I am certainly finding it hard to follow your detail.
I have already quoted 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 to show that the return of Jesus and the establishment of the Kingdom was future to Paul’s time, and I believe that the return of Jesus is the time when the dead are raised, and this will be the first resurrection. But you seem to indicate that the first resurrection has already occurred. You have adopted the teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus:
Again this is an area where I find it difficult to understand your detail. I cannot yet grasp your overall view, and where the various bits of detail (as you understand them) fit is very confusing, even to an EE, though in Australia the EEs were my supervisors. I was classified as technical staff. We were less educated. My detail was mainly Circuit Diagrams and how they worked and Wiring Diagrams and these do not help in a Biblical discussion. In my meeting I am the librarian and also record the meetings on mp3 and distribute them together with any slides used. This may not help either in a discussion, but I have a large personal library and I am interested in books and some of these help if I am careful.
At the sounding of the seventh trumpet in Revelation, the kingdom is finally given to Jesus to rule. This happens after the events of the seven seals (the exile of the children of Israel) and the first six trumpets. The time between the seventh trumpet in Revelation and the battle at Har Megiddo is taken up by the seven bowls of God's wrath against the nations for their abuses against the children of Israel during the exile. Zechariah 14:12-15 begins with the battle at Har Meggido in Revelation 19:17-21. The kingdom of Jesus that reins over the nations for 1 thousand years begins with that battle to subjugate the nations.
Numbers should add up because of Math.
You have a different perspective of the events depicted in the Apocalypse. My understanding is that the Seals are from AD96 -312, the demise of the Pagan Roman Empire. The Trumpets are from AD312 to the French Revolution. The Vials are from the French Revolution to the coming of Christ in the 6th Vial Revelation 16:15. Armageddon is also in the 6th Vial Revelation 16:16. We are now in the period of the 6th Vial. We have the same subdivision between the Roman East which was military as in Daniel 8-11, and Roman West which was religious Daniel 7. The military is overthrown first and the Kingdom of God in Jerusalem is established, after this judgements then come upon the Papacy as they do not submit to the rule of Christ Revelation 17:12-14. I imagine that you subscribe to some form of Futurist view of the Book of Revelation, while I subscribe to the Continuous Historical view.
Your response has added nothing in the way to help me understand your overall view and detail. Rather your statements seem to have contradictions and obscurities.
It is not my intention to attempt to follow your obscure reasoning and ideas, especially when you do not give a clear explanation of your unique perspective.
In my previous post I considered Daniel 11:40–45 depicting the invasion of the land of Israel by the King of the North. The chapter division could obscure the next part of Daniel:
Your lack of knowledge of the Bible is appalling.
Psalm 90:12 12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom. |
Please consider the verses about the fifth seal:
Revelation 6:9-11 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. |
The seven seals are not about the Pagan Roman Empire, they are about the children of Israel.
You have stopped making any sense.
The Papacy is not "Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth". This idea comes from the adversary who wants to divide Christianity into warring factions because "if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."
No, my view is not Futurist if I believe that the seven seals began in 66 CE.
Each seal depicts a prominent event that occurs during that particular time period. The first seal a period of peace in the Pagan Roman Empire during AD96-183, the second seal a time of bloodshed AD183-211. We have had other times of peace and bloodshed, but that does not mean that both of these seals have continued for 1900 years. Similarly with the fifth seal there was a period of severe persecution of the Christians by Diocletian AD303-311.
The scene of the seals is about the Roman Empire and the Christians, not the Jews who were dispersed in AD70.
I believe we are in the period of the sixth bowl, just before the coming of Jesus in Revelation 16:15.
Then you have not properly examined Daniel 7 that forms a basis for a correct understanding of the language of the book of Revelation. You have adopted the Jesuit teaching that tried to discountenance the Protestant view of the Catholic Church during the Reformation.
The purpose of the Book of Revelation was the message given by Jesus to his servants, so that they would recognise their own times in relation to the ultimate return of Jesus. It was to encourage them that Christ was in control of all these events, and was also in control of their own lives as faithful servants waiting for his return and ultimately to raise them from the dead and be with them for the kingdom to come.
As long as you believe that, your Eschatology will be no better than that of the Preterists and Dispensationalists.
You do know that Daniel 7 was written about the children of Israel, right? It is the same with the Book of revelation.
I know nothing about the Jesuit teaching, but I do know that the Protestant Eschatological claims that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon is wrong, divisive, and has kept Christians at odds with each other.
I find it interesting that you label various views, but I question whether your own overall view is a very partial perspective, held by maybe a faction of evangelicals or similar. I also question whether your view of the 5th seal and some other particular details are even held by this faction or is your own unique view. I suggest that the view I presented has been given by many writers and expositors over the centuries, but your view on these things is the first time I have heard such a suggestion.
I suggest that the 10 horns of the fourth beast and the little horn that arose is not directly speaking about the children of Israel. It is talking about the rise of the Papacy and how they persecuted the believers for a period of 1260 years.
You are welcome to determine your own understanding of these various prophecies. Possibly Daniel 7 is a good place to start. Who do you consider is the little horn of Daniel 7?
Please keep in mind that the many writers and expositors over the centuries have attempted to interpret the prophecies in favor of their particular denomination.
The four beasts are in order:
If your interpretation of the prophecy is based on some arbitrary time period when Roman Catholic believers were persecuting Protestant believers, then it wrong.
Titus, who led the campaign against Jerusalem in 70 CE, is the little horn of Daniel 7.
With any interpretation we need to review and adjust if necessary, but once the general overall view is firmly established then this will only be an adjustment of minor detail. I suggest that what you have presented is a bit speculative, and also in my opinion has a wrong emphasis on the children of Israel, while the context is concerning events as they would affect the believers from the time of John to the coming and revealing of Christ. I notice that you support some form of Pentecostalism, and my experience of some of these is that there are many diverse opinions based upon their different expositors who gain some influence for some time, but often fail in the long run. One of the problems and this could be your personal position as well, is that they claim Spirit guidance in what they pronounce, and once an opinion is stated it is difficult to retract because they believe that the Spirit has spoken, and in a way endorsed the individual.
I agree.
This is obscure. The four kingdoms of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 last from the Babylonian captivity until the return of Christ.
They represent the subdivision of the Roman Empire and Christ will smite the image upon the feet at his return, showing that they represent the nations today, especially the old Roman territory.
I suggest that the following is speaking of the Papacy and the little horn power will be destroyed by Christ at his coming. This certainly is not describing Titus (another Pentecostal speculation? or a “genuine original”):
If the general overall view is wrong, then the entire thing needs to be reevaluated starting from the basic principles.
All interpretation of prophecy is speculative.
If you come from any of the traditional denominations that have a historical view of prophecy, you will begin with some form of Replacement Theology, which will slant any interpretation.
Not quite. The four kingdoms of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are from the Babylonian captivity until the first advent of Christ.
Like I said, foolishness.
As you are aware, the "saints of the most High" in the prophecy refers to the children of Israel.
These verses have not happened yet, the children of Israel have not inherited the everlasting kingdom that is promised in these verses.
I do not consider that the interpretation of prophecy is speculative. The headings that I supplied to Psalm 72 in the OP are not speculative, but a simple summary of the content of the verses. An understanding of the detail of Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2, Zechariah 14 is not speculative, as the terms are simple and clear, and Daniel 2 even gives its own interpretation of the image so that King Nebuchadnezzar could understand.
I do not subscribe to any Replacement Theology. I do not know what is Replacement Theology, but I should imagine that some of these would interpret Isaiah 2:1-4 as the Church, but I certainly believe that this is talking about Jesus upon the throne of David in literal Jerusalem during the 1000 years.
I cannot accept your perspective above and the detail that you then describe. Psalm 72, Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2, Zechariah 14 form a framework to understand the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years.