Question on the Transfiguration

2003cobra

New member
This was way down in another thread and wasn’t getting answered, so I thought it might need a fresh start.

What did the Father actually say from the cloud?

Matthew 17:5 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/matthew/17-5.html
5 While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, "This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!"

Luke 9:35 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/luke/9-35.html
35 Then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!"

Mark 9:7 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/mark/9-7.html
7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, "This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!"

There are differences, especially with Luke saying “my chosen” rather than “the beloved.”
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings 2003cobra,
What did the Father actually say from the cloud?
Matthew 17:5 NRS: While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, "This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!"
Luke 9:35 NRS: Then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!"
Mark 9:7 NRS: Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, "This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!"
There are differences, especially with Luke saying “my chosen” rather than “the beloved.”
Firstly note that all three Gospel records in the KJV have "My Beloved Son". This is perhaps a textual matter, and your NRS could be wrong. Nevertheless there seems to be similar interchange of words used when Jesus was baptised, when the voice from heaven says “This is my beloved Son” while Isaiah in prophecy calls Jesus God’s elect or chosen.
Matthew 3:16–17 (AV): 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Isaiah 42:1 (AV): Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect (or chosen NASB), in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.


Although this may not answer every occurrence where two slightly different accounts are recorded, each of the Gospel records may be only a summary of what was said in total, or one or more are an accurate exact wording, while the other gives the essential meaning in other words.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

beameup

New member
Peter, James and John were the eyewitnesses.
Only Matthew had the skills of shorthand (in Greek) due to his profession.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
This was way down in another thread and wasn’t getting answered, so I thought it might need a fresh start.

What did the Father actually say from the cloud?

Matthew 17:5 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/matthew/17-5.html
5 While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, "This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!"

Luke 9:35 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/luke/9-35.html
35 Then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!"

Mark 9:7 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/mark/9-7.html
7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, "This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!"

There are differences, especially with Luke saying “my chosen” rather than “the beloved.”
Irrelevant
 

2003cobra

New member
Greetings 2003cobra,
Firstly note that all three Gospel records in the KJV have "My Beloved Son". This is perhaps a textual matter, and your NRS could be wrong. Nevertheless there seems to be similar interchange of words used when Jesus was baptised, when the voice from heaven says “This is my beloved Son” while Isaiah in prophecy calls Jesus God’s elect or chosen.
Matthew 3:16–17 (AV): 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Isaiah 42:1 (AV): Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect (or chosen NASB), in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.


Although this may not answer every occurrence where two slightly different accounts are recorded, each of the Gospel records may be only a summary of what was said in total, or one or more are an accurate exact wording, while the other gives the essential meaning in other words.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thanks.

I typically use the New Revised Standard Version. There has been a lot of progress in textual criticism and access to manuscript in the past 400 years.
 
Last edited:

2003cobra

New member
Because different accounts often have slight differences. That does not make them any less reliable. If they were all identical, that would hint towards collusion.
Thanks.

I agree that their reliability is more evident because the differences discredit potential claims of collusion.

The fact that there are small, insignificant differences does cause a problem for those people who think God breathed every word.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I agree that their reliability is more evident because the differences discredit potential claims of collusion.

The fact that there are small, insignificant differences does cause a problem for those people who think God breathes every word.
Those are ones that are typically starting from a position of unbelief and looking to "support" that view.
 

2003cobra

New member
Those are ones that are typically starting from a position of unbelief and looking to "support" that view.

Maybe, but there is also another important group: those who have been taught that God breathed every word and then can’t understand why there are differences.
 

daqq

Well-known member
This was way down in another thread and wasn’t getting answered, so I thought it might need a fresh start.

What did the Father actually say from the cloud?

Matthew 17:5 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/matthew/17-5.html
5 While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, "This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!"

Luke 9:35 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/luke/9-35.html
35 Then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!"

Mark 9:7 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/mark/9-7.html
7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, "This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!"

There are differences, especially with Luke saying “my chosen” rather than “the beloved.”

As I asked:
What did the Father actually say from the cloud?


I am hoping someone has the courage to take a position.

All of the above because for one reason:

Isaiah 42:1-3 KJV
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

Matthew 12:17-20 KJV
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.


And for another reason:

Genesis 22:2 KJV
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son (H3173 יחיד) Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Genesis 22:2 LXX (Brenton Translation)
2 And he said, Take thy son, the beloved one, (G27 αγαπητος) whom thou hast loved - Isaac, and go into the high land, and offer him there for a whole-burnt-offering on one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.


Greek "agapetos", ("beloved") = Hebrew "yachid", ("one and only", (beloved implied).
Moreover, concerning Isaac, yachid also implies chosen because he was not an only son.
 
Top