Psalm 72 - The Coming New World Order Soon to be Established on Earth

[genuineoriginal]

Greetings again genuineoriginal,

I answered your Post yesterday, but it has been deleted. I assume they are still having database problems. I will see if this post survives.

My response to your answer was also deleted because of the database problems.
:idunno:

I do not consider that the interpretation of prophecy is speculative. The headings that I supplied to Psalm 72 in the OP are not speculative, but a simple summary of the content of the verses. An understanding of the detail of Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2, Zechariah 14 is not speculative, as the terms are simple and clear, and Daniel 2 even gives its own interpretation of the image so that King Nebuchadnezzar could understand.

When the clear interpretation of a prophecy is given in the Bible, then the interpretation is not speculative.
However, all the rest of prophecy interpretation is speculative, which explains how people can come up with such wildly different interpretations for the exact same text.

An example is the four beasts of Daniel 7.
Some people interpret them as Assyria, Media, Persia, and Greece.
Others interpret them as Babylon, Media, Persia, and Greece.
Still others interpret them as Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.
The difference is in how your preconceived ideas and knowledge of history influence your interpretation.

I do not subscribe to any Replacement Theology. I do not know what is Replacement Theology, but I should imagine that some of these would interpret Isaiah 2:1-4 as the Church, but I certainly believe that this is talking about Jesus upon the throne of David in literal Jerusalem during the 1000 years.
I cannot accept your perspective above and the detail that you then describe. Psalm 72, Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2, Zechariah 14 form a framework to understand the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years.

The promise of the Kingdom of God that will rule over the nations from Jerusalem for 1000 years was given to the children of Israel and not to the Church.
Either the Church have become joint-heirs of this promise with the children of Israel, or the Church has a separate destiny that will prevent them from living in the Kingdom of God on Earth.

My perspective is based on the belief that God will fulfill all His promises of the Kingdom to the children of Israel, both the good ones and the bad ones, and that God will join the Christians and the children of Israel together to share the promises when Christ returns.
Since so much of the prophecies in the Bible deal with the exile of the children of Israel from the land of promise, I use that as the guide for interpreting the New Testament prophecies.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again genuineoriginal,

When the clear interpretation of a prophecy is given in the Bible, then the interpretation is not speculative.
However, all the rest of prophecy interpretation is speculative, which explains how people can come up with such wildly different interpretations for the exact same text.

An example is the four beasts of Daniel 7.
Some people interpret them as Assyria, Media, Persia, and Greece.
Others interpret them as Babylon, Media, Persia, and Greece.
Still others interpret them as Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.
The difference is in how your preconceived ideas and knowledge of history influence your interpretation.

I agree with the last of these, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, and you seem to agree, but from the following comments we differ on the ten horns and the feet being part of iron and clay.

Not quite. The four kingdoms of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are from the Babylonian captivity until the first advent of Christ.
Trying to extend those prophecies beyond that time will result in foolishness.

I cannot understand your view that seems to differ from the fairly popular view that the clay and iron of the feet represents the breakup of the Roman Empire into individual kingdoms, initially by the various waves of Goths and similar, and this subdivision has been maintained to the present day on the eve of Jesus' return. I am not sure of how you understand the stone smiting the image on the feet. Did this occur at the first advent, or will this be at the return of Jesus to establish his kingdom upon the earth, completely replacing the kingdoms of men Daniel 2:35,44?.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[genuineoriginal]

Greetings again genuineoriginal, I agree with the last of these, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, and you seem to agree, but from the following comments we differ on the ten horns and the feet being part of iron and clay.
I cannot understand your view that seems to differ from the fairly popular view that the clay and iron of the feet represents the breakup of the Roman Empire into individual kingdoms, initially by the various waves of Goths and similar, and this subdivision has been maintained to the present day on the eve of Jesus' return. I am not sure of how you understand the stone smiting the image on the feet. Did this occur at the first advent, or will this be at the return of Jesus to establish his kingdom upon the earth, completely replacing the kingdoms of men Daniel 2:35,44?.

Why should I accept the popular view that the feet of the statue in Daniel 2 represents a divided kingdom that lasts for 2 thousand years?
The prophecy of the stone was about Jesus destroying the Roman Empire in the first century CE to establish His kingdom, not about Christ destroying a divided kingdom that can't really be identified as a kingdom two thousand years after the time of His first advent.
The final outcome of the prophecy was put aside until the second advent of Christ in order to fulfill the punishments ordained on the children of Israel.
However, it does not follow that the breakup of the Roman Empire will exist for two thousand years simply because the final outcome of the prophecy was put aside for two thousand years.
The feet of clay mixed with iron represented the state of the Roman Empire in the first century, where the elite and the common people ruled together.
There will be (already is) another empire that will have the elite and the common people ruling together that will be used for the fulfillment of the prophecy.

 

[Gurucam]

The new world order is at hand, on earth

The new world order is at hand, on earth

The new world order is at hand, on earth

The world wide reality has move to the Age of Enlightenment in Christ.

However it was long confirmed that many are called and few chosen. And straight is the gate and narrow the way that leadeth to life, eternal, and few be there be that find this gate and way.

Matthew 7 King James Version (KJV)
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The U.S.A. is finally embracing Christianity.

The U.S.A. has been a Mosaic country. However the people of the U.S.A were long deceived into believing that they were a Christian country.

The Mosaic approach requires humans to judge and punish others. The Mosaic approach also require a schoolmaster/policeman.

The Christian way of life require one to leave judgment and justice to God. According to Jesus and the Holy KJV N.T., until now, the U.S.A. did not follow Jesus and they walked in darkness:

Hebrews 10 KJV N.T.
20 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

john: 8 KJV N.T.
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Matthew: 5 King James Version (KJV)
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Only recently, President Trump, in dealing with Pres. Kim Jong-un of North Korea, used the Christian approach.

Traditionally, the approach of the U.S.A. is to judge and even punish other leader, according to the O.T. Mosaic ideas of the U.S.A.. This is the O.T. Mosaic system.

Not judging and/or forgiving is the N.T. Christian approach, that was established and introduced some 2000 odd years ago.

The entire world wide reality is finally moving to Christianity. Everywhere the O.T. Mosaic system is crumbling and falling by the way side, so as to give way, fully, to the N.T.Christian system.

President Truth has made the change in the above case with Pres. Kim Jong-un of North Korea. However the media and many citizens (especially Democrats) of the U.S.A., are stuck in the Old Mosaic reality. .

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again genuineoriginal and Greetings Gurucam,

The prophecy of the stone was about Jesus destroying the Roman Empire in the first century CE to establish His kingdom, not about Christ destroying a divided kingdom that can't really be identified as a kingdom two thousand years after the time of His first advent.

I find no evidence that the Roman Empire was destroyed at the first advent. The Roman Empire was sufficiently alive in AD 70 to destroy the Jewish system of things and the Temple.

The new world order is at hand, on earth
The world wide reality has move to the Age of Enlightenment in Christ.
The entire world wide reality is finally moving to Christianity. Everywhere the O.T. Mosaic system is crumbling and falling by the way side, so as to give way, fully, to the N.T.Christian system.

I find most of your Post is obscure. The new world order will only be established when Christ returns. I believe that when Christ returns that the world in general will be in spiritual darkness.
Isaiah 60:1–3 (KJV): 1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[genuineoriginal]

Greetings again genuineoriginal, I find no evidence that the Roman Empire was destroyed at the first advent. The Roman Empire was sufficiently alive in AD 70 to destroy the Jewish system of things and the Temple.

Jesus had to come and die as the suffering servant (Mashiach ben Yoseph) before He could return as the righteous king (Mashiach ben David).
The prophecies stated that Jerusalem was to have been saved after being sacked by armies of the nations (Zechariah 14:2-3).
This was supposed to have happened in the first century in 70 CE, but the children of Israel had been condemned to a great period of time in exile (great tribulation) for their lack of repentance, so the prophesies about Jerusalem being saved were put back until after the time of exile was completed, more than 1900 years and counting.
The punishment of the children of Israel with the great exile had to be fulfilled before the salvation of Jerusalem could happen.
The prophecies only make sense when you look at them in light of God's plans for the children of Israel.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again genuineoriginal,

Jesus had to come and die as the suffering servant before He could return as the righteous king. The prophecies stated that Jerusalem was to have been saved after being sacked by armies of the nations (Zechariah 14:2-3).
This was supposed to have happened in the first century in 70 CE, but the children of Israel had been condemned to a great period of time in exile (great tribulation) for their lack of repentance, so the prophesies about Jerusalem being saved were put back until after the time of exile was completed, more than 1900 years and counting. The punishment of the children of Israel with the great exile had to be fulfilled before the salvation of Jerusalem could happen. The prophecies only make sense when you look at them in light of God's plans for the children of Israel.

Zechariah 14:2-3 is speaking of future events and was not in any way applicable to AD70 as it was the Roman Army that attacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple not the armies of the nations as required by Zechariah’s prophecy. AD70 was God’s judgements on the nation for slaying Jesus, the Son of God.
Matthew 21:37–44 (KJV): 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Verse 44 is a link to Daniel 2 where the individual may identify with the stone that will smite the image on the feet. Thus individuals could have repented before AD70 and Paul is an example, but the nation as a whole did not and would not repent as their hearts were hardened as predicted in Isaiah 6:9-10.

I agree that many OT prophecies can only be understood “in light of God's plans for the children of Israel”, but in the period from the crucifixion to the Second Advent is concerning the individuals, both Jews and Gentiles who identified with the salvation available by identifying by faith in the death and resurrection of Christ and the coming Kingdom of Christ upon the earth at his return. The Book of Revelation is for these, the servants of Jesus Christ Revelation 1:1-3. The children of Israel fade into the background in this period and remarkably at the time for the Second Advent they have been brought back into their land so that the many prophecies can be fulfilled including Zechariah 12:2-3.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[genuineoriginal]

Greetings again genuineoriginal, Zechariah 14:2-3 is speaking of future events and was not in any way applicable to AD70 as it was the Roman Army that attacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple not the armies of the nations as required by Zechariah’s prophecy. AD70 was God’s judgements on the nation for slaying Jesus, the Son of God.
Matthew 21:37–44 (KJV): 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

You are making the mistake of assuming that the Old Testament prophecies about the time of the end and the New Testament prophecies about the time of the end are speaking about the same time period.

The Old Testament prophecies about the time of the end were set around the time of the first century CE, but the New Testament prophecies had to push the time of the end out several thousand years to accommodate the great exile of the children of Israel for their refusal to repent.

the nation as a whole did not and would not repent as their hearts were hardened as predicted in Isaiah 6:9-10.

Isaiah 6:9-12 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. 11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, 12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.​

The verses say that the blindness and deafness would last until the Babylonian exile.

I agree that many OT prophecies can only be understood “in light of God's plans for the children of Israel”, but in the period from the crucifixion to the Second Advent is concerning the individuals, both Jews and Gentiles who identified with the salvation available by identifying by faith in the death and resurrection of Christ and the coming Kingdom of Christ upon the earth at his return. The Book of Revelation is for these, the servants of Jesus Christ Revelation 1:1-3. The children of Israel fade into the background in this period and remarkably at the time for the Second Advent they have been brought back into their land so that the many prophecies can be fulfilled including Zechariah 12:2-3.

It is a mistake to discount how much God's plans for the children of Israel shape the prophecies in the New Testament.
For example, in Revelation 18:4 is says, "Come out of her, my people."
Most Christian Eschatologies assume that "my people" is referring to Christians instead of the children of Israel.
Most Christian Eschatologies also assume that Babylon in Revelation is not referring to the second exile of the children of Israel but is referring to one of the many denominations of Christianity.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again genuineoriginal,

You are making the mistake of assuming that the Old Testament prophecies about the time of the end and the New Testament prophecies about the time of the end are speaking about the same time period.

The Old Testament prophecies about the time of the end were set around the time of the first century CE, but the New Testament prophecies had to push the time of the end out several thousand years to accommodate the great exile of the children of Israel for their refusal to repent.

I cannot agree that the OT prophecies speak about the nation of Israel in the first century. Rather they speak of what will happen with the return of Jesus to establish His Kingdom upon the earth, for example Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44 and Zechariah 14:1-4,9,16. His first advent was destined to be his time as the Suffering Servant, not the exalted King. The suffering, crucifixion, death and resurrection was predetermined all the time by God the Father Acts 2:23, not an alternative plan because of Israel’s refusal to repent.

Isaiah 6:9-12: 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. 11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
The verses say that the blindness and deafness would last until the Babylonian exile.

Isaiah 6 had a partial fulfilment in Isaiah’s day, but this was only the framework of what was to be repeated in a greater way in the time of Christ. Isaiah 6:9-10 is quoted by Jesus in Matthew 13:14-15 where it states that the blindness of the Jews and their hardness of heart was a fulfilment of this prophecy of Isaiah. Also at the end of his public ministry the Apostle John also quotes Isaiah 6:9-10 to indicate their blindness and hardness of hearts in John 12:39-41, indicating that the Jews had reached a point that was inevitable because of their hardness of heart. Thus the forsaking of the land would be primarily in AD70.

It is a mistake to discount how much God's plans for the children of Israel shape the prophecies in the New Testament.
For example, in Revelation 18:4 is says, "Come out of her, my people."
Most Christian Eschatologies assume that "my people" is referring to Christians instead of the children of Israel.
Most Christian Eschatologies also assume that Babylon in Revelation is not referring to the second exile of the children of Israel but is referring to one of the many denominations of Christianity.

I believe that this is speaking of the need to separate from the Apostate Church and the Apostate political system, mainly the Roman Catholic Church.

Kind regards
Trevor