Reconciled to God How?

[thborn]

Please consider carefully the scriptures and I hope I have helped.

As I am still in a stage of grace forming understanding, having only really turned to Jesus some months ago (after a decade or two during which I at times swept Christian faith under the rug), I realize need to allow God’s grace to mould understanding as I go on a crash course through all the ‘-isms’ of Christianity I had never paid attention to.

God sometimes rends our hearts with difficult teachings and I hope to give God all the glory by never trying to limit his sovereignty in my mind. At the same time I realize how much evil we could do if we fail to understand His love, how much God hates what is evil but loves the sinner who believes. How there is rejoicing in heaven over what is good and what is possible to redeem in God’s creation.

One thing God’s grace shows is that it is very important to keep one’s heart towards God. Otherwise one can be trapped into selfishly loving an interpretation of Scripture that is actually just one’s own or that of some human group and thus ultimately evil.

The sole saving power of God’s grace and Jesus’ blood is a great truth and a major dividing line between those are perishing and those called to perfection. Only the elect will be saved, only they are the Church (at least of the current dispensation, I guess). I believe they exist among ‘Calvinists’ and ‘Born agains’ and “Methodists’ and still other groups. These elect come to know Jesus through the Gospels, if they haven’t already, and love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love (Ephesians 6:24). They will do acts of charity and they will persevere.

I think a belief that all are predestined is at least in some sense true and Paul wants to remind us of this. The themes of predestination or at least of the elect are woven into Scripture. But the contrast between the Jews and the Gentiles is very central and the Dispensationalist argument (at least among some Dispensationalists, I think?) that Romans is not entirely written to those of one dispensation is something I will prayerfully consider.

 

[God's Truth]

As I am still in a stage of grace forming understanding, having only really turned to Jesus some months ago (after a decade or two during which I at times swept Christian faith under the rug), I realize need to allow God’s grace to mould understanding as I go on a crash course through all the ‘-isms’ of Christianity I had never paid attention to.

God sometimes rends our hearts with difficult teachings and I hope to give God all the glory by never trying to limit his sovereignty in my mind. At the same time I realize how much evil we could do if we fail to understand His love, how much God hates what is evil but loves the sinner who believes. How there is rejoicing in heaven over what is good and what is possible to redeem in God’s creation.

One thing God’s grace shows is that it is very important to keep one’s heart towards God. Otherwise one can be trapped into selfishly loving an interpretation of Scripture that is actually just one’s own or that of some human group and thus ultimately evil.

The sole saving power of God’s grace and Jesus’ blood is a great truth and a major dividing line between those are perishing and those called to perfection. Only the elect will be saved, only they are the Church (at least of the current dispensation, I guess). I believe they exist among ‘Calvinists’ and ‘Born agains’ and “Methodists’ and still other groups. These elect come to know Jesus through the Gospels, if they haven’t already, and love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love (Ephesians 6:24). They will do acts of charity and they will persevere.

I think a belief that all are predestined is at least in some sense true and Paul wants to remind us of this. The themes of predestination or at least of the elect are woven into Scripture. But the contrast between the Jews and the Gentiles is very central and the Dispensationalist argument (at least among some Dispensationalists, I think?) that Romans is not entirely written to those of one dispensation is something I will prayerfully consider.

Did you read what I said about the scripture from Romans you misunderstand?

 

[thborn]

Did you read what I said about the scripture from Romans you misunderstand?

Romans 1:20-22 seems to be about mankind in general after the Fall. Romans 9, 10, and 11, are indeed about the Jews and Gentiles primarily as peoples.
But doesn't Romans 8 come before this change of subject? Romans 8:29-30 which contains the words "foreknew" and "predestined" and "called" and "justified" and glorified" is about Christian believers. And actually, looking at the notes in one of my Bibles tells me the same thing.

I think beloved57 and similar commenters deserve more respect and acknowledgement to the degree that they are trying to honor God's love. If I understand right, they're giving God the glory for converting sinners, and telling us not to get puffed up and pat ourselves on the back for having believed. It is not hard to see that believing is a work, similar to, say, giving a helping hand to a starving refugee. When you truly believe you also give; you give up your 'freedom' to believe unchristian things and to be enslaved by a Christian lifestyle, consumerist pleasures, etc. And so, to give the most glory to God, I wouldn't say that believing is something I did, but something God did through grace and the blood of Christ.

(On the other hand, I don't think there's a scientific diagram showing how grace and faith work in the conversion of the sinner. Some of the Calvinists maybe won't like me for that phrasing or statement, and I realize I won't be accepted by them.)

Huge epiphany! I now understand that the catalyst for this thread, Romans 5, is about emphasizing how Christ was willing to die for someone who not only started out an enemy but wasn't even going to turn to goodness at all in the future. That takes some gutsy love!

Another point...and if God knew and predestined those who love him (Romans 8-28) long ago, by my understanding of Romans 8:29-30, then those who love him have logically always been saved and have been made perfect....in my view, in some current sense or looking ahead to the future.

So predestination is not incompatible with God's love...but it seems to me that total determinism is. If total determinism were true, then there would be no such thing as good or evil.
God does not approve of evil things, so total determinism is false.

 

[God's Truth]

Romans 1:20-22 seems to be about mankind in general after the Fall. Romans 9, 10, and 11, are indeed about the Jews and Gentiles primarily as peoples.
But doesn't Romans 8 come before this change of subject? Romans 8:29-30 which contains the words "foreknew" and "predestined" and "called" and "justified" and glorified" is about Christian believers. And actually, looking at the notes in one of my Bibles tells me the same thing.

Paul is explaining that the Jews are not cut off forever. Read Romans 11 and maybe it will come to you.

I think beloved57 and similar commenters deserve more respect and acknowledgement to the degree that they are trying to honor God's love. If I understand right, they're giving God the glory for converting sinners, and telling us not to get puffed up and pat ourselves on the back for having believed.

They are brutal to people who don't believe as they do.

They also preach against obeying God. How does that make sense to you?

The Faith Alone group and the Calvinists have a competition on who doesn't obey God.

The Faith Alone group says we only have to believe and not obey..

The Calvinists say we don't believe or obey.

The Faith Alone group says but our believing isn't really obeying.


It is madness. We are supposed to obey Jesus to get saved and to stay saved.

The Faith Alone group will say I am lying because they claim they do obey, they say they obey by not obeying.

The Calvinists say we can't obey.


Jesus: Believe and obey.
The Faith Alone group: I will do nothing but believe.
The Calvinist: I can't believe or obey you---make me.

It is not hard to see that believing is a work, similar to, say, giving a helping hand to a starving refugee. When you truly believe you also give;

No not everyone who believes also does a right action.

you give up your 'freedom' to believe unchristian things and to be enslaved by a Christian lifestyle, consumerist pleasures, etc. And so, to give the most glory to God, I wouldn't say that believing is something I did, but something God did through grace and the blood of Christ.

You are so confused about obeying that you are afraid to obey and to say you did.

(On the other hand, I don't think there's a scientific diagram showing how grace and faith work in the conversion of the sinner. Some of the Calvinists maybe won't like me for that phrasing or statement, and I realize I won't be accepted by them.)

Huge epiphany! I now understand that the catalyst for this thread, Romans 5, is about emphasizing how Christ was willing to die for someone who not only started out an enemy but wasn't even going to turn to goodness at all in the future. That takes some gutsy love!

Well almost.. the Gentiles who didn't obey God and come into the covenant with Him and get circumcised...Jesus saved them too and didn't make them get circumcised first.

Another point...and if God knew and predestined those who love him (Romans 8-28) long ago, by my understanding of Romans 8:29-30, then those who love him have logically always been saved and have been made perfect....in my view, in some current sense or looking ahead to the future.

That is Calvinistic nonsense. We are not saved before we are saved.

So predestination is not incompatible with God's love...but it seems to me that total determinism is. If total determinism were true, then there would be no such thing as good or evil.
God does not approve of evil things, so total determinism is false.

Again, the plan for salvation through Jesus was predestined and the Jews are the ones God foreknew on earth they were His people. God didn't cut them off from getting saved. As Paul says, he is proof that God didn't cut off Jews forever because he is a Jew and got saved.

 

[thborn]

Jesus: Believe and obey.

True, Jesus says this. But don't you think it could be that later the Spirit reveals that Grace comes first?

The Faith Alone group: I will do nothing but believe.
The Calvinist: I can't believe or obey you---make me.

Yeah, but isn't there something poignant in that human helplessness?

No not everyone who believes also does a right action.

You are so confused about obeying that you are afraid to obey and to say you did.

It's really about grace and believing and obeying. All of them. Calvinists seem to get a lot of things about grace right. (But I'm not convinced that if one goes to a church with Calvinist leanings one is super likely to find a whole group of the elect.)

I hope that God's revelation will draw true Believers together more and more so that the Church of the elect will be more visual with more obvious leaders, bishops. We know the Body of Christ had strong leaders in Scripture. But maybe that is not how it will happen, at least in this time.

That is Calvinistic nonsense. We are not saved before we are saved.

What else can chosen mean? Yes, it can be difficult to reconcile how the Gospel teaches that the elect are chosen but also exhorts the reader to believe, but it makes sense on God's higher terms. There also seems to be a tension between the truth of predestination and how Believers actually experience the journey of the life of the elect while on this earth.

Again, the plan for salvation through Jesus was predestined and the Jews are the ones God foreknew on earth they were His people. God didn't cut them off from getting saved. As Paul says, he is proof that God didn't cut off Jews forever because he is a Jew and got saved.

I agree with all that. I am just trying to open myself up to the entirety of God's Word...meaning every passage about predestination, every passage about salvation, every passage about endurance, and perhaps most importantly, every passage about grace and every passage that about Jesus Christ. You've done good in highlighting some passages that folks have ignored, but I'm not convinced about some of your teaching.

Anyway, I thank you for a lot of your comments that have helped me understand what these issues are.

 

[God's Truth]

True, Jesus says this. But don't you think it could be that later the Spirit reveals that Grace comes first?

So you are saying that it could help someone get saved when they obey, but then later it is revealed that one didn't have to obey?!

That is makes no sense.

What exactly do you think grace is?

Grace is that we don't have to do the purification works of the law day in and day out just to go to the temple to be near God's Spirit.

Grace is that Jesus' blood washes us and purifies us and we become the temple of God's Spirit.

Yeah, but isn't there something poignant in that human helplessness?

No way, for it is lame defiance to the honor of one's Lord and Father.

It interferes with one getting saved and knowing God.

It's really about grace and believing and obeying. All of them. Calvinists seem to get a lot of things about grace right. (But I'm not convinced that if one goes to a church with Calvinist leanings one is super likely to find a whole group of the elect.)

God elects those who believe and obey Him.

I hope that God's revelation will draw true Believers together more and more so that the Church of the elect will be more visual with more obvious leaders, bishops. We know the Body of Christ had strong leaders in Scripture. But maybe that is not how it will happen, at least in this time.

There are no more churches as in the New Testament times.

We don't have to go to church. The churches nowadays teach falseness anyway.

The churches in the New Testament times weren't expensive buildings with big utilities bills.

The churches were in people's homes.

The churches didn't have those in it who have not dealt with their sin; they were thrown out.

The churches nowadays don't even know a thing about most of their parishioners, and they don't usually throw anyone out.

What else can chosen mean? Yes, it can be difficult to reconcile how the Gospel teaches that the elect are chosen but also exhorts the reader to believe,

God tells us how the elect are chosen.

Luke 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.

Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

1 John 2:3 And by this we may know that we know Him--if we obey His commands.

John 8:31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said,“If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.



That is how to be an a chosen and elect.

but it makes sense on God's higher terms. There also seems to be a tension between the truth of predestination and how Believers actually experience the journey of the life of the elect while on this earth.

Satan ensnares people to preach false doctrines.

Teaching false doctrines interferes with people getting saved and knowing God.

I agree with all that. I am just trying to open myself up to the entirety of God's Word...meaning every passage about predestination, every passage about salvation, every passage about endurance, and perhaps most importantly, every passage about grace and every passage that about Jesus Christ. You've done good in highlighting some passages that folks have ignored, but I'm not convinced about some of your teaching.

Anyway, I thank you for a lot of your comments that have helped me understand what these issues are.

Thank you and don't give up in knowing for yourself. God tells us how to know for ourselves, and it is by obeying Jesus.