolf.

In reality, “species” is a concept invented by human beings.

Good comments Musty.*

I think its long been believed that all dogs are descendants of just two of the dog kind which survived the flood. The Biblical model is that creatures can rapidly adapt or even speciate.... and generally through a loss of pre-existing genetic information. IOW, a mutant poodle is a descendant of wolves.*


It does not take millions and millions of years for organisms to adapt and change. Ask any plant or animal breeder... they will likely tell you that artificial selection is a process of eliminating unwanted traits. (Loss of genetic info).*


Rapid adaptation is evidence of our Creator.... programmed information allowing organisms to survive in diverse environments in the post flood world.*
 

6days

New member
God created

God created

JoseFly said:
6days said:
*

The Biblical model is that creatures can rapidly adapt or even speciate.

Via what mechanisms?


I'm glad you asked....

Evidence in the case of evolution versus creation generally better supports the creation account. However most people do not realize that. Most people have never been taught anything about the creation model. So evidence is always interpreted in light of the only model that they have been taught, the evolution model.

One example of the misunderstanding that most evolutionists have is regarding the ability of animals to quickly adapt to changing environments. Especially in the past, evolutionists thought change and speciation was a slow gradual process taking millions of years. The creationist model calls for the ability to rapidly change and even rapid speciation. Adaptation~ speciation usually happens when natural selection, 'selects' information that already exists in the genome. It is a process identified by a creationist (Edward Blyth) before Charles Darwin popularized the notion. It is a process similar to that of breeding animals... artificial selection. Selection is a process that usually eliminates unwanted information... It does not create new information.

As an example Darwin noted different species of finches in the Galapagos Islands. Evolutionists thought that these species have developed over the course of up to 5,000,000 years. That time frame was not based on science, but on the belief that everything evolved from a common ancestor over the course of millions and millions of years. Real science involving observation has now shown that these different species likely developed over the course of a few hundred years.

But even a few hundred years is a very long time. Speciation can happen over the course of just a few generations.... a matter of several years. Sticklefish have speciated / rapidly adapted in a very short time period.

Another example of rapid speciation (creationist model) comes from a study of guppies in Trinidad. One of the researchers speaking from the evolutionary perspective says " ‘The guppies adapted to their new environment in a mere four years—a rate of change some 10,000 to 10 million times faster than the average rates determined from the fossil record" IE. He says that the actual observed rate does not match the evolutionary assumptions of million of years in the fossil record.
science; Predator-free guppies take an evolutionary leap forward (Morell)

Rapid changes are bewildering to evolutionists..... but make perfect sense in the creationist model. God created most things with a very polytypic genome ( programmed variation) . They can change and adapt to various situations because of the wide array of info in their DNA.

Other examples of the ability of animals to adapt quickly:
Fruit flies grow longer wings...
... evolutionists are 'alarmed'
New Scientist 165 wrote:
"Flying out of control—alien species can evolve at an alarming rate"


Frogs seemingly 'evolve' in 1 generation...
... Evolutionists are surprised.
Science Daily wrote:
"However, the results show that in many cases, species with eggs and tadpoles placed in water seem to give rise directly to species with direct development, without going through the many seemingly intermediate steps that were previously thought to be necessary "
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0910142632.htm


And the best one showing.....
... Evolutionists are unscientific.
Bird species changes fast but without genetic differences (species-specific DNA markers)...
"Rapid phenotypic evolution during incipient speciation in a continental avian radiation" Proceedings of the Royal Society B.
The researchers suggest that the lack of genetic markers may mean the changes in these birds happened so fast that the genes haven't had a chance to catch up yet!!!!

That's a few of the many examples of adaptation and speciation that support the Biblical model, contradicting the evolutionist model of slow gradual change over millions of years.
 

rexlunae

New member
A basic type or model of organism created as distinct from other models, within which is the capacity for considerable variation (wolves, coyotes, mastiffs, chihuahuas, etc).

All of those are closely related examples (i.e., they had recent common ancestors). Is a Biblical "kind" in your understanding just a proxy for closely-related organisms, or does it include "similar-looking" things? Would you expect, under your model, to find a dol-fish, for instance? Or a cog (cat/dog)? How do you think the example of closely-related species interbreeding confounds evolution?
 

chair

Well-known member
...

One example of the misunderstanding that most evolutionists have is regarding the ability of animals to quickly adapt to changing environments. Especially in the past, evolutionists thought change and speciation was a slow gradual process taking millions of years. The creationist model calls for the ability to rapidly change and even rapid speciation. Adaptation~ speciation usually happens when natural selection, 'selects' information that already exists in the genome...

So you agree with the basic concept of evolution. You just think that the mechanism is different, and that it takes place extremely fast.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
So you agree with the basic concept of evolution. You just think that the mechanism is different, and that it takes place extremely fast.

Micro evolution is true. Polar bears/Grizzly Bears and Wolves/Coyotes have histories of becoming isolated breading populations and through genetic mutations and natural selection they have respectively have different pysical characteristics. But the bears and the K9s can breed because they are the same kind species. Gene mutations and natural selection do not cause Macro evolution, where kinds/species add or lose chromosome pairs and become new species/kinds.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Micro evolution is true.

According to 6days, macroevolution (evolution above the species level) is also not only true, but Biblical.

Polar bears/Grizzly Bears and Wolves/Coyotes have histories of becoming isolated breading populations and through genetic mutations and natural selection they have respectively have different pysical characteristics.

IOW, evolution.

But the bears and the K9s can breed because they are the same kind species.

Is "kind species" a new term or something?

Gene mutations and natural selection do not cause Macro evolution

6days says they do. Is he wrong?

where kinds/species add or lose chromosome pairs and become new species/kinds.

Are you saying "kind" = species?
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
According to 6days, macroevolution (evolution above the species level) is also not only true, but Biblical.



IOW, evolution.



Is "kind species" a new term or something?



6days says they do. Is he wrong?



Are you saying "kind" = species?

Species/Kinds, it all comes down to defintions and they are all over the map. The Bible calls dinstinctive animals kinds. Its makes sense as the article points out, that if animals can breed they are the same species or kind of distinctive animal.

Micro evolution is proven knowledge. Macro is an hypothesis with no evidence.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Species/Kinds, it all comes down to defintions and they are all over the map.

"Kind" has no definition.

The Bible calls dinstinctive animals kinds. Its makes sense as the article points out, that if animals can breed they are the same species or kind of distinctive animal.

Does that mean if they can't breed together they are different "kinds"?

Micro evolution is proven knowledge. Macro is an hypothesis with no evidence.

I'm sure that's what you believe, but that only matters to you.
 
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