Right Divider
Body part
Another gross ASSUMPTION Jerry. NOWHERE does it say that.
Why does he need to be? He's doesn't need to be.
Your final authority is Jerry.
Rapture Ready
- Thread starter serpentdove
- Start date
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
According to you despitev the fact that Apollos was ministerning to those in the Body of Christ he wasn't even a member of the Body of Christ!
You must think that Paul made an error when he said that both he and Apollos are one:
"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).
Since this thread is about the rapture let us talk about that. Only those in the Body of Christ will be raptured and those who received the Hebrew epistles were taught to be waiting for that to happen. Let's look at the following verse from the pen of the Apostle John:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).
John told these believers that they were expecting to see the Lord Jesus appear while they remained alive and they were expecting that at His appearance they would be made like Him. Living believrs will not be made like Him when He returns to the earth to usher in the kingdom. Therefore, John's words can only be in regard to the "mystery" truth found here and only applies to members of the Body of Christ:
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).
You have already displayed your ignorance when it comes to Apollos so now you can show us how ignorant you are concerning the facts about the rapture!
Right Divider
Body part
There is NO LOGICAL problem with that Jerry.
Please explain why Apollos NEEDS to be a member of the body of Christ to minister to the body of Christ.
John is NOT talking about the "catching away". John was given NO knowledge of it. That is more Pauline doctrine that folks like you want to READ BACK INTO the other scriptures.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Because Paul said that he and Apollos are "one."
"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).
Paul and Apollos were working together as ministers to the Body and Paul said that they are both one.
Sure John is speaking about the catching away. Only the members of the Body were taught that the rapture was imminent and could happen at any moment. That is exactly what James is talking about here:
"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).
The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:
"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).
Hi to both of you and the answer is in Acts 18:25-28 and APOLLOS was saved !!
dan p
Right Divider
Body part
Being "one" there denotes unity of doctrine.
The Lord's coming that James was talking about was His coming to EARTH to establish His kingdom and NOT the catching away IN THE AIR that Paul speaks of.
You're a mess JS.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It's impossible that the "imminent" appearance of the Lord Jesus spoken of by James is the one when He will return to the earth.
The rapture, being imminent, can happen at any moment. But the Lord's return to the earth cannot happen until after certain events happen first, such as the abomination of desolations standing in the holy place (Mt.24:15). So that coming cannot be described as being imminent.
So it is impossible that coming of the Lord Jesus to the earth can be described as being imminent. Since the appearance of the Lord Jesus of which James is speaking is imminent then that appearance is the rapture.
Since only those in the Body will be caught up at the rapture then we know that those who received James' epistle are members of the Body of Christ.
Yo, incompetent, earlier in that same chapter, Paul has already identified both of those groups as formerly lost people.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Put your ever confused Acts 2 / Acts 13 mix or hybrid playbook, away already.
:chuckle:
Rom. 5:6-8.
No, clueless.
Both groups had expected each their respective physical redemptions back then.
The Mystery Body's Pre-Trib Mystery Rapture - Gap of Time - Israel's Prophesied Seven Years - Israel's Prophesied Post-Trib Return of the Lord.
Duh-uh
:chuckle:
Rom. 5:6-8.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Once again you fail to believe that by the time when the Hebrew epistles Israel had been set aside.
Despite that fact you continue to try to place the Hebrew believers in Israel.
Besides that blunder, you prove that you do not understand the meaning of the word "imminent."
And that is why you just ignored it!
Right Divider
Body part
Your idea of what the Bible teaches is just wrong. Sorry to be the barer of that news Jerry.
James never gives even the slightest idea of a CATCHING AWAY INTO THE AIR. That is strictly PAULINE doctrine.
But, then again, you are another one that is always "retranslating" "the Greek" to get what you want out of it.
Bible blenderism.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Your understanding is so limited that you fail to understand the "imminent" appearing of the Lord can only refer to one appearance and that appearance is the rapture.
And that is the reason that you just ignored the fact that those who received the Hebrew epistles were expecting an "imminent" appearance of the Lord Jesus.
The teaching that the rapture is "imminent" is supported by the following passage:
"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).
The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
Now let's look at a verse from the Hebrew epistles where the same coming of the Lord is described as being near:
"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near (eggizo)" (James 5:8).
The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:
"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).
Only those who belong to the Body of Christ will be raptured. Paul Sadler writes:
"The 'secret' resurrection that will take place at the Rapture should never be confused with the 'first' resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. Those who rightly divide the Word of truth now see that only the members of the Body of Christ will be raised at the Rapture" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1993], 167).
Those who received the Hebrew epistles were taught to be expecting an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus just like all of the other members of the Body of Christ.
Right Divider
Body part
Poor Bible correcter Jerry.
James and John (and the rest of the Hebrew prophets and writers) did not write about the CATCHING AWAY INTO THE AIR. You can ramble on and reinterpret all that you want.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You talk big but you didn't say even one thing which proves that what I said is in error. Evidently the meaning of the word "imminent" remains a mystery to you.
You need to actually read the Bible because that is exactly what John refers to here:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).
John told these believers that they were expecting to see the Lord Jesus appear while they remained alive--"for we shall see him as he is."
They were expecting that at His appearance they would be made like Him--"we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him."
It will only be at the rapture when the living saints will be made like the Lord Jesus. That is the "mystery" truth spoken of here:
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).
So we can see that John was teaching that when the Lord Jesus appears the saints who are living will see Him as He is and they will be made like Him. That can only be speaking of the rapture.
Combine that fact with the fact that the Hebrew Christians were taught to be expecting an "imminent" appearance of the Lord and the facts could not be any plainer--The Hebrew believers were members of the Body of Christ.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
Plain as day!
Last edited:
Right Divider
Body part
The KJB translators used the word NEAR in THAT context. Perhaps you think that you are smarter than they. You're not.
Rubbish on your part - the Hebrew Epistles are addressing the issue of the Believing Remnant's delayed Hope.
Imminence is more a sense of the particular believer's respective hope that the Lord is ever at hand, than it is of timing.
Luke 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
That, you books based incompetent, is what words and phrasing like shortly, at hand, and so on, are ever referring to...to a sense of imminence at all times.
Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
And yet, no Rapture, nor a Second Advent, some two thousand plus years later.
Rom. 5:6-8.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So?
The fact of the matter is that the Greek word translated "near" means "imminent."
Do you think that you are smarter than the Greek experts which say that the Greek word translated "near" means "imminent"?
You're not!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are you really this dense?
If James was speaking about anyone's delayed hope he would not have used a word which means "imminent" to describe that hope.
Right Divider
Body part
In the CONTEXT the imminence was not what you say that it is.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In that case what did the Greek word translated "imminence" mean when James used it?