Rapid Adaptation

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Nope. Creationist organizations very clearly explain that they do not follow the scientific method.

Statement of Faith
By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record.

That's the exact opposite of the scientific method.


If this is true as you have presented it, then your scientific method is, by your definition, dedicated to eradicating Biblical principles at all levels of understanding.

Your "exact" opposite would be:

All apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, cannot be valid if it agrees with the scriptural record.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Creationism is starting with a particular idea to begin with and then trying to find evidence to support it.

Science is testing hypotheses through observation and experiment and rejecting ideas that fail.

You can't see that this is one and the same thing, can you?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
*

If you believe that you don't know your history nor the scientific method. Did Francis Bacon use the scientific method? Kepler? Newton? Did Robert Boyle, Faraday or Pasteur use the scientific method? Do modern scientists such as John Sanford or Raymond Damadian use the scientific method? As Kepler said science is thinking God's thoughts after Him.*

Appeal to authority much? And mostly rather old ones at that.

Because someone may use the scientific method in their work, does not mean they use the scientific approach in everything. That's been demonstrated over and over, in atheist scientists as well as creationists. If someone has a belief they hold dear that conflicts with scientific data, the scientific method goes out the window.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
You can't see that this is one and the same thing, can you?

It's not the same thing because the creationist never rejects the hypothesis. They just keep searching around to find something that might support their ideas, ignoring anything that does not support them.

Science takes in all evidence, ESPECIALLY evidence that contradicts accepted ideas. The scientist will *change* the hypothesis, if it is clearly wrong. The steady state universe was rejected because of the evidence available.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
It's not the same thing because the creationist never rejects the hypothesis. They just keep searching around to find something that might support their ideas, ignoring anything that does not support them.

Neither does the evolutionist. It is and always will be "billions" of years because that is what is required. All other interpretations are ignored or ridiculed.

In fact, we almost never ignore evolutionist's so-called "evidence". We are always pointing out the faults because you won't. You can't have it both ways. You can't complain that we have no evidence of our own and at the same time we ignore yours. That would result in silence which is not at all the case. Please, at the very least, allow logic to have some sway in your criticisms.

In addition, there is no such thing as "our evidence" and "your evidence" anyway. This is famous evolutionary snake oil. Get that through your head once and for all. The evidence is all the same. There are bones and fossils in the ground. Sedimentary strata exist. DNA is DNA. C14 is C14. The difference is in how evidence is interpreted or, in some cases, whether or not it is even admissible.

Science takes in all evidence, ESPECIALLY evidence that contradicts accepted ideas. The scientist will *change* the hypothesis, if it is clearly wrong. The steady state universe was rejected because of the evidence available.


Define "clearly"! A subjective idea that bows to the evolutionary paradigm. Evolution does not take into consideration evidence that is contradictory. It can't do that seriously or honestly because it is pre-committed to evolution. There is no difference in the ways creationists and evolutionists approach the evidence. The evidence is the same and the method is the same. The difference is in the presuppositions.

Tell me that the hypothesis that T-rex is really 70 million years old was ever seriously questioned when Schweitzer found blood cells and soft tissue in a bone.

Quote:
"I had one reviewer tell me that he didn't care what the data said, he knew that what I was finding wasn't possible. I wrote back and said, “Well, what data would convince you?” And he said, “None.”"

Tell me how that and the following adhere to the "Scientific Principle"?

Well if it survives on my shelf in the presence of iron for 2 years, then it must be able to survive for 35 million times that long! (not a quote)
That's like running as fast as you can off the rim of the Grand Canyon and, after 2 feet saying; "So far, so good!".

BTW - The elimination of Steady State Cosmology never threatened the TOE with extinction which is why it was able to be tossed. Try finding one upon which the Grand Ole Theory hinges and see what you come up with.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Neither does the evolutionist. It is and always will be "billions" of years because that is what is required. All other interpretations are ignored or ridiculed.
Because all the evidence from the earliest geologists till now says at it's most basic: "Earth is far older than 6-10,000 years". Has nothing to do with what is required for anything.

If you see this:

You say "hmm this clearly cannot have happened in a single global flood or within 6000 years."

siccarpoint.jpg


And that's exactly what the early Christian geologists realized.
In fact, we almost never ignore evolutionist's so-called "evidence". We are always pointing out the faults because you won't. You can't have it both ways. You can't complain that we have no evidence of our own and at the same time we ignore yours. That would result in silence which is not at all the case. Please, at the very least, allow logic to have some sway in your criticisms.
Your "fault pointing" as a rule is cherry picking at best.

The difference is in the presuppositions.
Yes, you have a presupposition that doesn't rest on data, it rests on your belief. The presupposition in science is merely that nature works in a consistent manner and that the workings of nature can be discovered by careful experimentation and observation.

Tell me that the hypothesis that T-rex is really 70 million years old was ever seriously questioned when Schweitzer found blood cells and soft tissue in a bone.
It comes down to which is more reasonable:

Is it possible that blood cells in some form (or casts of them or biofilms resembling them) could survive for millions of years.

Or is all of the data we've collected concerning the age of the earth: multiple types of radiometric dating (C14 is just one), stratigraphy and the pattern of fossils in rocks all over the earth, tree ring data extending past 6000 years, human historical sites continuing uninterrupted, starlight from distant stars (and supernovae from places much farther than 6000 light years away).

All of THAT is magically wrong because someone thought maybe some rehydratable maybe tissue maybe biofilm was found in some dinosaur bones?

It's like deciding to believe in spontaneous generation again because nobody can figure out how chickens are catching avian flu.

That's what you're describing, not a revolution but a reversion to a previous idea that was rejected because of data.

Quote:
"I had one reviewer tell me that he didn't care what the data said, he knew that what I was finding wasn't possible. I wrote back and said, “Well, what data would convince you?” And he said, “None.”"

Tell me how that and the following adhere to the "Scientific Principle"?

Well if it survives on my shelf in the presence of iron for 2 years, then it must be able to survive for 35 million times that long! (not a quote)
That's like running as fast as you can off the rim of the Grand Canyon and, after 2 feet saying; "So far, so good!".
So because individual scientists are sometimes unscientific does not magically mean all of science is wrong. Science is very interested in overturning old ideas. If there were evidence to show the earth is not 4.5 billion years old and evolution never happened, the person presenting that solid evidence would be amazingly famous and receive all kinds of accolades.

It sometimes takes some time but scientific revolutionaries that are supported by data soon become heroes. No data? No accolades.

BTW - The elimination of Steady State Cosmology never threatened the TOE with extinction which is why it was able to be tossed. Try finding one upon which the Grand Ole Theory hinges and see what you come up with.
Have you ever considered the option that the Theory of Evolution actually IS true and that's why there's no evidence to supplant it?
 

6days

New member
Alate_One said:
6days said:
If you believe that you don't know your history nor the scientific method. Did Francis Bacon use the scientific method? Kepler? Newton? Did Robert Boyle, Faraday or Pasteur use the scientific method? Do modern scientists such as John Sanford or Raymond Damadian use the scientific method? As Kepler said science is thinking God's thoughts after Him.
Appeal to authority much? And mostly rather old ones at that.*
Nope.... you were wrong on your history....seemed to not understand the scientific method. ...and not you don't understand logical fallacies.

Appeal to Authority "Definition:*Using an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument."


Review:
ALATE_ONE "Creationists don't use the scientific method."

You were wrong. As I showed you, great scientists past and present DO use the scientific method.
 

6days

New member
Alate_One said:
Because all the evidence from the earliest geologists till now says.....
The evidence itself says nothing; it has no voice . Evidence requires interpretation. Fortunately and there is now a growing body of Biblical creationist geologistswho do not accept the evolutionary consensus
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Nope.... you were wrong on your history....seemed to not understand the scientific method. ...and not you don't understand logical fallacies.

Appeal to Authority "Definition:*Using an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument."
No. An appeal to authority is using an authority's opinion INSTEAD of evidence. Anyone's opinion, when not supported by evidence, is just an opinion.

Your argument is basically this:

Because *insert scientist* believes in creationism and uses the scientific method, then creationism must be true or at least scientific.

Neither of those ideas follow.

Review:
ALATE_ONE "Creationists don't use the scientific method."

You were wrong. As I showed you, great scientists past and present DO use the scientific method.
In supporting creationism, they don't use the scientific method. The scientific method has already showed the earth is older than 6000 years and evolution happened. Your point is what?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
The evidence itself says nothing; it has no voice . Evidence requires interpretation.
Scientific ideas are statements that make predictions. Evidence is either consistent with the prediction or it isn't.

The theory of Evolution predicted that all organisms share a common ancestor. The discovery of the universal genetic code, and patterns of similarities and differences in DNA are consistent with that idea.

You may say these are consistent with the "creation model" but that is part of what makes creationism not scientific. You don't offer any ideas that are falsifiable.

Genetics of organisms is such that each *species* of creature could have either its own unique sequences of key genes or they could all be almost exactly the same, however neither is the case. Instead there's a clear pattern of similarities and differences which give a phylogeny, a tree pattern. The same pattern of evolutionary history.

Fortunately and there is now a growing body of Biblical creationist geologistswho do not accept the evolutionary consensus
Real scientists did flood geology until the early 1800s, then they realized the evidence was overwhelming. Then in the 1960's Henry Morris and others promoted flood geology which came out of the 7th day adventist church. This became popular in evangelical circles.
Today the only people doing "flood geology" people choosing to delude themselves and others for money. People like you buy their books and happily lap up their storytelling.

There is no scientific utility in flood geology. Otherwise oil and fracking companies would be using Noah's flood to guide their expeditions.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
It's a useless definition because you can never tell us how to figure out what was in that common ancestor population.
Sure, you can. You most certainly know of one way to classify animals according to this definition. Want to share it?

And scientifically it's a useless definition because genetics show us everything shared a common ancestor. There's no bright dividing line between things that share an ancestor and things that don't. All groups of organisms grade into one another.
Evolutionists have to say that.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
How do you establish what is and isn't descended from a universal ancestral population?
Genetics would be the best way.

How do different populations descend from a common ancestral population, if no population ever evolves?

They adapt. :duh:

Notice how quickly the evolutionists want to get away from OP? They hate even to admit a challenge has been issued.
 

6days

New member
Alate_One said:
Appeal to authority is using an authority's opinion INSTEAD of evidence. Anyone's opinion, when not supported by evidence, is just an opinion.
Dance with definitions all you like but the opinion you offered was completely false.

Review: Alate"Creationists don't use the scientific method."

I responded. .."If you believe that you don't know your history nor the scientific method. Did Francis Bacon use the scientific method? Kepler? Newton? Did Robert Boyle, Faraday or Pasteur use the scientific method? Do modern scientists such as John Sanford or Raymond Damadian use the scientific method? As Kepler said science is thinking God's thoughts after Him."

There you have it.... no appeal to authority. Simply naming scientists who quite obviously use the scientific method. Your statement was false.

Alate_One said:
Your argument is basically this:
Because *insert scientist* believes in creationism and uses the scientific method, then creationism must be true or at least scientific.

Silly

False,*

and a strawman

I suggested no such thing

I simply showed your statement was false. Scientists who do believe God created do use the scientific method. *I provided examples.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Dance with definitions all you like but the opinion you offered was completely false.

Review: Alate"Creationists don't use the scientific method."

I responded. .."If you believe that you don't know your history nor the scientific method. Did Francis Bacon use the scientific method? Kepler? Newton? Did Robert Boyle, Faraday or Pasteur use the scientific method? Do modern scientists such as John Sanford or Raymond Damadian use the scientific method? As Kepler said science is thinking God's thoughts after Him."

There you have it.... no appeal to authority. Simply naming scientists who quite obviously use the scientific method. Your statement was false.



Silly

False,*

and a strawman

I suggested no such thing

I simply showed your statement was false. Scientists who do believe God created do use the scientific method. *I provided examples.
What on earth is your point then? I'm a scientist that believes in God and I teach and utilize the scientific method. There are lots of us.

You're the one creating a strawman. I said creationists don't use the scientific method, obviously meaning the ideas of creationism are unscientific and cannot be pursued using the scientific method. I don't know how you could get out of my statement that individuals who may be creationists (or believers in God as is the new standard apparently) are personally incapable of using the scientific method, assuming whatever they're studying at the time doesn't impinge on their beliefs.

The point I'm trying to get across to you is creationism isn't open to the scientific method. It doesn't qualify as science. And in the promotion of creationism, there is no use of the scientific method, only cherry picking. The fact that some scientists may choose to accept it, despite it being unscientific, is immaterial to the discussion.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Creationists don't use the scientific method ... the ideas of creationism are unscientific and cannot be pursued using the scientific method.

And yet we can take the definition I provided, look at evidence and test the competing ideas that all animals are one kind or many.

Sounds like science to me. :idunno:

Evolutionists hate even to admit there is a challenge.
 

6days

New member
Alate_One said:
Scientific ideas are statements that make predictions. Evidence is either consistent with the prediction or it isn't.
Yes... like in the OP where evolutionists admit surprise. Rapid adaptation is expected / predicted in the creationist model.*

Alate_One said:
The theory of Evolution predicted that all organisms share a common ancestor. The discovery of the universal genetic code, and patterns of similarities and differences in DNA are consistent with that idea.
Too bad you are unwilling to follow the evidence where it leads... to the Creator God of the Bible.*
The more we learn about the genetic code, the more we see how Darwinan evolutionism fails as an explanation. It is not only Biblical creationists who say this.
For ex. The president of the International Union of Physiological Sciences, Prof. *Dennis Noble, Oxford says that "all the central assumptions of the modern Synthesis have been disproved". He is hoping someone comes up with a suitable explanation to the evidence. (Anything but a Creator God).
Article in Experimental Physiology 'Physiology is Rocking the Foundations of Evolutionary Biology'.

Another example of an evolutionist unintentionally admitting things such as our genetic code and molecular motors in our Cells point to the Creator. Dr.*Stephen Larson, biologist and engineet who holds a PhD in neuroscience gave a RED talk titled
"Digital biology and open science -- the coming revolution"**He says that lifes "complex interacting molecular machines" reveal "molecular clockwork is real and pervasive". *He said these molecular motors appear to be built by an engineer a million times smarter than we are.*
 

6days

New member
Alate_One said:
The point I'm trying to get across to you is creationism isn't open to the scientific method.
Neither is evolutionism open to the scientific method. They are beliefs about the past.

The point however *is that both evolutionists and creationists do use the scientific method...you were wrong about that.
 

Jose Fly

New member
If this is true as you have presented it, then your scientific method is, by your definition, dedicated to eradicating Biblical principles at all levels of understanding.

Your "exact" opposite would be:

All apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, cannot be valid if it agrees with the scriptural record.

Wrong. Their statement is the opposite of the scientific method because under the scientific method you're supposed to follow the evidence wherever it leads. AiG very clearly states that they will not follow the evidence if it leads to anything that conflicts with their religious beliefs.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Genetics would be the best way.

How? What specifically do you look at to tell if two populations share a common ancestry?

They adapt.

By what mechanisms?

Notice how quickly the evolutionists want to get away from OP? They hate even to admit a challenge has been issued.

By all means, let's return to the topic of the OP. 6days says speciation (the development of new species) is a part of the "creationist model" (whatever that is). Do you agree?
 
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