ECT Predestination and Foreknowledge in Scripture

themuzicman

themuzicman

Well-known member
I find it interesting that many claim that all things are foreknown and/or predestined, and claim that this is based upon Scripture, and yet I find that most haven't actually looked to see what is foreknown and predestined.

This word study is fairly short, so I thought I'd post it here:

Acts 2:23 delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
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Christ's death.


Acts 4:27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy [t]servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
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Again, in some way, at some time, Christ's death was predestined.

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
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Those who are saved are predestined (and foreknown) to be "conformed to the image of the son."


God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
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Israel.

1 Cor 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory
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So, we have wisdom that God (presumably) predestined to be known.

Eph 1:He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will
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Our Adoption.

also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
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Inheritance.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, [a]to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
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Some saved people.

17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18 knowing that you were not [r]redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
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And Jesus Christ.



That's it. There's nothing here to suggest an eternal foreknowledge or predestination of all things. There's just a few, and the ones about us are all post-salvation.
 
chrysostom

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
it might be possible for God to know what a free will will do after it is created
-but
-not before
-how do you explain the angels that rebelled?
 
D

Danoh

New member
chrysostom said:
it might be possible for God to know what a free will will do after it is created
-but
-not before
-how do you explain the angels that rebelled?
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How do you explain God's answer to that rebellion BEFORE He created Lucifer?

Then again, your question makes it obvious for the umpteenth time that you attempt to reason these things out absent of an open Bible and until it reveals its own answers.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
A few verses that 'should' be unsettling
1 John 3:20 Matthew 10:29-30 Isaiah 46:9-10 Psalm 139:4 Psalm 139:15-16 Ephesians 1:11 John 21:17
Some of these, you might contest on exegetical grounds, but a good many of them simply stand alone. They are complete stand-alone sentences.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
Lon said:
A few verses that 'should' be unsettling
1 John 3:20 Matthew 10:29-30 Isaiah 46:9-10 Psalm 139:4 Psalm 139:15-16 Ephesians 1:11 John 21:17
Some of these, you might contest on exegetical grounds, but a good many of them simply stand alone. They are complete stand-alone sentences.
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I always laugh at people that quote Isaiah 46:9-10 and completely ignore Isaiah 46:11

Isaiah 46:11
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.​

 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
[Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
it might be possible for God to know what a free will will do after it is created
-but
-not before
-how do you explain the angels that rebelled?
What does this have to do with foreknowledge and predestination?
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themuzicman said:
What does this have to do with foreknowledge and predestination?
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Foreknowledge notwithstanding, everything God created was for setting Himself into it and the setting of His created object into Himself [perfect union]. Free will is the only means of accomplishing and sustaining holiness, that which can only to stand in His Presence. [cf Exo 33:20 KJV] The Angels rebelled by choosing wrongly and they had no advocate. Man fell because Adam chose incorrectly and he had no advocate. Jesus suceeded and redeemed by his choosing correctly and now is able to keep man by man choosing and sustaining his relationship with Him for which Jesus is his advocate. Man since the cross is the one who has an advocate with God that when he fails, by wrong choosing and upon repentance, he has One in heaven to restore him to holiness that upon his death there will be no disappointment.
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B

blackbirdking

New member
themuzicman said:
I find it interesting that many claim that all things are foreknown and/or predestined, and claim that this is based upon Scripture,...
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If I truly believe that my life and death was truth before I live and die, the Bible has no relevance to me; what is to be will be. There's no reason to study scripture; no reason for anything. We're all just pawns by a 'god' who is playing against himself.

Therefore, discussing Scripture with one who has such a presupposition of God is futile because it was written by a 'god' who plays both sides.

For Calvinism, it's not about Scripture; it's about a presupposition of the character God.

Each one interprets scripture by his own presuppositions; otherwise, we would all agree.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
blackbirdking said:
If I truly believe that my life and death was truth before I live and die, the Bible has no relevance to me; what is to be will be. There's no reason to study scripture; no reason for anything. We're all just pawns by a 'god' who is playing against himself.

Therefore, discussing Scripture with one who has such a presupposition of God is futile because it was written by a 'god' who plays both sides.

For Calvinism, it's not about Scripture; it's about a presupposition of the character God.

Each one interprets scripture by his own presuppositions; otherwise, we would all agree.
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Well, if you don't have proper reasoning for what is the freewill of man, you will never understand predestination. Clue: His foreknowledge is that which equips God in His [Fore]choosing.

OMT: The Death of Jesus was NOT predestinated, as you deem it was, but foreordained. In that Jesus didn't have all the details spelled out to him, He could have said no to it all at anytime HE CHOSE.
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
the mu



Is there a scripture that says its not ?
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I point you to the entire council of Scripture, which does not make this claim.

And if we look at the purpose for which man was created (Genesis 1:26-28), being given dominion would require that man be free to exercise that dominion. If everything were predestined, man couldn't have dominion at all, and God would fail at His purpose in creating.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
themuzicman said:
I point you to the entire council of Scripture, which does not make this claim.

And if we look at the purpose for which man was created (Genesis 1:26-28), being given dominion would require that man be free to exercise that dominion. If everything were predestined, man couldn't have dominion at all, and God would fail at His purpose in creating.
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You posted scripture, but it did not say what I asked you!
 
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