ECT Salvation Obtained by Faith Only

[meshak]

That verse doesn't say "without works" and the next verse says:
10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Most churches follow OSAS doctrine. "Grace alone" or "faith alone" doctrine is based on OSAS doctrine. And Jerry is one of them. I don't know why they are arguing each other about it.

 

[way 2 go]

Romans is talking about the law of Moses.

law of sin
Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

We are not under the law of Moses anymore, but the law was changed to Christ’s law.
Heb. 7:11 11Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

ah that is the priesthood

Paul recognized he was under law Christ’s law.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

what do you think Christ's law is?

Which agrees with this passage.
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person

:nono:

not under the law . we walk by the spirit

Rom_7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[turbosixx]

law of sin
Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

What is the law of sin and death, but the law of Moses.
Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

not under the law . we walk by the spirit

Rom_7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

What is the old way of the written code?

 

[achduke]

What is the law of sin and death, but the law of Moses.
Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;




What is the old way of the written code?

The law of sin and death.

If you have the Spirit you are obeying the Spirit and the Spirit guides you. If not you are of flesh and following the law on your own which leads to death.


Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

 

[turbosixx]

If you have the Spirit you are obeying the Spirit and the Spirit guides you. If not you are of flesh and following the law on your own which leads to death.

How does the Spirit guide you?

 

[achduke]

How does the Spirit guide you?

Do you mean me personally or all people?

Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Jeremiah 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

 

[turbosixx]

Do you mean me personally or all people?

Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Jeremiah 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

I know you see all the varied versions of truth. While they all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit can that be so? I think not. I would suggest that the Holy Spirit guides us through God’s word. The apostles were told they would be guided into all truth and they wrote it down.

Heb. 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

John 14:25 "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.


The pronoun you is referring back to the apostles. Christians today misapply this passage and that's why we see the confusion. Instead of trying to understand what God's were is telling us, they go with their gut thinking it's the Holy Spirit guiding them.

 

[achduke]

I know you see all the varied versions of truth. While they all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit can that be so? I think not. I would suggest that the Holy Spirit guides us through God’s word. The apostles were told they would be guided into all truth and they wrote it down.

Heb. 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

John 14:25 "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.


The pronoun you is referring back to the apostles. Christians today misapply this passage and that's why we see the confusion. Instead of trying to understand what God's were is telling us, they go with their gut thinking it's the Holy Spirit guiding them.

I know the holy spirit guides many today. Is it the same proportion that the apostles received? No, but the holy spirit will come again in full.

 

[turbosixx]

I know the holy spirit guides many today. Is it the same proportion that the apostles received? No, but the holy spirit will come again in full.

We have almost everything the apostles received now in their written word.

Here is a personal experience of what I'm talking about. I was talking with a guy about appointing deacons. He mentioned they were going to appoint one that didn't have children. I told him he didn't meet the qualifications of a deacon.

12Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.

His comment was "if the Spirit is guiding you to appoint him". Why would the Spirit tell him something different than what he told the apostle Paul who wrote it down? Whom should we be believe?

 

[achduke]

We have almost everything the apostles received now in their written word.

Here is a personal experience of what I'm talking about. I was talking with a guy about appointing deacons. He mentioned they were going to appoint one that didn't have children. I told him he didn't meet the qualifications of a deacon.

12Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.

His comment was "if the Spirit is guiding you to appoint him". Why would the Spirit tell him something different than what he told the apostle Paul who wrote it down? Whom should we be believe?

Does that law say you must have children to be a Deacon or is it just saying if you have children you much be a good manager of them?

Here is where the Spirit can help you discern. Do I actively hear the Spirit telling me in a voice do this and do that? No. I do NOT hear the Spirit at that level yet. I do have feelings and once in a while hear a Word or Two. Also I have many personal dreams that are directed toward me.

 

[Tambora]

According to this passage all who "believe" in the Lord Jesus have eternal life:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life" (Jn.3:14-15; NASB).​

With these words in view how can anyone argue that salvation is not obtained by faith and faith alone?

Apparently, you do.

At 1 John 1:9 we are told to confess (acknowledge) our sins and then "the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:7).

Then after being cleansed from our sins then we are to keep ourselves holy by ceasing from sinning:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).​

That's not sounding like faith alone.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Leviticus 18
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.


I find it difficult to see how these enjoyed the same grace that we do today in this dispensation.

 

[turbosixx]

Does that law say you must have children to be a Deacon or is it just saying if you have children you much be a good manager of them?

Here is where the Spirit can help you discern. Do I actively hear the Spirit telling me in a voice do this and do that? No. I do NOT hear the Spirit at that level yet. I do have feelings and once in a while hear a Word or Two. Also I have many personal dreams that are directed toward me.

Tell me, are these word or dreams going to tell you anything that is not in scripture?

 

[achduke]

Tell me, are these word or dreams going to tell you anything that is not in scripture?

Most of them are for me personally and cleaning up myself. Many times I am reminded of someone I may have offended in the past. They are not scripture related. They guide me.

 

[turbosixx]

Leviticus 18
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.


I find it difficult to see how these enjoyed the same grace that we do today in this dispensation.

No one in the OT had what we have today.
Heb. 11:39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

 

[NWL]

According to this passage all who "believe" in the Lord Jesus have eternal life:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life" (Jn.3:14-15; NASB).​

With these words in view how can anyone argue that salvation is not obtained by faith and faith alone?

They can easily be argued. The only reason you see them as irrefutable is because you don't understand a basic concept.

Just because scripture says all you need to do is believe in the Christ to be saved doesn't literally mean all you need to do is believe in him. That's just plain stupid. If somebody asked you 'how can I get more muscular' and you told them 'go to the gym' of what benefit would it be if they went to a gym and stood their without doing any weights? How much muscle do you think they would gain? None! More so, how much more foolish would they sound if they turned around and said 'but you told me that if I wanted to get muscular I needed to go to the gym, that's what I did!'

Scripture does state that to be saved we must have faith yes, but to claim that all you need is simply put faith in Christ and that's it is to rob the Bible of its context both in the OT and NT. The context which I speak of is that of obedience. Both in the OT and NT it is made irrefutably clear that for one to be saved you must obey the commands of Christ or of God. Just as its stupid to assume the advice 'to go to the gym' literally means to only go to the gym and do nothing, is the same way its stupid to think that you only need to put faith in Jesus to be saved because of the statement "put faith in Jesus to be saved".

Below are four verse which plainly state or imply that Jesus expects obedience for salvation.

(Hebrews 5:9) "...And after he [Jesus] had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him..."

(Matthew 28:19,20) "...Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations...teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things...”

(Luke 6:46) “...Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say..?"

(Matthew 7:21) “...Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will..."

Salvation is Gods free gift, but like all free prizes today they come with terms and conditions, just like Gods relationship with the Israelite's.

(Deut 15:4) "...Jehovah will surely bless you in the land that Jehovah your God is giving you to possess as an inheritance, but only if you strictly obey the voice of Jehovah your God and carefully observe all this commandment that I am giving you today..."

JS I won't bother asking you to explain all the verse above but just one.

Based on Hebrews 5:9 is salvation based on faith alone or by obedience in Jesus?

Here's the verse again.... "[Jesus] became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him..."

 

[NWL]

We are created to do good works. We are not saved by good works. Read the text.

I agree with you, we are not saved by good works. But do you accept what the bible teaches in Heb 5:9, that Jesus saves the ones not who have faith in him but the ones that have faith and obey him.

Based on Hebrews 5:9 is salvation based on faith alone or by obedience in Jesus?

(Hebrews 5:9) "...[Jesus] became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him..."

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

The argument is what does faith and belief in constitute? Pisteo the Greek word used mostly has a meaning that implies trust which is in line with other scripture. Even the demons simply believe. Christ wants all of us no just our mental agreement that He is the way, the truth and the life, but also our hearts devotion because of our trust in Him, our thankfulness because of the love and Grace He showed us and our love realtionship and fellowship we have with Him.

 

[moparguy]

According to this passage all who "believe" in the Lord Jesus have eternal life:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life" (Jn.3:14-15; NASB).​

With these words in view how can anyone argue that salvation is not obtained by faith and faith alone?

TRADITION!

​

When you stop using the historical-grammatical method reading the bible so that you can get the result you want or believe, that's a sign your traditions are creeping in.

 

[way 2 go]

The argument is what does faith and belief in constitute? Pisteo the Greek word used mostly has a meaning that implies trust which is in line with other scripture. Even the demons simply believe. Christ wants all of us no just our mental agreement that He is the way, the truth and the life, but also our hearts devotion because of our trust in Him, our thankfulness because of the love and Grace He showed us and our love realtionship and fellowship we have with Him.

Jerry draws the line at demons, don't know why.


these people who believed but did not confess ,
in Jerry's mind they are saved.

Joh 12:42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue;