Real Science Friday: Mathematics: Is God Silent? by James Nickel

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian asks:
God says that we are justified by works and faith. Do you accept that, or have you modified it to suit your own preferences?

(Tom apparently does not)

Then you are not willing to accept God's word. Which is all we need to know.

Barbarian on what Paul tells us:
God's grace allows us to be saved through faith. His grace is not our own doing but a gift from God.

Then why don't you accept it?

Tom, all you have to do to accept it, is let God be God. You'll have to let go of this idea that you can grant or withdraw salvation. But isn't that worth eternal life with Him?

Can you give me some Biblical support for Purgatory?

Paul writes:
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Christians are told to pray for others. And this predates Christianity; the Israelites prayed for the dead. Why would you pray for a person who had already either been saved or condemned? In neither case could your prayers help such a person.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

So some things are forgiven in the world to come, although, as Paul says, through a fire.

Barbarian notes what God says:
You've confused this with our justification. His grace allows us to be justified by works and faith both, as the Bible says.

Wrong.

I can believe you or I can believe God. Not much of a choice, really.

 

[TeeJay]

=The Barbarian;2727700]Barbarian asks:
God says that we are justified by works and faith. Do you accept that, or have you modified it to suit your own preferences?

(Tom apparently does not)

Then you are not willing to accept God's word. Which is all we need to know.

Barbarian, it's okay to accept an obvious truth on ToL. I don't believe Knght has any prohibitions against doing so.

If you had read my post carefully, I answered this. So I will ask you: To whom did James write his letter? It was not to you. It was to the Twelve Tribes that were scattered. Which tribe do you belong to?

Paul writes just the opposite. If you came into his church and said the above, he would castrate you. So, if what Paul teaches and what James teaches is contradictory, then you have to choose which one you want to be under, James or Paul. Now if you place yourself under the Covenant of Circumcision, then you have get circumcised, keep the law, feasts, Sabbaths. Violation of these laws is a death penalty. But God will not kill you, because the Dispensation of the Gospel of Circumcision is temporarily on hold until Jesus comes back to Israel. Paul is your apostle whether you like it or not. I did not make up these rules; God did. You do agree that God cut off Israel (of which Peter was a citizen)? If God cut off Israel, then you can't possible be under the Gospel of Circumcision. Can you see that?

Barbarian on what Paul tells us:
God's grace allows us to be saved through faith. His grace is not our own doing but a gift from God.

I will ask again. If it is a gift from God, then why don't you accept it? Why are you arguing that "grace is not our own doing"? That's a straw horse if ever I've seen one. How in the world can anyone offer grace except God?

If it is a gift from God, then why do you have to work for it? Please explain that to me. If you have to work for it, it's no longer a gift. Barbarian, you're making me crazy with this irrationality. I know you're smarter than that. You must be doing it to test my sanity.

Tom, all you have to do to accept it, is let God be God. You'll have to let go of this idea that you can grant or withdraw salvation. But isn't that worth eternal life with Him?

I can't withhold salvation from anyone. I can withhold trying to preach the gospel if someone does not want to hear it--which I am close to doing right now.

"Let God be God." What in the world does that mean? What you need to do is read all of Paul's letters. As I recall from by former Catholic masses, the priest would read about one or two sentences from Paul. And they had no idea what Paul was saying.

"Eternal life with Him." You will not spend eternity with Him. Unless you make the confession of faith in Romans 10:9-10, you are not saved. If you don't know you are saved, you are not saved. I asked you if you were going to heaven. You answered that you were going to Purgatory "because you have not committed a mortal sin." If that's you reason for salvation, then it is not based on Jesus Christ's sacrifice for you. It is based on your own works. If you could get to heaven by your own works, then Jesus Christ would not have to go to the Cross for you. Why can't you understand this?

Paul writes:
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Now your quoting Paul after arguing against Paulism. Why Paul and not Peter? Actually, Peter could lose his salvation. He had to "endure to the end" because he was under the Gospel of Circumcision (law and works). And if he gave it his best shot, God could add a little grace to his works and say, "Well done, good and faithful servant." In the Body of Christ, under the Gospel of Uncircumcision, you can's lose your salvation because after to make you confession of faith in Romans 10:9-10, the Holy Spirit baptizes you into the Body where you are sealed. And you are then a member of Christ's Body. "If we are unfaithful, He will remain faithful because He can't deny Himself."

What you quoted above is the awards banquet that Paul speaks of where our works will be tested by fire. This is not the Great White Throne Judgment where the wicked are judged. It has nothing to do with salvation.

You are not yet a member of His Body. Members of Christ's Body do not go to Purgatory. Paul wrote, "To be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord." Non-members of the Body go straight to Hell to await the Great White Throne udgment.

Christians are told to pray for others. And this predates Christianity; the Israelites prayed for the dead. Why would you pray for a person who had already either been saved or condemned? In neither case could your prayers help such a person.

Isralites, priotr to the Cross were somewhat justified in praying for the dead. (But they still should not have done so.) Why? Because the dead did not go to heaven. The righteous went to Abraham's bosom to await Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross. While Jesus' body lay in the grave (not corrupting), He in the Spirit, went to Abraham's bosom and "lead captives free."

Abraham's bosom was in Sheol. Sheol was divided by a deep gulf. On one side were the wicked (where Lazarus' nemisis the rich man went. The righteous (Moses, Jacob, et. al.) went to Abraham's bosom. Recall that Jesus said that "no man had ascended to heaven except the Son of Man (Jesus). After the Cross, those in Abraham's bosom went to heaven.

Actually, praying for the dead is not a good idea. The Mormons and the JW's do it. After you die your faith is sealed. Paying the priests to pray the dead out of Purgatory is repugnant beyond measure. It's simply a way to take money from grieving family members. When one dies as a non-member of the Body of Christ, his or her faith is sealed--go to hell with no get-out-of-jail card.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Let me explain this to you. For the Jews, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was the unforgiveable sin. Why. Jesus said that if you reject Me, you also reject the Father who sent Me. Israel rejected Jesus when He walked among them. Then Israel rejected their risen Messiah. That's rejection of two Persons of the Triune God. There's one Person of the Triune God left to reject--the Holy Spirit. When they stoned Stephen, that was a total rejection of God--God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. If you read Stephen's oration to the Jews, he is speaking "irresistible wisdom" under the power of the Holy Spirit. The Jewish leadership could not even respond to his wisdom, so Acts says. What did they do? They tore their clothes and stoned him. But they were really stoning the Holy Spirit. This is why this is an unforgiveable sin for Israel. Do we in the Body of Christ have any unforgiveable sins? Not according to Paul. We would have no doctrinal disputes if it weren't for that troublesome little Jew.

So some things are forgiven in the world to come, although, as Paul says, through a fire.

No! No! A thousand times No! None will be forgiven in the the world to come. When you accept Christ (Rom. 10:9-10), you are forgiven of all your sins, past, presnet and future. If you fail to accept Him, you go straight to Hell to await judgment. Although unbelievers are condemned already, their judgment will show them why they are condemned to leave them "without excuse."

There is no judgment for members of the Body of Christ. All members of His Body go straight to heaven. All non-members go straight to hell.

What you referenced above is not a salvation judgment. It is an awards banquet.

Barbarian notes what God says:
You've confused this with our justification. His grace allows us to be justified by works and faith both, as the Bible says.

If you are justified by works, then it is no longer grace. I'm about to pull the plug on you and move on. I just don't believe you are capable of softening your heart on this. I will await your next reply.

God knows I've given it my best shot.

Tom






I can believe you or I can believe God. Not much of a choice, really.[/QUOTE]

 

[The Barbarian]

If you had read my post carefully, I answered this. So I will ask you: To whom did James write his letter? It was not to you. It was to the Twelve Tribes that were scattered.

Hmm...
Nope. Says nothing about "a man is justified by faith and works only if he's from one of 12 tribes if Israel." Another of Tom's additions to Gods word to make it more acceptable to him.


Which tribe do you belong to?

 

[TeeJay]

Barbarian, I give up. You're not going to like Purgatory. And if you have family members that you've influenced by "holding back the truth in unrighteousness," they will not like Purgatory either.

Tom

 

[The Barbarian]

You've made it abundantly clear Tom, that you will not believe what God says in the Bible.

And that's all we need to say about it.

 

[Granite]

Granite,

Come on! Don't mince words. Tell how you really feel about me.

But it's even worse that you imagined. To add insult to injury, I have "beautiful feet" (Rom. 10:15).

Tom

:yawn:

Yet another one of you guys who can dish but can't take. Boring.

 

[Stripe]

Yet another one of you guys who can dish but can't take. Boring.

:rotfl:

Says the coward whose MO is to put people on ignore and tell everyone his opponent is on ignore after he reads their posts.

 

[Stripe]

In other news, this book arrived today. I like math discussions. Beats doing equations.

 

[some other dude]

:mock: Granite


He's a whiny little bugger, ain't he? :chuckle:

 

[The Barbarian]

I like math discussions. Beats doing equations.

You like science discussions. Apparently, for the same reasons. :rotfl:

 

[TeeJay]

Barbarian, Years ago, I witnessed to all my Catholic relatives. I was successful in rescuing only one--my niece. Before abandoning you, I want to reveal the truth of Purgatory. I don't expect you to accept it, because you don't have it in your being to admit to any truth. What gene is necessary for accepting truth is missing in your DNA.

The Doctrine of Purgatory

As taught by the Catholic Church, purgatory is the place of temporary punishment for those who have committed venial (pardonable) sins. When those sins are removed by masses said for them, prayers said for them, and penance done in all forms of work, the person is then released from purgatory and permitted to go to heaven. Neither the word “purgatory” nor even the concept of purgatory is found anywhere in Scripture.

In fact, it was not until the Second Council of Lyon, in 1274 A.D., that the Church even gave an opinion about this subject:

"If those who are truly repentant die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial cleansing or punishment. The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these punishments, as for instance, the sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which in the manner of the Church the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful."

In other words, some people are not good enough to go to heaven but not bad enough to go to Hell, and therefore there should be a place where people can go to be purged and eventually allowed to go to heaven. What’s worse is that Jesus’ sacrifice is not good enough. How vile is this belief?

No scripture is quoted. No chief theologians are referenced. No acts of Jesus or Bible passages are cited. The mere pronouncement of a Papal Council made this teaching the infallible truth and holy doctrine of the Church. It is one of the main heresies that Martin Luther argued against, and was a core issue of the Protestant Reformation.

If we compare this Papal decree with God’s word, will it stand or fall? First, who on this earth, other than Jesus Christ, has not committed mortal (unpardonable) sins? Paul said in Romans 3:10, “There is none righteous, no not one.” Isaiah said in Isaiah 64:6, “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags [filthy garments].”

How do we know that the person we are having masses and prayers said for is not an unrepentant child molester, homosexual, mass murderer, or adulterer? Who determines how many masses are sufficient? In 1851, there was a former Irish Catholic (pen name “Kirwan”) who wrote letters to Roman Catholic Bishop John Hughes of New York explaining why he had left the Catholic Church. The bishop responded and a debate ensued. Bishop Hughes forfeited in the ninth round, claiming he had urgent business in Halifax. The letters were published in the New York Observer. Concerning purgatory Kirwan writes:

"A respectable man in our parish died in mid-life, leaving a widow and a large family of children to mourn his loss. True to her religious principles, and to her generous instincts, the widow had her husband’s name placed on that list, and heard, with pious gratitude, his name read over from Sabbath to Sabbath, with a prayer offered for the deliverance of his soul from purgatory. After the lapse of two or three years, on a certain Sabbath, the name of her husband was omitted from the list. The fact filled her with mingled joy and fear; joy, thinking that her husband had escaped from purgatory; and fear, lest she had done something to offend the priest. On timid inquiry, she learned that his soul was yet in purgatory, but that she had forgotten to send in the yearly tax at the time it was due. The tax [tithe] was promptly paid, and the name was restored on the next Sabbath. With this fact, sir, I am entirely conversant; for that widow was my own mother, who sought the release of the soul of my father from purgatory.

"Another fact which early impressed me in reference to purgatory was this. Your church makes a distinction between mortal and venial sinners. The former go to hell for ever—the latter go to purgatory, “whence they are taken by prayers and alms offered for them, and principally by the holy sacrifice of the mass.” Now I always saw that the most mortal sinners, that every body would say went to hell, could always have masses said for them as if they went to purgatory; provided their friends could pay; and that less mortal sinners, that people would say went to purgatory, were sent to hell, if their friends could not pay for masses for them. And their souls were kept in purgatory for a long while when their friends paid promptly every year; but their souls were soon prayed out whose friends could not pay long for them." (“Kirwan” letters to the Rt. Rev. John Hughes, Roman Catholic Bishop of New York. 1851, pgs. 15-17. Presbyterian Board of Publication)

And lastly, did Jesus say to the thief on the Cross who accepted Him as Lord [God], “This day you shall be with me in purgatory.” No! “This day you shall be with me in Paradise [Abraham’s bosom].” In the parable of the beggar Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:22, did Jesus say, “And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into purgatory”? No! “…the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom.” And Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:8 that “to be absent from the body [dead] is to be present with the Lord [not purgatory].” And finally, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment [not purgatory].” (Heb. 9:27)

The Catholic Church has fostered this evil doctrine on Catholics for one reason—money. The doctrine of purgatory is the best business investment the Church has ever made. Purgatory produced the system of indulgences—actions one could perform in order to work off the length of someone else’s stay in purgatory. It is a type of time off for good behavior by a person’s living relatives, and it continues to this very day. If you want to help a dead relative in purgatory try to make it to heaven, you need to have Masses said for that person by giving the priest $500. You can speed up their salvation by giving $1000, etc. Does this not sound like the Mormons’ baptism for the dead? Jesus paid for our salvation with His body on the Cross. But the Catholic Church says you can purchase salvation for $500? What blasphemy!

Tom

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian, Years ago, I witnessed to all my Catholic relatives. I was successful in rescuing only one--my niece. Before abandoning you, I want to reveal the truth of Purgatory. I don't expect you to accept it, because you don't have it in your being to admit to any truth. What gene is necessary for accepting truth is missing in your DNA.

I'm aware of the stories people tell about the Church. It's why I no longer believe you were ever a Catholic. I've been a Catholic all my life, and studied the Church's doctrines and been a parish member in diverse dioseces, and never saw that.

How do we know that the person we are having masses and prayers said for is not an unrepentant child molester, homosexual, mass murderer, or adulterer?

So the Bible is wrong to approve of prayers for the dead?

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian, Years ago, I witnessed to all my Catholic relatives. I was successful in rescuing only one--my niece. Before abandoning you, I want to reveal the truth of Purgatory. I don't expect you to accept it, because you don't have it in your being to admit to any truth. What gene is necessary for accepting truth is missing in your DNA.

I'm aware of the stories people tell about the Church. It's why I no longer believe you were ever a Catholic. I've been a Catholic all my life, and studied the Church's doctrines and been a parish member in diverse dioseces, and never saw that. Nor is that the doctrine of the Church. You should know that, if you were a Catholic.

How do we know that the person we are having masses and prayers said for is not an unrepentant child molester, homosexual, mass murderer, or adulterer?

So the Bible is wrong to approve of prayers for the dead? If you loved God more than you hate Catholics, your soul would be better off.

 

[TeeJay]

=The Barbarian;2731335]I'm aware of the stories people tell about the Church. It's why I no longer believe you were ever a Catholic. I've been a Catholic all my life, and studied the Church's doctrines and been a parish member in diverse dioseces, and never saw that.

Do you think I made all this up out of whole cloth? Instead of studying Catholic doctrines, you should have studied the Bible (God's word) to see if the doctrines were true. Within the last ten years, I attended a mass for my brother who died. The priest asked who would pay for the prayers for my brother (to get him out of Purgatory). His oldest son (my nephew) raised his hand. Sadly, my brother is now most likely in hell. I tried to witness to him, but he wanted nothing to do with God. Yet he made sure that his kids went to a Catholic school and attended the church. Why? An excerp from a writing I did on "Divorce and Remarriage":

Having been raised a Catholic, I was tempted to title this writing, “The Unforgivable Sin.” I recall that for us Catholics, divorce was out of the question. But if one had money and could petition higher authorities within the Church, an annulment could be secured.

In World War II, there were some women who married soldiers and sailors going off to war, hoping they would be killed in action. If a soldier was killed in action, the surviving wife got $10,000 (a tidy sum in the forties). Some of these gals married more than one soldier and, if not caught, would walk away with more than one check.

My brother married one of these gals. When he came home on an unannounced leave to surprise his new bride, he was the one surprised. He tripped over her on the back porch in the embrace of her lover. It gets worse! Her mother was in his bedroom with her lover. The apple does not fall far from the tree.

When he asked our Catholic priest for guidance, he was told that he could not get a divorce without being excommunicated from the Church. My brother informed the priest of his wife’s adultery, but that mattered not. He also told the priest that she did not want to be married to him. That mattered not as well. Divorce was the unforgivable sin. He was told that he could attend mass, tithe, send his kids to the church school (a tuition must be paid), but he could not partake of the sacraments (communion or bread and wine). In other words, you are persona non grata, but your money is welcome. Further, he was told that if he remarried, he and his new wife were committing adultery. He was in his twenties and told that he had to live alone for the rest of his life. It soured my brother on the Catholic Church and God. Just before he died, I attempted to witness to him about Jesus Christ. He was not interested. He did remarry, however, and raised a beautiful family with his second wife.

So the Bible is wrong to approve of prayers for the dead?

First, I do not agree that the Bible approves of prayers for the dead. What good do prayers do for the dead after you die. If you are a member of the Body of Christ, you go directly to heaven. If you are not a member, you go directly to hell to await the Great White Throne judgment. You need to read Luke 16:19-31 carefully. Please explain to me how prayers would do any good for the rich man?

How does one become a member of the Body of Christ? By confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart that Jesus is Lord and that God [Father] raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED (Rom. 10:9-10). (Also see Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 3:9.) Once you do this, your salvation is assured. Please read Rom. 8:35, 37-39; Gal. 2:20; Eph. 1:13-14; 2 Tim. 1:12; 2:13; 1 Cor. 5:5; Gal. 5:22-23; Eph. 2:6; 4:30; Phil. 1:6; Col. 3:3, 13; 2 Tim. 1:12.

Incidently, Bob Enyart is a former Catholic. When we learned that we were saved by grace and not by works, we were set free to have a direct loving relationship with our Lord and Savior, unencumbered by mountains of man-made tradition and regulations which have the appearance of righteousness, but just get in the way.

A few years ago, I took a Bible trip to Greece. My tour guide was a Christian (not Greek Orthodix). (There are only about 8,000 true Christians in Greece.) He could read the Bible in the ancient Greek. I was fortunate to sit next to him on the bus. We talked much. He read Gal. 2:7-9 to me in the Greek and translated it to English. He interpreted it the same as I showed you. There were two gospels, the gospel of circmcision (law and works) committed to Peter and the gospel of uncircumcision (grace with no law or works) committed to Paul. He then asked me why in the world are there so many Americans who think they are Jews? He related that as a tour guide, he meets many Americans. Some think they should keep the Sabbath. Some think they should obey the dietary laws. The Catholics think they are saved by law and works. He was perplexed and asked me, "Why do you Americans not understand your Bibles?" I'm perplexed as well.

Tom

 

[TeeJay]

=The Barbarian;2731338]I'm aware of the stories people tell about the Church. It's why I no longer believe you were ever a Catholic. I've been a Catholic all my life, and studied the Church's doctrines and been a parish member in diverse dioseces, and never saw that. Nor is that the doctrine of the Church. You should know that, if you were a Catholic.

If I present you with a science argument, you do backflips to google and present me with contrary evidence. But you will not lift one finger to do the same with the doctrine of Purgatory. Why? Has the Catholic done away with the doctrine of Purgatory? I'm not aware of it. And you believe you are going there. Are you questioning your own belief? I'm confused. The cults, like Mormons and JWs believe in prayers for the dead, because their jesus is not God. Thus, His sacrifice not sufficient to save, thus, they do not believe in eternal hell. But Jesus does.

So the Bible is wrong to approve of prayers for the dead? If you loved God more than you hate Catholics, your soul would be better off.

If you can show me where the Bible approves of prayers for the dead, please do so. Quit stealing my lines. If I hated Catholics, why in the world would I be spending this much time trying to get you saved?

Tom

 

[Silent Hunter]

If you can show me where the Bible approves of prayers for the dead, please do so. Quit stealing my lines. If I hated Catholics, why in the world would I be spending this much time trying to get you saved?

. . . quick question, Tom . . .

. . . what does "saving" catholics and their doctrine of purgatory have to do with mathematics?

. . . just wondering . . .

 

[The Barbarian]

Tom, making up stories is what got you in trouble in the first place. Making up new ones won't do anything but make it worse.

The Catholic church doesn't care about divorce, which is a civil matter; nothing it does changes the fact of the marriage. If you get divorced and don't remarry, you haven't violated God's law. As far as the Church goes, a valid marriage is forever, and a divorce does nothing to change that. The thing is, all your brother had to do, was give reasonable evidence that the woman never intended this to be a real marriage, and it would have been annulled. You see, that was never a marriage in the Church's eyes. Odd how many personal experiences you've had with the Church that are directly at odds with the teaching of the Church.

It's things like this that make one wonder if you aren't more of a disciple of Martin Luther than of Christ.

"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."
Martin Luther

He was wrong, Tom. God is truth, and cannot be served by lying.

 

[The Barbarian]

God says:
James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?


Tom disagrees:

If you are justified by works, then it is no longer grace. I'm about to pull the plug on you and move on.

I think you pulled the plug on Him some time ago, Tom. The more you struggle to keep people away from God, the more you remove yourself from Him.

You've set yourself, or whoever your new guru is, above God's word. And that's a real shame.

 

[Bob Enyart]

Source [on Einstein's wrestling with the very existence of non-material 'concepts']?

See AmericanRTL.org/Einstein for links.

Our brains solve problems, and we know how it does that.

Wow. What a claim. Maybe your brain, Squishes, knows how we do that. If so, yours may be the only one.

I've only begun looking at this thread, but Tom from Mabanks, great job!

-Bob Enyart

 

[Bob Enyart]

Math describes our world because there is no other possible way it could be.

Yes Squishes, along with Tom and Einstein, I agree, we all agree, that Math describes the world. And beautifully. Elegantly. The problem Einstein wrote that he couldn't solve (and perhaps you've solved it, or perhaps you haven't thought hard enough about it yet to come to his dilemma), is why should non-physical mathematics so eloquently describe the physical world? For example, why should E=MC2 unless the physical properties of the universe were tuned to accomplish this? Atheism has never-ending "just-so" explanations from the anthropic principle on down. As I later updated the OP with my notes from James Nickel's Friday night presentation:

* Update: In James Nickel's talk Friday night he demonstrated how mathematicians turn away from the physical world and yet make astounding discoveries that help to explain the world of matter and energy. They use only their minds, and these discoveries come decades and even centuries before their real-world counterparts make the discovery by observational science. This was Einstein's unanswerable dilemma, answered by the fact that the universe was designed in the mind of God. And because we are made in God's image, as Kepler is paraphrased we can think God's thoughts after Him. Exploring astounding and unexpected symmetries, mathematicians often describe their work as an aesthetic pursuit of beauty. So ignoring their five senses, the mathematicians who turn away from the physical world to the non-material world of ideas, seeking pleasure from pure intellectual elegance, often end up being the ones who come closest to describing the physical nature of the cosmos. Atheists struggle with this phenomena because it suggests that the universe originated with the desire for beauty in the mind of a personal Creator.​

And here is one of our RSF comments on the Anthropic Principle:

Anthropic Principle: Big Bang cosmologists claim that there is no problem with the many exquisitely and extraordinarily fine-tuned physical parameters of the universe such as the gravitational force constant, the electromagnetic force constant, and the ratios of the numbers and mass of electrons to protons. Why is there no problem with the extraordinarily unlikely precise values of these ratios, including for example the 1 to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ratio of the essential electron to proton mass ratio? Because the anthropic principle claims that if all the many perfectly tuned ratios and constants of the universe weren't just that way, well then, we wouldn't be here to wonder about them. This is an example of the common "just-so" story telling and circular reasoning in pop science Big Bang and Darwinist circles today.​

-Bob Enyart
RealScienceFriday.com