Sacrifices

Caino

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Banned
Isiah tried reforms like other prophets.

....who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts?



11 “The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?” says the Lord.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?
13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.
14 Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.
Your hands are full of blood!
16 Wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
stop doing wrong.

17 Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow.
18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.

“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.


God has always been a forgiving Father but the wealthy priest class held the common people in bondage.
 

Idolater

Well-known member
Isiah tried reforms like other prophets.

....who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts?



11 “The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?” says the Lord.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?
13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.
14 Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.
Your hands are full of blood!
16 Wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
stop doing wrong.

17 Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow.
Do you believe that doing these things with our democratic governments show that we obey this?
18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.

“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
This whole passage is a very beautiful way to describe how God looked forward to the New Covenant Mass, to succeed His Old Covenant. Even He hated it!
God has always been a forgiving Father but the wealthy priest class held the common people in bondage.
Well the priests aren't wealthy now, they don't even have children so they can't even have ministerial legacies, let alone build up familial wealth in the process.
 

Caino

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Banned
Do you believe that doing these things with our democratic governments show that we obey this?

This whole passage is a very beautiful way to describe how God looked forward to the New Covenant Mass, to succeed His Old Covenant. Even He hated it!

Well the priests aren't wealthy now, they don't even have children so they can't even have ministerial legacies, let alone build up familial wealth in the process.
Religion can still be lucrative but the sacrifices were never necessary anyway. Repentance and salvation has always been a matter of a sincere heart. Isiah's lament was an indication of how all the ritualistic sacrifices in the world doesn't necessarily translate into a changed heart and reestablishment of right relations with God.
 

Idolater

Well-known member
Religion can still be lucrative but the sacrifices were never necessary anyway. Repentance and salvation has always been a matter of a sincere heart. Isiah's lament was an indication of how all the ritualistic sacrifices in the world doesn't necessarily translate into a changed heart and reestablishment of right relations with God.
Along with the Mass being a real sacrifice due to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, Scripture talks about that the choices we make also form a sacrifice, the living sacrifice of our lives.

Romans 12
" 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

And where there is some scriptures devoted to the Eucharist, there is A LOT of emphasis on how we are to live our lives in the Bible.
 

Caino

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Banned
Along with the Mass being a real sacrifice due to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, Scripture talks about that the choices we make also form a sacrifice, the living sacrifice of our lives.

Romans 12
" 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

And where there is some scriptures devoted to the Eucharist, there is A LOT of emphasis on how we are to live our lives in the Bible.
The atonement theory that developed after Jesus left asserts that the Father was technically incapable of forgiving sin unless his blameless Son was offered up as a substitute to pay mans theoretical sin debt. Apparently it satisfys the insurmountable “law of sin and death”. Some claim this plan predated the creation of the world. It’s a philosophical assault upon the free will of God.

Jesus was divinely brilliant in allowing his followers to believe what they needed to believe about him in order to provide a bridge from Israel’s rejection and the Gentile worlds adoption.
 
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Lon

Well-known member
You lack the courage to defend the character of God.
Except for the one in my own image? God is a being, not an idea or concept. You nor Sadler GET to force God, to fit your molds. That is EXACTLY what you've done. "God" for you, is who you decided, which is an idea, an idol.
In the original Gospel Jesus taught salvation by Faith and forgiveness by receiving it from God the Father, his Father our Father. Of course that angered the lucrative institution of Judaism.
Overstated. Most of the conflicts between Jesus were about their own made-up ideas vs. Jesus. They were being replaced, but Jesus used Scripture to counter their bad behavior. You and Sadler rewrote it. Jesus said salvation was of the Jews. It is a baby/bathwater issue and you and Sadler and Joseph Smith threw out the baby, the whole thing, for something 'you prefer.'
Its you who measure the possibilities of the goodness of God by your own limitations and then hate on others who can see what you are blind to..
You aren't hated on, you are corrected. Because you are two-dimensional in your reasoning skills, you bought into Sadler and (WRONGLY) see my posts as 'hate.' They are not. Jesus said that the Samaritan woman HAD to worship is Spirit AND truth, Caino.
Certain forms of religion and traditionalism are actually a clever diversion from having a personal relationship with God, a life dedicated to seeking and doing the will of God. Believers are actually supposed to change instead of just keep saying sorry, offering sacrificial bribes or hanging onto the "theory" that sacrificing Jesus back to God paid a debt for you. The cross represents a far more mature act of Love for mankind then you give it credit for.
A personal relationship has to be on HIS terms, Caino. I cannot just make up a god in my head and slap 'God' on it and have a relationship simply because I don't like the One that actually exists. Necessarily, we meet a 'person' on his/her terms. You don't like me either, see my posts as 'hate' when I'm trying to tell you something. It is JUST like Jesus meeting Pharisees or Samaritans. We have to be corrected. Jesus used scriptures, didn't reject them.
I only reject the untrue parts of the Bible.
See above, we don't get to rewrite simply by 'our rationalized sensibilities.' We are men, who make a LOT of mistakes. We get to rather try and figure out what God was saying. Scripture certainly says God is loving and compassionate, but to simply throw out Sodom and Gomorrah because we 'don't' like it and it doesn't fit our expectation of loving and compassionate' is simply creating a fantasy world, a god we simply made-up. I don't get to meet a made-up god at the end of life. Why would that even be a great comfort to you? A god you preferred rather than the One Who is?
Its always been obvious to me even as a child that the people who rejected and killed Jesus were capable of exaggerating their own history. You are forced to believe things because they are in the scripture not because they sound true.
BUT it forces one to wrestle with a God who exists, like Jacob. It doesn't mean I have to believe God was unloving. I believe God had to deal with extreme barbarism, even among Jews. Men of flesh act like animals and live not as Spiritual beings. We were born enslaved to flesh, only knowing flesh. Jesus came to reunite us to the Father, remade as Spiritual beings.
 

Caino

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Banned
Blasphemy will not be tolerated on TOL.
Except for the one in my own image? God is a being, not an idea or concept. You nor Sadler GET to force God, to fit your molds. That is EXACTLY what you've done. "God" for you, is who you decided, which is an idea, an idol.

Overstated. Most of the conflicts between Jesus were about their own made-up ideas vs. Jesus. They were being replaced, but Jesus used Scripture to counter their bad behavior. You and Sadler rewrote it. Jesus said salvation was of the Jews. It is a baby/bathwater issue and you and Sadler and Joseph Smith threw out the baby, the whole thing, for something 'you prefer.'

You aren't hated on, you are corrected. Because you are two-dimensional in your reasoning skills, you bought into Sadler and (WRONGLY) see my posts as 'hate.' They are not. Jesus said that the Samaritan woman HAD to worship is Spirit AND truth, Caino.

A personal relationship has to be on HIS terms, Caino. I cannot just make up a god in my head and slap 'God' on it and have a relationship simply because I don't like the One that actually exists. Necessarily, we meet a 'person' on his/her terms. You don't like me either, see my posts as 'hate' when I'm trying to tell you something. It is JUST like Jesus meeting Pharisees or Samaritans. We have to be corrected. Jesus used scriptures, didn't reject them.

See above, we don't get to rewrite simply by 'our rationalized sensibilities.' We are men, who make a LOT of mistakes. We get to rather try and figure out what God was saying. Scripture certainly says God is loving and compassionate, but to simply throw out Sodom and Gomorrah because we 'don't' like it and it doesn't fit our expectation of loving and compassionate' is simply creating a fantasy world, a god we simply made-up. I don't get to meet a made-up god at the end of life. Why would that even be a great comfort to you? A god you preferred rather than the One Who is?

BUT it forces one to wrestle with a God who exists, like Jacob. It doesn't mean I have to believe God was unloving. I believe God had to deal with extreme barbarism, even among Jews. Men of flesh act like animals and live not as Spiritual beings. We were born enslaved to flesh, only knowing flesh. Jesus came to reunite us to the Father, remade as Spiritual beings.
The God of the Old Testament is a shadow of the image of those who wrote it. Their God acts as they would act! They seem to be hearing the voice of God telling them to slaughter men, women and children when really they are hearing their own ideas. Your circle would tell you that to question them is actually Satan's doing!

You aren't allowed to question the historic claims of the Israelites nor their portrayal of God because they have convinced you that to question them is to question God and that's a lack of faith! Your arguments don't come from the superlative Father demonstrated in the triumphant life of Christ, it comes from the need to deny your own God given sensibilities when defending the claims of those who rejected that Father and killed his Son! (children of the devil according to Jesus) That is why you have to "wrestle with God" to try to figure out what its saying because it didn't make a lot of sense to begin with. To me it would be wrestling with people who developed a nationalist, racist, chosen people delusion trying to figure why things weren't going according to their own expectations?!

While the Israelites drew from material that was true and has great depth of meaning when recasting their ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction, the final product isn't deep at all. The Father reveled by Christ simply discredits it! He didn't need to directly attack it, his truth, beauty and goodness trump the portrayal of God in parts of the OT as well as the false expectations of an exclusively Jewish Messiah. "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

The Bible represents layers of mans own false expectations, Gods response followed by more speculation and false expectations.

Sodom and Gomora were destroyed by a meteoric anomaly. In that age every natural event was seen as Gods direct intervention. So they wrote in retrospective that God destroyed the cities. The problem is that there are numerous such cities all over the world, over all time and today as well.

Sodom and Gomorrah? Evidence That a Cosmic Impact Destroyed a Biblical City in the Jordan Valley
By UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA - SANTA BARBARA SEPTEMBER 20, 2021
 

Lon

Well-known member
The God of the Old Testament is a shadow of the image of those who wrote it. Their God acts as they would act!

It doesn't, didn't matter to me at that point: ALL that mattered is whether Jesus quoted them or not. Shoot, even Sadler, Kellogg, and company 'quoted' the Old Testament, Caino. THINK! You simply must learn to actually think!
They seem to be hearing the voice of God telling them to slaughter men, women and children when really they are hearing their own ideas.
Because you say so? :doh: You've undone the entire power of God and His ability to answer prayer at that point Caino! Do you REALIZE you don't think things out to the end very well?
Your circle would tell you that to question them is actually Satan's doing!
You went to a different church than I. I was taught to wrestle through it, like Jacob did. You do baby out, keep some bathwater and toys and miss the whole thing for such simplicity. So did Sadler and Kellogg. They just weren't brilliant people.
You aren't allowed to question the historic claims of the Israelites nor their portrayal of God because they have convinced you that to question them is to question God and that's a lack of faith! Your arguments don't come from the superlative Father demonstrated in the triumphant life of Christ, it comes from the need to deny your own God given sensibilities when defending the claims of those who rejected that Father and killed his Son! (children of the devil according to Jesus) That is why you have to "wrestle with God" to try to figure out what its saying because it didn't make a lot of sense to begin with. To me it would be wrestling with people who developed a nationalist, racist, chosen people delusion trying to figure why things weren't going according to their own expectations?!
To one point I agree: I'm arrogant. Even so, as far as my I.Q. will take me, I do agree that 'my' sense of right and wrong is human and not THE standard. Then along comes Caino, who doesn't have an 140 I.Q. who will try and tell me his 'sensibility' is not only better than mine, but better than anybody else's too. : Plain: The thing that makes God, God, is that He doesn't answer to mere finite created beings. We, rather, and rightly, answer to Him. "Will the creature argue with His Creator?" But you do. If you knew your bible better, a lot of this would all sound like scriptures I'm quoting.
While the Israelites drew from material that was true and has great depth of meaning when recasting their ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction,
Ah, a man without 'miraculous' faith. Sad, but yeah, I see where you are coming from: You are incredulous out of the gate. God has LITERALLY and miraculously answered many of my prayers. You don't have any room for such 'miraculous fiction.' : Plain: Either God exists, or I'm a magician (I'm not a magician).
the final product isn't deep at all. The Father reveled by Christ simply discredits it!
It is a meaningless platitude IF Jesus' words mean anything to you. You, Caino, elevate what Sadler and Kellogg say over what Jesus says, just like the Mormons do with Joseph Smith. ANYBODY reading Jesus first, will be a different kind of person. "He who has the Son, has life." "He who does not have the Son, DOES NOT have life."
He didn't need to directly attack it, his truth, beauty and goodness trump the portrayal of God in parts of the OT as well as the false expectations of an exclusively Jewish Messiah.
Incorrect: He corrected them where they were wrong, BECAUSE it was important Caino! One would think you've read the UB "to the neglect" of Jesus' words. You know, like you were following somebody else but Jesus at that point! Yes, its an accusation: You are woefully ingnorant of the Red Letters.
"Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."
Matthew 23:33-39 Point?
The Bible represents layers of mans own false expectations, Gods response followed by more speculation and false expectations.

Sodom and Gomora were destroyed by a meteoric anomaly.
Jesus, you know, God, disagrees with you:
Luk 17:26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man.
Luk 17:27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building,
Luk 17:29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—
Luk 17:30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife. Matthew 10:15 Luke 10:12
2 Peter 2:6-9
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds)

But no, Caino has no room in his mind, but for what he figures out. None of this listening to smarter or 'God.' :(
In that age every natural event was seen as Gods direct intervention.
Rubbish. You don't believe God does miracles today either. You CANNOT believe God answers my prayers directly. Sad but you've a carnal skeptical mind and it isn't good: It literally declares, itself, what is true and will not believe. Thomas was like that too btw: "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe." You and I are of the 'seen' crowd. I have seen. You won't. The rest will believe simply because God is real to them even if they never see what I have or you have not. You and I have lost a blessing of belief unseen. 1 Peter 1:8
So they wrote in retrospective that God destroyed the cities.
Rationalizations. Jesus said it happened. You and I will stand before Him.
The problem is that there are numerous such cities all over the world, over all time and today as well.
Pompeii didn't have a prophecy. Nobody made up stories. Do you even realize your arguments remove the hand of God from all existence? That you are just an evolutionary accident? There is no interaction of any kind of God in your world.
Jesus' words likely won't mean a thing to you: Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
 
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