Philetus
New member
bar Jonah
Date: August 4th, 2006, 11:40 PM
post #22 in the thread "is God in time?"
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30615&page=2&pp=15
I'm not sure I'm doing this right (I'm sure I"m not) ... but this is a great post! Worth the read.
Date: August 4th, 2006, 11:40 PM
post #22 in the thread "is God in time?"
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30615&page=2&pp=15
I'm not sure I'm doing this right (I'm sure I"m not) ... but this is a great post! Worth the read.
A little note... My pastor is aquainted with Phillip Yancey and reports that since writing "Disappointment with God," he has joined the Open Theist camp! Hallelujah! (And therefore he certainly believes God is in time, which is the only rational view.)
It would certainly be a horrible thing if God didn't experience time (chronologically). Some say that He exists "outside of time" (which is just plain absurd on its face), or that He sees all of time simultaneously (which is nearly as absurd). Either of these things would have terrible implications toward the nature and character of God, and our relationships with Him.
Any entity that is "outside of time" would be, by definition, an inanimate object, a static thing, absolutely unchanging. Any thing or being that experiences any change whatsoever must therefore experience chronology, and this is measured by what we call "time." Thus, one has a dilemma. Either God is absolutely unchanging, or God experiences things chronologically.
An inanimate object is not relational. And this goes directly to the issue of theodicy - the theological study of God's righteousness. Why, you may ask? Because God is a living God. He is personal, relational, loving and good. As Bob pointed out so clearly in his recent debate, these attributes (the greatest and most important attributes of God) are inextricably tied to each other. Remove one, and the others fall apart. If God is not relational, How can He be loving? And if He is not loving, how can He be righteous? A being that is righteous without being loving? Who is loving without being relational? And if He is not relational, He isn't personal, and if He isn't personal, how can one lift Him up as a living God? The truth is that all living things experience change. A perfect acorn won't remain an acorn, and a perfect baby (like baby Jesus) wouldn't remain a baby! A perfect God will not be static and absolutely unchanging! Some things will not change, but some things certainly will. God does change, even in extreme ways. The Word became flesh! And then the Word became sin!
On the other hand, if God simply exists throughout all of time simultaneously, such that He sees all of time at the same time, this is equally abyssmal. This would mean that God sees every Christian as an unbeliever. From God's perspective, you are both saved and unsaved, and even non-existant, yet standing right next to Him in your heavenly "oiketerion" body, together looking down at you right now. Also, from God's perspective, the Word has not yet become flesh, has become flesh (is born), is alive, is on the cross, is dead and unrisen, and is risen, all at once! Which means that from His perspective your sins have and have not been paid for! Just as confusing is the question of the Old Testament saints who died in a salvific relationship with God, who abided in "Abraham's Bosom" up until the cross... for what reason? If their sins had been paid for from God's perspective, why would God require them to wait? Just translate them into the "eternal now" rather than making them wait in Sheol for centuries or millenia until the cross and the resurrection! It just doesn't make sense.
Worst of all, if God exists throughout all time simultaneously so that He sees all of time at the same time, this has a further implication. How can God possibly interact with His creation? How can He be responsive to it, and to us? God looks at the creation, and He sees it in a certain state. Let's describe that state as being like the alphabet, from A to Z. He sees events take place in that way. And He wills to respond to it, injecting Himself into His creation, affecting it in some way, so that it is changed. Well, now creation is different from how He perceived it! He saw all of time, from beginning to end, and now it is not what He perceived! Now, instead of "L M N O P," it is "L P O N M" in the middle. So, if this is how creation is, how could He have seen it otherwise? This is a ridiculous paradox that proves how false and impossible this view must necessarily be.
Time is, in fact, a characteristic of existence. Granted, in our fallible human language, we construct ideas such that we may say God is "inside" of time. But Time isn't an environment greater than Him, in which He can move in any direction. It is simply a characteristic of existence of any real thing.
It would be a terrible thing if God wasn't "in time," if He didn't experience things in chronological order, similar to how we do. Does He experience duration as we do? Well, can you imagine a human being displaying that degree of patience and "longsuffering" for literally thousands of years on end? I sure can't. So, being an eternal God, certainly He has a different perception of what "a long time" means. But the fact remains that He experiences time in order. He sees before and after. Action and consequence. And He responds to us! We act, and then He reacts! And we react to Him, and He reacts to us, yet again!
Jeremiah 18 is both a beautiful and terrible display of this responsiveness! God actually said He would do something, but now He will not do it. And then again, God said He wouldn't do something, but now He will! He goes back on His word, because repentance is more important to Him. Today, we can even hasten His return! It's not set in stone; we can affect when it will happen! Because the future is open, unsettled.
Thankfully, our God experiences Time, before and after, chronology. First was yesterday, then there is today, and then there will be tomorrow, not just from our perspective but from His. Anything else would be a nightmare, in which our God is reduced to little more than a wooden idol, an inanimate trinket, no different from the pagan idols He proved Himself against in the book of Isaiah.
There is no end to God's days! Eternity is an infinite amount of time! Not a total lack of time!
Great post bar Jonah!
Last edited:
